General CV related discussions.

[DFens_666]

3 minutes ago, Farheim said:

I mean, he can keep you spotted that's true, but he'll struggle to do some real damage.

 

He doesnt have to. Its enough to be spotted to be handcuffed in certain ships. His BBs can just deal the damage.

Thats why, being in a BB and getting spotted by a CV hardly matters. Also bad CV players cant even drop BBs properly so...

[1MajorKoenig]

24 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

To get some understanding on what the game looks like from DDs perspective.

“I want to have full control over who is spotted and when. I want to move around on the map at my free will. I decide when a fight take place and if at all. I decide what Caps are taken and when. I am the master of skills. I am the Center of the universe.

 

Sincerely yours,

a DD-Main”

 

 

(and you may add: sometimes it comes in handy to take a BB-monkey with me to dispose pesky radar cruisers - but if he does it is also my skill as I spotted that thing and directed the fire)

[AndyHill]

26 minutes ago, Farheim said:

You know you'll have some really hard time explaining to me how a trio of dds suiciding in first 5 minutes is my fault and that I should try to look at things from a different angle and all that stuff. I hate dd's when I play CA/BB, y'know as a surface ship player. When I play CV I'm like 'eh what a bunch of idiots' and try to compensate for their f-ups by killing enemy dds/providing some spot. But when I play a bb and suddenly find myself in a situation when my flank is left without spot and we have no ways to deal with the enemy dd... yea that's the moment where I start think of dds as the root of all evil.

If a trio of any ships suicide at the start of the game doing nothing it's just about an auto loss every time regardless of the ship and nothing should be able to compensate for that. 

 

But why are we still talking about destroyers and their influence when you just said yourself that you can compensate for 3 of them in your carrier?

[AndyHill]

12 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

“I want to have full control over who is spotted and when. I want to move around on the map at my free will. I decide when a fight take place and if at all. I decide what Caps are taken and when. I am the master of skills. I am the Center of the universe.

 

Sincerely yours,

a DD-Main”

 

 

(and you may add: sometimes it comes in handy to take a BB-monkey with me to dispose pesky radar cruisers - but if he does it is also my skill as I spotted that thing and directed the fire)

Sounds like desirable things from a number of perspectives, but since I am on a stat chacking spree I kind of don't think you're actually a DD main either.

[DFens_666]

17 minutes ago, Farheim said:

However I care about winning and dead dds mean that I have to play at my absolute best to compensate and that is very exhausting. 

 

I dont see the difference when 2 of your BBs die within 5 minutes and the other 3 only found the "S"-key. Or when all BBs sit in one square behind an island in your spawn... its just endless at this time.

If you dont want to rely on random apes, play division.

[Farheim]

4 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

If a trio of any ships suicide at the start of the game doing nothing it's just about an auto loss every time regardless of the ship and nothing should be able to compensate for that. 

 

Oh we can easily change it to a 'solo dd dies', not a trio, and suddenly your argument loses its value entirely, while mine stands truer than ever. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I dont see the difference when 2 of your BBs die within 5 minutes

How many bbs are in a game usually? And how many dds? Do you honeslty think 2 BBs are more valuable than 2 DD's?  

[DFens_666]

Just now, Farheim said:

How many bbs are in a game usually? And how many dds? Do you honeslty think 2 BBs are more valuable than 2 DD's?  

 

The average should be something like 2,5 DDs vs 4,x BBs. Alltho it seems, BB popularity seems through the roof lately, and maplesyrup tells me that there are more than 10 BBs per game on average

Just saying, that i see BBs being as useless as DDs. Ive lost games because 2 or more BBs were utter horseshit. Like 2 thunderer camping in spawn when they had to be agressive, and when they needed to survive they suicided. Doesnt matter what everyone else was doing at that time, the enemy BBs had moved up and taken strategic spots around the caps. Our BBs had to go in and do something, instead they were retarded and did nothing.

 

6 minutes ago, Farheim said:

Oh we can easily change it to a 'solo dd dies', not a trio, and suddenly your argument loses its value entirely, while mine stands truer than ever. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

As i said earlier, if there is only 1 DD and the entire team is somehow useless on every part of the map, than its not the dead DDs fault. One DD cant stop 2 flanks from doing something.

Games with 3 or 4 DDs are much more lopsided when one team loses all of theirs. But i fail to see the point, if a quarter or third of one team dies, then they pretty much deserve to lose anyway, be it DD or BB/Cruiser/CV.

[AndyHill]

9 minutes ago, Farheim said:

Oh we can easily change it to a 'solo dd dies', not a trio, and suddenly your argument loses its value entirely, while mine stands truer than ever. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, not really. A solo anything dying is not ideal, but not the end of the world either. Except maybe if the carrier suicides at the start, that's pretty bad.

 

[Farheim]

14 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

No, not really. A solo anything dying is not ideal, but not the end of the world either.

Okay. Your solo dd dies, you ve no radars, no cvs. I wanna hear your proposition,  how are you supposed to win that game? You can't push into torps, you can't contest caps, you're being outspotted... should I continue?

20 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

they pretty much deserve to lose anyway

Yeah because they rolled a bunch of idiots on the most crucial class for contesting objectives - they totally deserve to lose regardless of anything. I see.

[DFens_666]

19 minutes ago, Farheim said:

Okay. Your solo dd dies, you ve no radars, no cvs. I wanna hear your proposition,  how are you supposed to win that game? You can't push into torps, you can't contest caps, you're being outspotted... should I continue?

 

How can one DD spot 3 or even 4 caps?

How can one DD torp ships across the map?

How can one DD spot ships across the map?

 

If they cant work on a flank without a DD, again, your team would lose regardless of having a DD or not. The problem is, BBs need to do the work, but average BB player is just incapable. Pushing into DD torps can work btw

[El2aZeR]

Oh look, all 4 enemy DDs dead either directly or indirectly by my hand while the enemy CV hasn't managed to do anything yet. In fact he is actually about to die.

 

 

Such a great equalizer CVs are, no? /s

[CptBarney]

3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Oh look, all 4 enemy DDs dead either directly or indirectly by my hand while the enemy CV hasn't managed to do anything yet. In fact he is actually about to die.

 

 

Such a great equalizer CVs are, no? /s

When you collect all the lolis in Azur lane through force.

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Such a great equalizer CVs are, no? /s

I'd say you equalized their whole team pretty much. 

[lup3s]

23 minutes ago, Farheim said:

Yeah because they rolled a bunch of idiots on the most crucial class for contesting objectives - they totally deserve to lose regardless of anything. I see.

 

Same thing with CVs ... lost count of the battles that were a guaranteed win but resulted in a loss anyway because one team got the unicum CV and the other the potato CV.

 

If anything, the rework caused (good) CVs to have an even bigger influence on the outcome of the battle; and it feels like the skill gap between good and bad players is even higher than before.

 

 

Every class has idiots playing them (and BBs probably take the top spot); with DDs you might just notice this more as they tend to get sunk rather quickly (compared to those speshul BBs camping in spawn and sniping from max range).

[BLUB__BLUB]

16 minutes ago, lup3s said:

If anything, the rework caused (good) CVs to have an even bigger influence on the outcome of the battle; and it feels like the skill gap between good and bad players is even higher than before.

This is true, because in RTS at least the better CV player had to do something to shut down the bad CV player. 

Meanwhile he could not pester any other ships much. in the Reeeework, bad players get auto-shutdown by AA/FLAK. 

Also there is no autodrop... some cannot even aim. 

[AndyHill]

48 minutes ago, Farheim said:

Okay. Your solo dd dies, you ve no radars, no cvs. I wanna hear your proposition,  how are you supposed to win that game? You can't push into torps, you can't contest caps, you're being outspotted... should I continue?

These examples are pointless because you have no context so there's no way to evaluate the situation. It's not such a huge deal, though, although losing any one ship early for no gain is bad.

 

Let's look at the situation in terms of reality. A T10 DD does on average about 40k of damage, DDs are the lowest damage class. That's about 1/3 of a battleship. If this is an ideal situation for him since we'll be pushing into a DD, let's say he's expected to do 120k - 3 times the average - and he manages to kill a battleship (with heals). T10 DDs typically do about 40-45k spotting so that's a cruiser almost gone, but since we made this is the ideal situation for him, let's give him twice that so one and a half cruisers maybe. Unless his team starts slacking, we will still have 8 ships remaining when the game ends in our win. 

 

Of course that's not the whole story, but imaginary anecdotal examples like this are pointless anyway. After the DD's death the game can go almost an infinite amount of different ways, quite a few of them ending up with your team winning. DDs are an influential class that has a relatively high skill floor, so this kind of situations are not super rare. Yet, a lot of them end up with your team winning anyway. Losing a DD early is not a good thing, but it's by far not the end of the game either and absolutely winnable.

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, AndyHill said:

To get some understanding on what the game looks like from DDs perspective. If you never play DDs and don't consider yourself a DD player, it's very human to start thinking of them as the root of all evil in all the games you lose, because it's always "not-you". You're also never going to get those games where your team loses despite your herculean efforts in completely pwning red DDs, which might make you massively overestimate the significance of DD difference.

 

If you compare games with good and bad DDs vs games with good and bad CVs and think of asymmetric spotting as a problem, you can for example take a look at spotting numbers. On average, DDs do 30k (Haru) to 52k (Somers) spotting (EU server from proships.ru) whereas carriers do 78k (Midway) to 100k (Franklin). If a really bad player does half the average and a really good player does half again the average spotting in a carrier, that's roughly (very roughly, since that estimation is from my rear) 40k to 120k difference, which is two average destroyers' worth of spotting. Even if the difference in carrier spotting is about 1/4 either way you still get 60k vs 100k in spotting, which is about one extra destroyer's worth.

 

If you're mainly worried about spotting, the actual numbers seem to indicate that any difference in carrier skill is far more important than DDs. Carriers don't do any capping, but they compensate that by being the best at protecting caps - their decapping numbers are at the top and that doesn't even show their effect in preventing ships from getting into caps in the first place.

 

I'm an allrounder and play all ships. 36% BB, 26% Cruiser, 20% DD, 18% CV.

The total amount of spotting damage is not relevant, also the numbers are not that much compareable, because a DD can die early, thus his spotting damage potential is not used, while CVs spot always until the late game. So the average-total spotting damage doesn't show the potential. Same with damage, the total damage is not showing the dpm. Example

A ship that has 5k dpm and lives 20 minutes does 100k total damage.

A ship, that has 20k dpm and lives 3 minutes does 60k total damage.

 

The second ship does less total damage, but the potential is way higher. It's just something, that has to be considered.

 

The spotting issue with DDs is, only DDs or in some cases Radar can counter them. As BB and some cruiser you can't do anything against that, you need a DD or radar.

If you have a CV, then it doesn't matter, the CV will spot and the CV would die early. That's why I like CVs in matches, when I'm BB or Cruiser.

Though I also don't have issues playing a DD with a CV, it's exciting for me. As DD it's important to get the cap in the right moment. Offer spotting only, when there is no one spotting and no CV threatening.

 

[Prophecy82]

3 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

“I want to have full control over who is spotted and when. I want to move around on the map at my free will. I decide when a fight take place and if at all. I decide what Caps are taken and when. I am the master of skills. I am the Center of the universe.

 

Sincerely yours,

a DD-Main”

 

"Unga Bunga? 

DD Brrrrrr!

 

Bonk! 

CV M[ain?] [ongo?]"

 

I was unable to read the rest of the note since it was too damaged by water, which was a result of the authors constant drooling. 

[Chaos_Umbra]

I think we need a  reaction added to the forums so people can correctly react to some of the posts in this thread...

[GarrusBrutus]

51 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The second ship does less total damage, but the potential is way higher. It's just something, that has to be considered.

Why? In potential Colberts DPM is insanely OP, but in reality it is not. If Colbert did 200k average the ship would be insanely OP. Meanwhile CVs top a lot of the charts, but that is fine because they live the longest? Interesting view to say the least.

56 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The spotting issue with DDs is, only DDs or in some cases Radar can counter them.

...if the DD is good. But as we have already established: Most DDs arent good. So it is highly likely that they let you run into their detection range or that they run into your hydro range or that they camp in smoke while you rush them whilst their torpedoes are on cooldown. You and other "CVs make the game more interesting"- folks make it out to be like the CVs are the only weapons you can deploy against DDs once your own DDs are dead while in fact there are plenty. Especially in objective based gamemodes where DDs are often forced to get into small areas to cap.

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

As BB and some cruiser you can't do anything against DDs, you need a DD or radar.

You can, but it takes some skill and gameknowledge. Besides "doing something against them" doesnt necessarily mean killing them outright, simply capturing the objectives and not getting killed by DDs is "doing something against them" in my book, as you force the enemy DD into more risky play.

[AndyHill]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I'm an allrounder and play all ships. 36% BB, 26% Cruiser, 20% DD, 18% CV.

The total amount of spotting damage is not relevant, also the numbers are not that much compareable, because a DD can die early, thus his spotting damage potential is not used, while CVs spot always until the late game. So the average-total spotting damage doesn't show the potential. Same with damage, the total damage is not showing the dpm. Example

A ship that has 5k dpm and lives 20 minutes does 100k total damage.

A ship, that has 20k dpm and lives 3 minutes does 60k total damage.

 

The second ship does less total damage, but the potential is way higher. It's just something, that has to be considered.

 

The spotting issue with DDs is, only DDs or in some cases Radar can counter them. As BB and some cruiser you can't do anything against that, you need a DD or radar.

If you have a CV, then it doesn't matter, the CV will spot and the CV would die early. That's why I like CVs in matches, when I'm BB or Cruiser.

Though I also don't have issues playing a DD with a CV, it's exciting for me. As DD it's important to get the cap in the right moment. Offer spotting only, when there is no one spotting and no CV threatening.

When the premise is simply "your team's DD dies early" there is no point in trying to figure out a potential outcome as there are near infinite amount of variables. We could imagine all kinds of potential outcomes for all eternity, that's the problem with imagined scenarios. The only certain thing is that the game is definitely not over when one side has one DD and the other has none, which was the original claim. The remaining DD (20km Shima) might start openwater gunboating against a Zao, Minotaur and a Hindenburg. The server might crash and everyone else except you drops and you get 700k damage and 5k base. 

 

As far as general fights against DD advantage go in reality, it all depends on his and your teammates. If you have advantage, you need to push. A DD won't stop a determined push and if the red BBs are busy humping the border and yours push into the cap, you just win. Of course a DD is at its most dangerous when people are pushing into him, but if you know approximately where he is, he's already halfway ducked. He has to hit that first volley real good and if you manage to juke most of it, you know where he is probably going to be and you have up to two and a half minutes of time to do whatever you want. Most of the time the DD simply can't engage pursuing ships in a direct gunfight so they are not that hard to push around if you have the firepower advantage in the region. Any hydro cruiser especially with RPF can basically neutralize a DD. The only situation where the DD just automatically wins is if you need to kill him to win the match and all he needs to do is to stay hidden.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Why? In potential Colberts DPM is insanely OP, but in reality it is not. If Colbert did 200k average the ship would be insanely OP. Meanwhile CVs top a lot of the charts, but that is fine because they live the longest? Interesting view to say the least.

The total damage is not showing the "power".

 

What is stronger, a pistol or a Apache?

 

You get 10 rounds for the MG on your Apache, but 1000 rounds for the pistol

Technically the Apache is way stronger, but with 1000 rounds you still can kill more people.

 

That's the effect we get with CVs. They have more rounds, duo they live longer. But their rounds are "weak" ( " ")

 

 

We don't take RNG into account: Assuming that a CV does every minute 15k damage in average. Now the CV always lives 20 minutes. He does every minute for 20 minutes 15k damage, thus he does 300k damage.

 

Now we have a BB with big salvos, no RNG, he hits always very hard with 10k every 30s. He does 20k dmg in a minute. But he sinks in 5 minutes. 100k dmg in total.

While his total damge is low, he has way more dpm and cause way more damage.

But what if the BB survives longer? He lives now 15 minutes and does 300k dmg. Then another BB lives 20 Minutes and does 400k dmg.

 

What is the average total damage now? (100k+300k+400k)/3 = 266k

 

Even if there are players, who does 400k dmg, there average total damage is lower than the maximum potential of the CV. That's why I would not take the total damage as proof for the damage potential. It doesn't include the dpm.

 

16 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

...if the DD is good. But as we have already established: Most DDs arent good. So it is highly likely that they let you run into their detection range or that they run into your hydro range or that they camp in smoke while you rush them whilst their torpedoes are on cooldown. You and other "CVs make the game more interesting"- folks make it out to be like the CVs are the only weapons you can deploy against DDs once your own DDs are dead while in fact there are plenty. Especially in objective based gamemodes where DDs are often forced to get into small areas to cap.

Of course there are DDs, that do mistakes, but I have it very often, that my DD is bad, and the enemy DD is not dumb enough to move 5km close to my BB or cruiser. Many DDs stay away far enough.

 

18 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

You can, but it takes some skill and gameknowledge. Besides "doing something against them" doesnt necessarily mean killing them outright, simply capturing the objectives and not getting killed by DDs is "doing something against them" in my book, as you force the enemy DD into more risky play.

When expecting a 30% WR DD, it might work. But a DD is faster than a BB and running into a DD without being able to see him is way to risky and leads more into a instant lose, especially when you get spotted by the DD and the other team melts me from safe cover... Don't know, how you go to cap that as a BB.

 

 

classic situation, the only choice: Kite/Run away. Not chance to deal with that situation, even if we kill a BB or a Cruiser, the DD will threat us and drop torpedos on us. Moving towards the Cap will make the torpedo drops even easier, and will put us inot a very bad situation.

 

This is not about "This is op" or anything. We started this because someone and me said, that we prefer a CV over this kind of situation, where we rely on DDs heavily.

[Sunleader]

On 1/16/2021 at 9:53 PM, DFens_666 said:

 

I wanna say @Sunleader hat 100% in the 1v1... since i cant see old data, im not entirely sure tho.

 

Anyway, the mode really was setup so that surface ships have a chance to cap, and then the points were ticking so fast it was basicly over right away. I mean, ive often said BBs are actually least effected by CVs, because of the HP, heals, torp protection and armor. Unless you can citadel them with AP bombs, they dont receive so much damage in the first place (or its wheelchair FDR with its insane bombs)

 

23 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Ah you mean the brawl, well I had something like 40-3 with my Kii, need to take a look.

I lost all against BBs, though it could be 100% as well, if better played or not going afk ^^

 

But that's also why I like this more, with RTS, BBs got dev striked or flooded to death. If feels way better to play now a BB (espeically with weak AA) against a CV.

 

I think too many players are just used to the no-fly zone concept, or just forgot about the alpha damage and floods of RTS CVs.  When I play BB and take some damage from a CV, then I don't think like "Oh no, I got damage by an unstoppable power", I think more like "I took some damage, similar to what another ship would cause"

 

.....

 

You cant get a 100 Games in the 1v1 Sprint if you got 100% Winrate.

Cuz you Ranked out after 36 Games.....

 

[El2aZeR]

14 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Not chance to deal with that situation, even if we kill a BB or a Cruiser, the DD will threat us and drop torpedos on us. Moving towards the Cap will make the torpedo drops even easier, and will put us inot a very bad situation.

 

And if the enemy CV just kills your DD while your CV is too incompetent to both spot and kill the enemy DD, what exactly is the difference then? Other than that you are relying on the ability of a single player rather than multiple ones which is objectively much worse?

[El2aZeR]

3 out of 4 DDs dead by my hand while the enemy CV has yet to accomplish anything. Would proceed to bag myself the 4th when we were cleaning up the enemy.

 

 

Truly much better than having the DDs fight each other and being able to support them at that. /s