General CV related discussions.

[Panocek]

16 hours ago, Pururut said:

Are flak clouds glitched or was AA always like this?

Always has been

[Deckeru_Maiku]

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

The Akizuki and Lightning took both caps, though Lightning died at the first cap by me.

I wasn't able to kill the Akizuki, did too little dmg and I lost rocket planes

I see mostly here three potatoes hunting enemy CVs instead for doing caps... but hey, probably the enemy DDs are responsible for that, too

[1MajorKoenig]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Which matters... how exactly?

Everyone faces the same MM, no?

It matters because as a CV you have 100% of the CV related decisions of your team under your control. And if you are a good player you benefit from that and can boost your WR. 

[arquata2019_]

4 ore fa, El2aZeR ha scritto:

 

Which matters... how exactly?

Everyone faces the same MM, no?

so you mean we can all share the pain of having always non HP perk dds!

yep, you're right

[El2aZeR]

23 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

It matters because as a CV you have 100% of the CV related decisions of your team under your control. And if you are a good player you benefit from that and can boost your WR. 

 

Except CV mechanics treat every CV encounter as a 1vsX, meaning whether there is an additional CV or not in the match is completely meaningless. It doesn't even change the ratio of default losses/wins a side suffers since the chance of getting a good teammate is equally as high as getting a good enemy.

 

In fact having constant 2vs2 CV battles might actually increase unicum CV WR since normally two enemies will essentially be treated as afk instead of just one. Meanwhile the skilled CV player has a teammate that is highly unlikely to die regardless of how incompetent he is, saving points. Meanwhile if the CV teammate is even remotely good the match is practically won by default to an even more ridiculous degree than in a 1 CV per side situation.

[DFens_666]

And today happened again a situation, where a CV can fart on you from an angle and there is nothing i can do about it. Its getting effed, or getting effed harder. It sucks so hard

 

Open water gunboating  / dodging a Thunderer while playing Kutuzov. He missed like 5 or 6 salvos, then CV came, had to slow down, Thunderer managed to finaly hit one shell when i stopped aaand CV just took half my ship

Balanz Sure, why not angle against the AP rockets, i like showing broadside to a Thunderer who actually uses AP. If he would have shot HE i probably would have turned, alltho he might still blapp me for 10k in that situation + some damage from CV still...

[Sadstories]

Had a ranked game just now. I was the only DD, Harugumo, needless to say the enemy CV took me out in no time. HE TOOK 15.2k HP points in one run, that's MORE THAN HALF of harugumo + the spoting and before my smoke was in I had already less than 5k, He want back for another one and just took me out like that. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU WHEN BALANCING SUCH SHIPS FOR RANKED? Their place was never in this game and will never be because you have no idea how to fix them. Create a special mode for CV if you like them so much but DON'T PUT THEM IN THE RANKED.

[Farheim]

I'm sorry, if you play a dd your opinion is discarded.

[Nit0]

I have encountered a bug today that I have never seen before. Autopilot, it's impossible for me to set the CV to move forward. If I try, it will instead move backwards for about 2-3 km before it's going forward. No obstacles (islands etc) in the way. Anyone else encountered this problem today?

[El2aZeR]

 

Yes, I can almost feel the impact 2 CVs per side has on my match.

In fact, look, enemy has several unicums but terrible CV players. All I have is a halfway decent CV and DD.

 

 

And ofc that means the match is unwinnable for the enemy team.

 

 

Also my DD was left alone to flank and sniped the Parseval. Meanwhile the enemy DD died immediately after leaving spawn at the beginning of the match by virtue of 2x CV focus. I thought CVs are supposed to solve lopsided DD match ups, not create them? 

[Pikkozoikum]

18 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

You are again ignoring what im trying to say. You say, avg damage for CVs is scewed because they survive longer than other classes. I try to tell you, CVs often deal less damage by hunting DDs, if they would hunt BBs, then this happens:

I don't want agree or deny that. I don't think we have any information about relative damage of CVs and BBs. You are totally right, that you could include that type of Damage into a statistic. Sadly we don't have this statistic

But then, it's also an assumption, that CVs tend to go for DDs and BBs are not shooting them. But it can also happen, that BBs fire on radared or DD-spotted DDs, while CVs farm BB damage ;)

And as long we don't get that information from WG, it stays an assumption.

But what we have: We see the survival rate, and can interpret that + personal experience. It's not very hard to figure out, that CVs have more battle time than other ships.

 

My assumption: People who prefer to farm damage, will do that in a CV, BB, DD, and cruiser. People who know how to go for priority targets will go for those. No matter in which ship they are. I doubt that the majority of CV players are smarter than the players in other ship types^^ I think they dsitribute almost even.

 

In the video, he farmed 200k damage, any BB can reach that and it's not that uncommon, and has nothing to do, what I stated, only that it shows, that a CV survives until the end.

 

 

19 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

hmm 150k in 5 minutes. Come again with a BB that deals 600k damage in 20 minutes?

If you calculate dpm like that, I did the following: 2 Minos, me in Shiki. Salvo one - dev strike ~40k, Salvo two - dev strike ~40k.

So if you even take the first and second reload then we get ~80k dmg/min -> 400k dmg/ 5min, 1600k / 20min
But that are unrealistic numbers, just like 600k damage. Yes, he did 150k in 5 minutes, though I did 80k in 30s or 60s, depending on what time you count.

 

19 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

You try to paint a picture in favour of CVs, while ignoring the other stuff which causes them to have lower avg damage. Btw, not to mention that there are really really bad players in CVs, who deal much less damage than the potato BB players.

I try to paint a picture, to be more realistic, no matter if in favor or against CV.

 

Just some Questions:
Does the CV live generally longer?

If yes, will he be able to archive higher total damage numbers?
Does this reflect the actual dpm / damage power?

 

I don't even know, why we discussing this. it's point clear logic. Total damage is time depending and a CV gets more time, thus he gets more damage, and the point is, that doesn't reflect the dpm.

 

It would be way easier to explain, if we would get access to all the statistic data of WG, sadly they share them so rarely.

 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

On 1/17/2021 at 11:17 PM, WolfRawrrr said:

Huh. As simple as that I guess. It's pretty obvious now but thanks for pointing it out. I got confused by the fact that I did get a few citadels before and that I read about people saying they could get them with Lexington's bombers. Had no idea it's a lot more common for German (and I suppose IJN bombers as well since they're AP). Thanks!

I could imagine, that there is somewhere a setup, where the Lexington could pen a citadell, but this would be a very specific cruiser with weird citadell, not sure if that really exists ^^

For IJN it's kinda though I think, not sure if that is possible. Probably the tasks is finished, before you ever archieve the 17 hits^^

But maybe I'm wrong

 

I mean if you drop 3 AP bombs, how often do you get 3 citadell hits? Assuming, that you always get 3 hits, then you need ~6 runs.

But I doubt that you get those in 6 runs. If you do 1.5 cits, then you need 12 runs, which is more likely. But will be there the time to get 12 runs with DBs and the targets, that actually can take the hits?
Must be very hard

 

14 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

I disagree tho, that a single BB has it easier. BBs usually get stronger in force. A single BB has pretty much 0 crossfire, unless there are some BCs aswell. More BBs = harder for Cruisers.

I guess you both are in some way correct and both comments should be combined to get the full answer

 

 

 

[HMCite]

On 1/8/2021 at 4:43 PM, DFens_666 said:

Well, people can get 80% WR in div even when not playing CV, i dont think that arguement is strong.

well,  Check my stats in Divisions, I have played about 8-10 K of my games in division and have a WR of 60plus as a whole.... So how does it not make sense?

My Average WR in div is 60 plus in 10K  battles and everytime i get FDR in div, I reach 80-90 percent miraculously?

[1MajorKoenig]

10 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Except CV mechanics treat every CV encounter as a 1vsX, meaning whether there is an additional CV or not in the match is completely meaningless. It doesn't even change the ratio of default losses/wins a side suffers since the chance of getting a good teammate is equally as high as getting a good enemy.

 

In fact having constant 2vs2 CV battles might actually increase unicum CV WR since normally two enemies will essentially be treated as afk instead of just one. Meanwhile the skilled CV player has a teammate that is highly unlikely to die regardless of how incompetent he is, saving points. Meanwhile if the CV teammate is even remotely good the match is practically won by default to an even more ridiculous degree than in a 1 CV per side situation.

Well actually no. You are mixing in team composition now. But regardless - as both teams face the same composition - that part isn’t relevant. It is simply a fact that the more of the actions you control the more you can influence the outcome of the match. And in a 2 CV per team scenario your relative influence is smaller. Imagine two unicum CVs against yourself  and a full CV idiot. You may very well lose the race then. Whereas if there is one per side the better player automatically has a positive impact on the match outcome. Now being a BB out of four makes your relative impact on the game even smaller 

[El2aZeR]

35 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Imagine two unicum CVs against yourself  and a full CV idiot.

 

Ofc I'm going to lose, but it is just as likely that I will be the one with the unicum teammate. You aren't changing anything statistically because the amount of default losses and wins due to MM remains the same.

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Sadly we don't have this statistic

 

A combination of damage, solo WR and KPM suffices. At which point CVs pull laughably ahead.

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I try to paint a picture, to be more realistic

 

 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, HMCite said:

well,  Check my stats in Divisions, I have played about 8-10 K of my games in division and have a WR of 60plus as a whole.... So how does it not make sense?

My Average WR in div is 60 plus in 10K  battles and everytime i get FDR in div, I reach 80-90 percent miraculously?

 

Not saying it doesnt make sense, i just said that the arguement is not really great if you want to point out how influencial CVs are. I dont think you only win 60% in a 3xdiv if you dont put a CV in.

I dont think ive played enough 3x div with CVs to make a conclusive statement to how much it would increase my WR. But looking at el2azer, even he gets "only" 10% more in a 3xdiv compared to his solo CV stats. So it really doesnt make so much a difference for the CV, sure he will win more if he constantly has 2 good teammates with him, but even a 3x div without CV can achieve >80%, if they always play strong/meta ships.

[UnderDuress]

19 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

It is relatively simple - if there are 4 BBs per team you exercise 25% of the class influence - i.e. you decide on 1/4 of all the actions this class is supposed to perform within the match.

 

And second there is a “relative class influence” which is not a single hard figure but a combined and weighted number characteristic to a class. While it will be close to impossible to have everyone agree on the exact weighting the results of relative battle influence per class will not be wildly deviating.

No idea what you are trying to say. Are you saying a ship type can only have a set amount of influence and somehow all ships of the type can only add up to the same amount? So 1 BB or 4 BBs has the same influence but with 4 BBs each player has 25% of it?

 

19 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

In other words: yes they are 11 other players. But missing the “relative cl[edited]influence” of one of the classes will make your team’s life much harder. Think of a game where all your DDs die within three minutes and the enemy has three left. Will be a terrible uphill battle. 

Are you just saying going 3 ships down would make it an uphill battle, which seems obvious? Or are you saying with 2 equal teams, the one without DDs have it harder?

[Nov_A]

Sooo... any recommended new CV commander builds?

[GoTTa_Sm4ShDTr4sH]

Vor 18 Minuten, Nov_A sagte:

Sooo... any recommended new CV commander builds?

https://thedailybounce.net/world-of-warships/world-of-warships-recommended-builds-for-aircraft-carriers/ 

 

This is from the KOTS-Discordserver...Maybe it helps you

 

[DFens_666]

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I don't want agree or deny that. I don't think we have any information about relative damage of CVs and BBs. You are totally right, that you could include that type of Damage into a statistic. Sadly we don't have this statistic

But then, it's also an assumption, that CVs tend to go for DDs and BBs are not shooting them. But it can also happen, that BBs fire on radared or DD-spotted DDs, while CVs farm BB damage ;)

And as long we don't get that information from WG, it stays an assumption.

But what we have: We see the survival rate, and can interpret that + personal experience. It's not very hard to figure out, that CVs have more battle time than other ships.

 

My assumption: People who prefer to farm damage, will do that in a CV, BB, DD, and cruiser. People who know how to go for priority targets will go for those. No matter in which ship they are. I doubt that the majority of CV players are smarter than the players in other ship types^^ I think they dsitribute almost even.

 

 

So if we have an equal distribution of player skill, then it means, we have people who dont attack DDs in every class. Even if ill shoot DDs basicly all the time when im in a BB, i can hardly kill them on my own. Yet, with a CV, this is no issue, even for me. Not to mention someone like @El2aZeR who can kill like 4 DDs in 5 minutes without much trouble (well unless the DDs actively hide in their spawn ofc). Do you think, he could do that if he would be in a BB/DD/Cruiser? No way. I once basicly killed 4 DDs playing Radar mino, directly and indirectly through spotting, that still took me 3 Radars to pull off. And i basicly radared all of them every time.

Anyway, we know what happens with CVs, that dont have a proper ammo against DDs: They deal more damage on average, see german CVs. So if they cant strike DDs properly, they go for targets where they will deal more damage. Only after the latest MvR nerf its back in line with Midway and Haku.

Alltime Unicum stats on proships show, that MvR has almost 10% more damage than Midway and Haku had. In the last month, MvR fell behind them in damage output, by like 3-4%.

 

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

In the video, he farmed 200k damage, any BB can reach that and it's not that uncommon, and has nothing to do, what I stated, only that it shows, that a CV survives until the end.

 

X for doubt. There are practically no people with 200k avg damage in BBs, even if they only farm BBs (Thunderer, Conqueror). Yet, if el2azer would also go for BBs, i dont see an issue that he could deal 200k constantly. Alltho he probably would lose more games as a result, so doesnt make sense.

Still doesnt change, that CVs can easily farm more damage - if they only wanted to. And noobs want to, but they cant execute it, thus they cant deal 200k avg damage. Its not like they could do that in a BB either.

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Yet, if el2azer would also go for BBs, i dont see an issue that he could deal 200k constantly.

 

Gaishu does it as did Mashinori before real life caught up to him. 180-200k avg dmg in Midway and Haku. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BLUB__BLUB]

12 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Yes, I can almost feel the impact 2 CVs per side has on my match.

In fact, look, enemy has several unicums but terrible CV players. All I have is a halfway decent CV and DD.

Considering you probably smacked everything before anyone else could nab it, I'd say your Ryujo has done quite well. 

The red Ryujo almost ,matched your second-best player. That Graf Zeppy though... well maybe he was AFK...  

 

12 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

And ofc that means the match is unwinnable for the enemy team.

Eh masterrrr. Nobody can match the powers of the dark side.  

 

12 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Also my DD was left alone to flank and sniped the Parseval.

What else was there left for him to do... 

 

12 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Meanwhile the enemy DD died immediately after leaving spawn at the beginning of the match by virtue of 2x CV focus.

...especially after that? 

 

12 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

I thought CVs are supposed to solve lopsided DD match ups, not create them? 

I'm sure you are being sarcastic here. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

7 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

And in a 2 CV per team scenario your relative influence is smaller.

Depends. I had that sometimes, when we decided in chat I'd farm the left and he'd farm the right it was just unfunny. 

We met in the middle, both having 4 kills... then farmed the rest... 

 

Imagine me (quite potato) in Ark Royal meeting @El2aZeR in Enty, but both on same team.

Oh sweet RNGesus, or maybe that would be RNSatan wouldn't it. Maybe that would be a nicve replay. It would be rather short though.

He'd farm cap A and B and I'd take C, or something. I wonder if anyone else would manage to get any score.

Would not even matter if I were fail-divving again into T9. The only other option is, it would be a 5-minute ROFLSTOMP.  

 

Could be worse though. I remember a 3-CV-division, once on the submarine test server... 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

10 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

So if we have an equal distribution of player skill, then it means, we have people who dont attack DDs in every class. Even if ill shoot DDs basicly all the time when im in a BB, i can hardly kill them on my own. Yet, with a CV, this is no issue, even for me. Not to mention someone like @El2aZeR who can kill like 4 DDs in 5 minutes without much trouble (well unless the DDs actively hide in their spawn ofc). Do you think, he could do that if he would be in a BB/DD/Cruiser? No way. I once basicly killed 4 DDs playing Radar mino, directly and indirectly through spotting, that still took me 3 Radars to pull off. And i basicly radared all of them every time.

Anyway, we know what happens with CVs, that dont have a proper ammo against DDs: They deal more damage on average, see german CVs. So if they cant strike DDs properly, they go for targets where they will deal more damage. Only after the latest MvR nerf its back in line with Midway and Haku.

Alltime Unicum stats on proships show, that MvR has almost 10% more damage than Midway and Haku had. In the last month, MvR fell behind them in damage output, by like 3-4%.

Well, that is very situational and without WG Statistic, we can only assume, and thats very inaccurate.

I one shottet DDs in my BB. I even kill DDs with my secondary Shiki quite often ^^'

 

When I play CV, some DDs die quite easily, but mostly there is still help from the team. But I also had DDs, they very unkillable and without help, I couldn't or can't finish them. I mean, you could say, I'm a potatoe. But I think I'm above the average, idk.

 

So there exists all kind scenarios, easy kill with BB, impossible kill with BB, easy kill with CV, and impossible kill with CV.

And we talk about CV, not about one of the op CVs^^

Otherwise we could pick ships like Missouri and say, that BBs can kill alone DDs... ^^

 

Also it makes not much sense to say "CVs go for DDs". You say, a CV has it easier. so if a CV and BB shot on the same DD, then the CV gets the easy damage and the BB not? Thus the CVs total damage is even more pushed by that fact, instead of "The damage of CVs is lower, because they go for DDs"

 

10 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

X for doubt. There are practically no people with 200k avg damage in BBs, even if they only farm BBs (Thunderer, Conqueror). Yet, if el2azer would also go for BBs, i dont see an issue that he could deal 200k constantly. Alltho he probably would lose more games as a result, so doesnt make sense.

Still doesnt change, that CVs can easily farm more damage - if they only wanted to. And noobs want to, but they cant execute it, thus they cant deal 200k avg damage. Its not like they could do that in a BB either.

Heh, and that's what I mentioned earlier with the difference of DPM/Damage potential and average total damage. The CV lives longer, thus his average total damage is of course higher. BBs die more often, thus their average total damage is lower.

 

Just make the example with a few matches

 

1- I play CV and survive until the of 15 minutes and do 150k damage

2- I play CV and survive until the of 18 minutes and do 200k damage

3- I play CV and survive until the of 8 minutes and do 60k damage.

 

My total game would be 3 games with an average 136k

 

1- I play a bb and survive 10 minutes in a 15 minute game and do 120k damage

2- I play a bb and die right at the start in an 18 minute game, because me derped and I did 40k damage

3- I play a bb and survive the full 8 minutes. It was a stomp with dev strikes, 100k damage.

 

average damage of all my games: 86k

 

Why is my BB damage lower? Is the BB damage so weak and bad? No, it's because of the survival rate, BBs generally die more often and earlier than CVs. Only the average total damage is lower, not the dpm

 

My Hakuryu has average damage: 126k - Survival rate: 82%

My Shikishima has average damage: 109k - Survival rate: 52%

 

Don't you think, that my avg. damange of Shiki wouldn't be higher, if my survival rate would be 82%?

I think it's like this: In a good game, my damage potential is higher than my CVs damage. In a Bad game my damage potential is worse than the CV or in other words: The CV in inbetween and consistent.

 

And the focus on DDs is very selective in your assumption. You assume, that bad players can't go effectively for DDs in BB or CV. But you assume, that good players in CV go for DDs, but BBs farm damage? I would rather think, that good BB players also know, what to focus.

[Shinayan]

Hi!
Inspired by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPkAiapYHg4
Decided to post a thread and add a few ideas and thoughts of mine.
Got a few ideas on my own also inspired by others that comment here, so first thx to all of you <3
1. When we start a game, we are loading ammo, torps etc, planes should be done same way - you start preparing the planes on the deck and they are off after 2 mins or so. Early spotting problem solved.

2. Idea in progress: When planes are starting you can see them on radar where they appear >> This way either CV should become visible for a 1 second (not enough to target unless waiting for this) or less hardcore version - updated position on minimap.

3. Altitude change: + high, spotting on minimap only (immune to AA dmg) + medium, spotting on minimap and NONTARGETABLE spotting - low dispersion on shots vs those (like blind shots where you know where the ship is, but invisible); planes get more consistent damage and flacks + low, attack altitude for torps and rockets (planes get more critical damage) + clouds that could act like smokes for planes, prevent vision and gives concealment. Clouds often are close or on some vast area, battles could be in 0-100 % cloud cover divided by 25% stages. Sometimes scattered, sometimes bigger area. Thunderstorms can hit planes too - rng based and planes should have problems while navigating in those (low speed, shakes that turn more or less the plane a bit in some direction)

4. Defensive AA consumable puts you in manual charge of AA guns for the short period - 10-20 sec, 5-6 consumables per game. Short time is good so you can skip 1 shot of main guns, but you can still control ship. You will shoot continuous damage after cursor all the time and fire flacks using LMB.

5. Like the idea of starting planes only on cruising speed - they rly need that initial speed to take off.

6. Fuel? - limited time in the air of a squadron, or limited total distance traveled: if you use a lot early game, later you will have just for close range raids. Surface Ships loos HP, CV's use fuel for flights. Additionally or separately: boosting use 100% more fuel while gliding saves 50% while dropping speed.

7. Altitude addon & range upgrade: There is an effective ground and ceiling range in AA guns, some random https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Flak_18/36/37/41 gun has effective fire range 15km fire range for ground and 8 km for ceiling. AA bubbles could be much bigger in that way, but also damage could scale from almost non existent far away to 100% at close range and 75% at very close range (above). This does not exclude PvE though.

8. #4 + #7 AA can be automated for low damage and switched to manual for high damage. If you are flanking with a CV, mostly you are focused and only thing you focus on is planes. Manual controlled AA would be fighting actively back and thus not being a juicy target. There should be possibility to shoot down full squadron by a good player when you don't need to focus on main guns yet. Could also be consumable dependant.

9. Chance of an attacking plane to be destroyed, not only the "backup" planes of the squadron. That would be also a way to mitigate some damage.

10. Preparation of planes - starting early with 3 planes ready of each type, but slightly improving the restoration rate. To focus early game either on scouting or just low harassment.

 

,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-.,,.-*''*-., FOR CV's:

1. They could enjoy more active fight vs player manual controlled AA (evading shells or flack wall)

2. Cloud would be an extra environment that they could use for surprise attacks and more in depth tactics in general

3. Fuel or time based flight will need more planning how to effectively utilize planes in combat.

3b. Possibility to select number of planes in a squadron by 1-4 steps (1-4 attack runs) to select tasks: more on spotting or save "fuel" in small harassment attack early game, more decisive attack runs later on.

4. Full squad attack - attacking with full squadron at the same time, but with low accuracy or/and higher damage taken (something like panic mode, but with a risk of loosing full squad due to damage)