General CV related discussions.

[1MajorKoenig]

7 minutes ago, Foxhound421a said:

Did they bolt a Jumo 210 onto it somewhere?!

The B/C Stuka did use a Jumo 210 which is basically an equivalent to the Kestrel.

 

You are probably referring to the Jumo 211 Variants which are larger and more powerful. Actually the later Stukas (“D”)  in fact used the larger 211. Basically the Jumo 211 isn’t far off the DB high performance engines but are more rugged and heavy.

[Pikkozoikum]

34 minutes ago, Foxhound421a said:

I used real life speed to show how silly the difference is the Stuka dive bomber with an sc1000 1000kg bomb cruises at 156 knots! Did they bolt a Jumo 210 onto it somewhere?! The wyvern with a much lighter bomb load of 14 RP3s weight wise that’s 1,148lb that’s about 521kg yet the plane only goes 142knots. I know the wyvern was a very troubled aircraft but if the Soviets can get their troubled warships working well beyond their predicted capability let alone their real life capability then I think we can pretend they got the wyvern working as intended.

 

 

Don't discuss the plane design of WoWS, it's the so stupid.

D3A is a stock aircraft

The TB and DB of Hakuryu (J5N) was in realife a land-based high altitude fighter, who carried only a 250kg bomb. So that aircraft didn't launch from a Aircraft and was not a bomber, but here it is.

[Molly_Delaney]

For true historical accuracy, the Yorktown class carriers should have B-25 Mitchells as an option....

That's USS Hornet, USS Enterprise and USS Yorktown.

 

WoWs is a game so some liberties have been taken for various reasons....

[floribe2000]

I removed a bunch of insulting and very aggressive posts.

 

You don't have to agree with others but comparisons with terminal diseases and similar stuff are not allowed and will be sanctioned.

 

I also removed most of the replies to the removed posts.

[DeviousDave02]

So messing around in Ops today and.. well.. welp.. so they finally killed off E.L's Torpedo bombers with the Captain skill reeeeework 2 electric boogaloo.

 

The old Torpedo accel skill (+5 knots speed and - distance)  + Torpedo speed module (+5% speed) used to allow you to make the torps travel at a semi-usable speed of 38 knots (about the same as the British torps) which turned the TB's from being mind bending awful to just plain bad as you could at least try to catch a Cruiser with them where the low damage would still be noticeable.

 

The Captain skill rework now means they can't go above 35 knots (5% from module and 5% from Captain skill) meaning even a T4 Dreadnought era BB can now dodge them or just ignore them due to how little damage they do and the lead time on a Cruiser going full tilt has you having to drop with the Cruiser off screen to even have a hope of hitting (assuming the Cruiser doesn't just turn or slow down).

 

I'm currently running this Captain build on her with the plan to take EAP when I get to 20 points for the +71 damage to AP rockets as that is her main damage source and her DB's already have really good fire chance per bomb so adding 5% more seems a bit like overkill.

 

I'm thinking possibly Last Gasp for 21 with the left over point as the other 1 point options seem kinda meh (at least on their own and not as part of a fighter build).

 

Anyone got any other ideas on how to make this CV work? I guess you could double down on the secondaries and turn her into a GZ light with 7.2km guns with a 3/6.8 sec reload but other than that or a fighter build I can't see any way to make her TB's useful enough to draw points away from buffing her two actual squadrons.

[El2aZeR]

9 hours ago, Zapakata82 said:

Is there a list about how many planes the CVs have? It feels like they have 1000 planes attacking all the time and CVs running faster than a cruiser... give me a break...

 

Quote

Comparison strike plane reserves RTS (balanced loadout as they were at the end of RTS) vs rework (assuming match time of 14 minutes and all regen upgrades, -1 TB and -2 DBs to account for starting delay):

 

Hosho - 16 (16 TBs) vs 75 (29 RF / 23 DBs / 23 TBs)
Ryujo - 38 (19 DBs / 19 TBs) vs 72 (27 RF / 22 DBs / 23 TBs)
Shokaku - 48 (24 DBs / 24 TBs) vs 84 (30 RF / 26 DBs / 28 TBs)
Hakuryu - 70 (30 DBs / 40 TBs) vs 94 (27 RF / 30 DBs / 37 TBs)

 

Langley - 20 (10 DBs / 10 TBs) vs 73 (27 RF / 23 DBs / 23 TBs)
Independence / Ranger - 25 (13 DBs / 12 TBs) vs 77 (27 RF / 27 DBs / 23 TBs)
Lexington - 52 (36 DBs / 16 TBs) vs 82 (30 RF / 26 DBs / 26 TBs)
Midway - 81 (40 DBs / 41 TBs) vs 81 (27 RF / 30 DBs / 24 TBs)

 

 Saipan - 24 (24 TBs) vs 49 (18 RF / 15 DBs / 16 TBs)
Enterprise - 53 (28 DBs / 25 TBs) vs 95 (39 RF / 26 DBs / 30 TBs)
Graf Zeppelin - 56 (29 DBs / 27 TBs) vs 73 (25 RF / 22 DBs / 26 TBs)
Kaga - 57 (14 DBs / 43 TBs) vs 131 (35 RF / 49 DBs / 47 TBs)

 

Combined with how generally pathetic AA strength in the rework is yes, CVs practically have unlimited plane reserves.

 

1 hour ago, DeviousDave02 said:

Anyone got any other ideas on how to make this CV work?

 

Spam DBs, go rockets on cruisers, use TBs only as in between or last resort.

[Capra76]

1 hour ago, DeviousDave02 said:

So messing around in Ops today and.. well.. welp.. so they finally killed off E.L's Torpedo bombers with the Captain skill reeeeework 2 electric boogaloo.

 

The old Torpedo accel skill (+5 knots speed and - distance)  + Torpedo speed module (+5% speed) used to allow you to make the torps travel at a semi-usable speed of 38 knots

 

I thought that CV torpedoes have an arming time rather than an arming distance, and as such any change to their speed is irrelevant since all it does is determine how far from the target you have to drop them.

 

Could someone who knows more confirm?

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

 

I thought that CV torpedoes have an arming time rather than an arming distance, and as such any change to their speed is irrelevant since all it does is determine how far from the target you have to drop them.

 

Could someone who knows more confirm?

Aerial torpedoes do indeed use timer for arming.

 

 But @DeviousDave02 is talking about torpedo speed, which is... not the best for Erich Lowenhart. And while improving speed against "perfect broadsides" doesn't do much, the moment ship turns away, you need all the speed you can muster. And E.L. torps are outrun even by destroyers universally considered slow.

[Pikkozoikum]

5 hours ago, Capra76 said:

 

I thought that CV torpedoes have an arming time rather than an arming distance, and as such any change to their speed is irrelevant since all it does is determine how far from the target you have to drop them.

 

Could someone who knows more confirm?

Not sure, what the real question is, but torpedos should have an arming time and changing the speed should change the arming distance.

 

Arming time * Torpedo speed = Arming distance

 

I don't know any arming times, but if a Torpedo would have 2s arming time and 35 knots (18 m/s) then

2s * 18m/s = 36m

 

with 38 knots (19.5m/s)

2s * 19.5m/s = 39m

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Arming time * Torpedo speed = Arming distance

True. If you take more speed, they will cover more distance. 

I took the "shorter aiming time"". Now I can drop torps between islands... 

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

True. If you take more speed, they will cover more distance. 

I took the "shorter aiming time"". Now I can drop torps between islands... 

I use that on my Kaga, since she has quite long arming distances/times. But fact, they called it 10% less arming distance, not time.

But Kaga has around 800m arming distance, using 5% speed increases it to ~840m

 

 

My Kaga Captain currently. Using Yamamoto, because why not xD

[DidYouMissMee]

The fact a CV player can focus you from the word go and just keep hammering you over and over and you're completely useless to the matter unless your own cv comes to help or there is nearby AA honestly baffles me what are these edited* vehicles even in the game they are Over ABUSED i have just had 3 game in a row where  i have soley been focused by these Excuse of players Playing a mini Game and get rewarded with such effortless kills all they do is throw squad after squad at the same player. At least have option Not TO be MATCHMAKER'd with these edited* This class of ship alone makes me want to fully delete my account its infuriating theres is no skill at all. half the time i rather suicicde into a enemy DD just to piss of the CV player thats been focusing me the whole game.

Or you know this is the most talked about problem right now maybe remove the OverPowered things.. just a suggestion for the health of the game but hey what do i know i only play DD/Cruiser/Battleship must be real hard being a devoloper and coming up with a crazy [edited]lazy vehicle like A CV to rewards worse than average players for clicking at the right time and being able to click to move.. absolute edited*

 

Edit: watch your language please.

[Nov_A]

13 hours ago, DeviousDave02 said:

Anyone got any other ideas on how to make this CV work? I guess you could double down on the secondaries and turn her into a GZ light with 7.2km guns with a 3/6.8 sec reload but other than that or a fighter build I can't see any way to make her TB's useful enough to draw points away from buffing her two actual squadrons.

Because you have to focus on the bombs in Löwenhardt.

 

They are your actual main damage source and only viable anti-DD armament, against cruisers you have AP rockets and torps are just more of a filler when your bombers are in cooldown. The torps are not as bad as the attack planes on Kaga or Ark Royal, as you can still harrass BBs for somewhat reliable damage. Focus people stuck nose in or stationary, try to predict their movement and pass the waiting time for your returning bombers with some additional damage or DCP triggers on floods, because the bombs haven an absurd and very N I C E base fire chance of 69%.

 

In terms of commander skills, dont pick sight stabilization, all planes on Löwenhardt are pretty cozy to handle. Invest its points into better AP rockets, I went with a full torp buff and no Bomber Flight Control to enhance overall DPS during bomber downtime.

[Capra76]

10 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Not sure, what the real question is, but torpedos should have an arming time and changing the speed should change the arming distance.

 

If the limiting factor on a drop is time rather than distance, and increasing the speed increases the distance by the same amount, what exactly is the benefit of increasing the speed?

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

 

If the limiting factor on a drop is time rather than distance, and increasing the speed increases the distance by the same amount, what exactly is the benefit of increasing the speed?

Another time depending factor is cont. DPS of the AA. The longer you are inside, the more damage you take. So technically you could drop further away and with more speed, it's easier to hit.

Another point is, when you drop from behind and the target is sailing away. Then faster torpedos make the hit easier.

For IJN the torpedo speed is not the best stat, since those torpedos are already fast and in general it's like you say, it doesn't give you much when you drop form the side

 

[Capra76]

16 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Another time depending factor is cont. DPS of the AA. The longer you are inside, the more damage you take. So technically you could drop further away and with more speed, it's easier to hit.

Another point is, when you drop from behind and the target is sailing away. Then faster torpedos make the hit easier.

For IJN the torpedo speed is not the best stat, since those torpedos are already fast and in general it's like you say, it doesn't give you much when you drop form the side

 

 

Both strike me as being marginal at best, and the starting point of this sub-thread was:

 

 

18 hours ago, DeviousDave02 said:

So messing around in Ops today and.. well.. welp.. so they finally killed off E.L's Torpedo bombers with the Captain skill reeeeework 2 electric boogaloo.

 

The old Torpedo accel skill (+5 knots speed and - distance)  + Torpedo speed module (+5% speed) used to allow you to make the torps travel at a semi-usable speed of 38 knots

 

So I'm at a loss as to how the change kills off EL's torpedo bombers.

[Fritzblitzer]

I stayed away from  WowS for a whole year, mostly due to CV's game design and how it is imho so bad that it ruins the rest of the game. Returned a month ago. Still terrible.
Where are we in the discussion today and is there any light in the end of the tunnel regarding the CV design? I know a lot of old players that share my views and I'm not looking to start old arguments, I'm just curious if WG has said anything about the CV future

My main concerns are:
1. Too fast into the game, and too much early spotting. 
2. Too fast between attack waves - no longer can you feel any discernable effect from downing entire squadrons. You'll be swarmed within 30 seconds again. A CV can nowadays make life miserable for any specific player. No hard counter exists.
3. Too long delay at the end when the hopelessly outmatched CV's retreat to a corner, making the games drag on
4. This is perhaps the most important - TOO HARD TO KILL / DISABLE. A DD that spots a CV immediately cauases the CV to turn and run, while bombing said DD. A good DD player cannot burn a good CV, they can't torp them. They have to hope a BB snipes them from across the map.

5. NO CV has to pay for their mistakes in the same way other ships do, but they SHOULD pay for being spotted.

6. Ruining the game for 11 players so that 1 player can have their fun? Bad design.
7. CV CAN be balanced and should imho be in WoWs. Do not suggest banning them, we need AA as a variable in the game. 
 

Solutions could be
1. halve CV HP : Historically CV's weren't built to withstand direct large calibre fire in the same way other ships were. Especially not while keeping planes in the air. Halving their HP would be realistic in that any CV who would take the same punishment as a BB would never be able to launch planes unhindered.
All the fuel on deck, planes, personnel that are unprotected. It is frankly ridiculous how much HP they have.
2. Let them burn again. Of all the ships , CV's were the MOST vulnerable to fires. The old system of restricting plane launches when burning was a GREAT mechanic.

3. Introduce SPOTTER/radio squadrons for CV that would be the ONLY squadrons that actually spot for the team in real time.  You know, like they did historically.  Players would have to choose between launching attack or spotter aircraft.
4. Let aircraft take longer to launch. The shouldn't be able to launch straight away. Why WG didn't go with the historically and mechanically obvious choice of having to choose armament DURNG battle for your squads is something I still don't understand. Midway was won in part due to indecisive arming orders for japanese CV planes.  It would be an obvious game mechanic similar to choosing between AP and HE. Choose the "wrong" one and you're stuck reloading the other kind. 

Any or all of these suggestions could be added in steps until some semblance of fun and fairness returns to CV games.
I just had to get this off my chest and see if anyone knows what WG's intentions are. Seeing  how the rework in many ways made the game experience WORSE is a travesty to the "old" playerbase.

[DeviousDave02]

5 hours ago, Capra76 said:

So I'm at a loss as to how the change kills off EL's torpedo bombers.

Let me clarify, "kills them off for me" as a viable aircraft. I have no doubts that some of the CV 'god tier' players out there will be able to Yolo no scope 360 blaze a DD with pinpoint precision, blind dropping over an island while under fire form a dozen Cruisers AA and being chased by a fighter squadron while minting a sideways drift of their CV hull to avoid a torpedo storm from all directions and sipping a martini at the same time.. 

 

I on the other hand find that due to the way the insanely slow speed means that when a Cruiser (or faster Battleship for that matter) now turns away from the incoming torpedoes the very slow speed gives them a decent chance of outright outrunning/ completing the turn away before impact or at least keeping ahead until they clear the path of the incoming torps.

 

Or at least that's how I have found it as I could fairly accurately drop most Op targets with the E.L torpedo bombers before the Captain Reeework but after have found it much, much more difficult when a target begins to turn away from the incoming torps as in situations they previously they would have hit I now find they miss.

 

I mean it could possibly be confirmation bias, as I do realize that increasing the speed = Increasing the arming distance (why non of my other CV's run/ran torp accel)

 

Either way I have taken @El2aZeR advise and dropped them fully only using them as an in-between against BB's and I am instead focusing on getting more gud with her DB's  

[Estaca_de_Bares]

Call me a masochist, but I'm tempted to try fullfilling the last task from the Yamamoto campaign that I have left (five times top of the team in TX CVs in randoms and IIRC ranked too) by profitting from the current chaos. I know I said that I wouldn't bring my CVs out of coop and operations not so long ago and I'm still noob-ish when it comes to reworked carriers, but chances like this don't happen every day. Even better, I'm at the qualifications in ranked so I have very little to lose.

 

Salute.

[AndyHill]

2 hours ago, Fritzblitzer said:

is there any light in the end of the tunnel regarding the CV design?

Yes! It's a train, though.

[Lordcrafty]

3 hours ago, DeviousDave02 said:

Let me clarify, "kills them off for me" as a viable aircraft. I have no doubts that some of the CV 'god tier' players out there will be able to Yolo no scope 360 blaze a DD with pinpoint precision, blind dropping over an island while under fire form a dozen Cruisers AA and being chased by a fighter squadron while minting a sideways drift of their CV hull to avoid a torpedo storm from all directions and sipping a martini at the same time.. 

 

I on the other hand find that due to the way the insanely slow speed means that when a Cruiser (or faster Battleship for that matter) now turns away from the incoming torpedoes the very slow speed gives them a decent chance of outright outrunning/ completing the turn away before impact or at least keeping ahead until they clear the path of the incoming torps.

 

Or at least that's how I have found it as I could fairly accurately drop most Op targets with the E.L torpedo bombers before the Captain Reeework but after have found it much, much more difficult when a target begins to turn away from the incoming torps as in situations they previously they would have hit I now find they miss.

 

I mean it could possibly be confirmation bias, as I do realize that increasing the speed = Increasing the arming distance (why non of my other CV's run/ran torp accel)

 

Either way I have taken @El2aZeR advise and dropped them fully only using them as an in-between against BB's and I am instead focusing on getting more gud with her DB's  

to put it bluntly, E.L torps are crap. Nobody can do well with them, in fact the skill involved here, is just not using them. Also, torping DDs is a waste of time, you're not meant to do things they can actually just dodge, sheesh and skill won't magically make the torps go faster either. I don't see how the rework killed off the torps when they were already dead in the first place. El2aZeR, one of the "god tier" players just told you pretty much not to use them too and so have several others.

[DeviousDave02]

1 minute ago, Lordcrafty said:

to put it bluntly, E.L torps are crap. Nobody can do well with them, in fact the skill involved here, is just not using them. Also, torping DDs is a waste of time, you're not meant to do things they can actually just dodge, sheesh and skill won't magically make the torps go faster either. I don't see how the rework killed off the torps when they were already dead in the first place. El2aZeR, one of the god tier players just told you pretty much not to use them too and so have several others.

And if you read what I wrote before flying off the handle

3 hours ago, DeviousDave02 said:

Either way I have taken @El2aZeR advise and dropped them fully only using them as an in-between against BB's and I am instead focusing on getting more gud with her DB's  

you would see I agreed with them....

 

I was answering the question of why I said what I originally did use them on CRUISERS (not DD's [that's just daft] unless your playing Ryujo... or Ark Royal... maybe) aka. why I USED to use them (with the speed increase mod) back before the Captain rework 2 which made that idea not work anymore

 

(Not that it was a particularly good idea in the first place - but I always feel obliged when I come across a devastatingly bad loadout or mechanic in a game to try and figure out how the Developers could possibly have imagine it would be used, Mainly as I struggle to accept that anyone wold be so dumb (and I'm being polite here) as to give their players a weapon or ability for a non beta or testing purpose that can't actually function in a live environment so I figured there must be some trick to them that WarGaming figured would make them useful - I now figure WarGaming is actually that "dumb")

 

Anyway let us all drop this subject and return to the usual scheduled topic of ALL CV'S MUST BURN [Insert random rant here] CV PLAYERS SHOULD BE HIT OVER THE HEAD WITH A GIANT 1:1 SCALE INFLATABLE DD (of your ship choice, only one small* payment to WarGaming needed, T&C applies, WARGAMING reserves the right to deliver a random DD from a shorter list of 6 possible ships instead of the one you wished for.)

 

*By small I mean give all your money 

[Lordcrafty]

50 minutes ago, DeviousDave02 said:

And if you read what I wrote before flying off the handle

you would see I agreed with them....

 

I was answering the question of why I said what I originally did use them on CRUISERS (not DD's [that's just daft] unless your playing Ryujo... or Ark Royal... maybe) aka. why I USED to use them (with the speed increase mod) back before the Captain rework 2 which made that idea not work anymore

 

(Not that it was a particularly good idea in the first place - but I always feel obliged when I come across a devastatingly bad loadout or mechanic in a game to try and figure out how the Developers could possibly have imagine it would be used, Mainly as I struggle to accept that anyone wold be so dumb (and I'm being polite here) as to give their players a weapon or ability for a non beta or testing purpose that can't actually function in a live environment so I figured there must be some trick to them that WarGaming figured would make them useful - I now figure WarGaming is actually that "dumb")

 

Anyway let us all drop this subject and return to the usual scheduled topic of ALL CV'S MUST BURN [Insert random rant here] CV PLAYERS SHOULD BE HIT OVER THE HEAD WITH A GIANT 1:1 SCALE INFLATABLE DD (of your ship choice, only one small* payment to WarGaming needed, T&C applies, WARGAMING reserves the right to deliver a random DD from a shorter list of 6 possible ships instead of the one you wished for.)

 

*By small I mean give all your money 

hold up, you edited that message that I responded to lol.

edit: I'm not stupid

second edit: I am stupid, I keep selectively reading only the first paragraph or the rest. Look at your first paragraph, where you seem to suggest that skill in CVs could make the torpedoes move fast enough to hit an evading DD. That's what I was alluding to, in nobody's hands are E.L torps good.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

5 hours ago, Fritzblitzer said:

Any or all of these suggestions could be added in steps until some semblance of fun and fairness returns to CV games.
I just had to get this off my chest and see if anyone knows what WG's intentions are.

Interesting suggestions. Too bad that WG will them completely, as spreadshiet says there can be no problem, as a problem would be a mistake in WGs design and WG doesn't do any failures in design...

And as WG seems to think that getting marginally more players for CVs on T4 (mostly) is a healthy result of the CV reeework, nothing will change...

So maybe You should just take another year-long break?!?

[DeviousDave02]

57 minutes ago, Lordcrafty said:

hold up, you edited that message that I responded to lol.

edit: I'm not stupid

second edit: I am stupid, I keep selectively reading only the first paragraph or the rest. Look at your first paragraph, where you seem to suggest that skill in CVs could make the torpedoes move fast enough to hit an evading DD. That's what I was alluding to, in nobody's hands are E.L torps good.

Np :D

 

I was being overly dramatic at that part but the internet doesn't really convay it too well (my bad)

 

As for the edit it was actually to remove the bolden text from below after I realised re reading I had started a sentance and went no where with it

 

"I mean it could possibly be confirmation bias, as I do realize that increasing the speed = Increasing the arming distance (why non of my other CV's run/ran torp accel) although I have "

 

So I just removed it as I couldn't remember where I was going with it (large amounts of Rum does that sometimes  (closest emoji I could find to a pirate)