Capra76 Players 5,001 posts 7,787 battles Report post #6751 Posted January 17, 2021 11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: My problem is never to know the position of the DD. The Problem is, that there is a DD and nobody can deal with it, while we lose. The only thing I can do is running away to make Torpedos less effecitve Er, yeah, in the words of David Farragut (as modified) "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"; this works in WoWs too. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BBMM] BLUB__BLUB [BBMM] Players 8,818 posts 17,199 battles Report post #6752 Posted January 17, 2021 8 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said: How is that any different from having a good cv who hunts the dds (or other vital targets in case of DD absence) vs a mouthbreathing ape as a cv who goes cv sniping? As you know they have made it harder to hunt DDs. With some CVs, it is clearly not their task. While these CAN kill the enemy CV relatively easy - why would they not do that? Take away the biggest threath. CV-kill first, DD-killing second. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NECRO] Deckeru_Maiku Beta Tester 6,636 posts 24,864 battles Report post #6753 Posted January 17, 2021 2 hours ago, DFens_666 said: BBs are still the best class to push into DDs ...especially when the BB player has experience in playing DDs... Oh, the lulz I had when hunting some poor helpless DD in some of my BBs... Sure, doesn't work with ALL BBs and against ALL DDs... but saying a BB is generally helpless is against a DD is... well... laughable... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] DFens_666 Players 13,162 posts 11,029 battles Report post #6754 Posted January 17, 2021 30 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said: ...especially when the BB player has experience in playing DDs... Oh, the lulz I had when hunting some poor helpless DD in some of my BBs... Sure, doesn't work with ALL BBs and against ALL DDs... but saying a BB is generally helpless is against a DD is... well... laughable... I remember one game, where my Fletcher (i believe it was) kept flaming us for camping and hiding in spawn. He was ofc not even trying to spot the Benham for us. Then he ran away, because apparently we didnt help him (while he only was a few km ahead of me in my GK). Since he left us alone i had no choice but to push the Benham away myself... ended with 56 spotted torps and i think i ate 3 or so. Ofc i had more XP than our pro-fletcher, so i rubbed it in after the match, that really triggered him 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[RAIN] GarrusBrutus Players 3,711 posts 12,557 battles Report post #6755 Posted January 17, 2021 8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: If you don't have a CV and your DD dies, then the teams are in a pretty big imbalance. But with a CV, they can balance it and hunt the enemy DD to make it even. If this and if that.... There are thousands of situations you can create and cherry pick to fit your narrative. 8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Radars are semi-effective, if you don't have a CV, what does counter a DD? Right, only another DD. Then you can finally play the game as a surface ship: as a bb you push so your radar cruisers don't get blapped, as a radar cruiser you support your DD and as a DD you try to fight for vision control and try to spot their DDs. Or am I going to get another "Yeah but what if XYZ...?". 8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Also the CV provides spotting even when your side lost the DD. And if you have a bad CV player, he still will do some kind of passive spotting Hahahaha seriously what game do you play man? A bad cv perhaps spots that single bb in the back, or the enemy CV in A1, but not the DD who is capping the middle cap. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farheim Players 182 posts 6,723 battles Report post #6756 Posted January 17, 2021 10 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said: What kind of cherrypicking is that to make the "point" that the game is not fun without cvs? How is that a cherrypicking? I literally logged in and played a few games yesterday and got exactly that kind of scenario, did you see my screencap? That wasn't the first time I got a game like that and definitely not the last one. 10 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said: How is that any different from having a good cv who hunts the dds What are the odds of getting an incredibly bad dd(s) in your team that die on spot? High, very high, hope you won't argue with that. And what are the odds of having a superunicum cv against you? Yeah, not that high, not at all. 6 hours ago, Sunleader said: Equality is the Key to that my Friend. You miss my point entirely if you think so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] DFens_666 Players 13,162 posts 11,029 battles Report post #6757 Posted January 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Farheim said: How is that a cherrypicking? I literally logged in and played a few games yesterday and got exactly that kind of scenario, did you see my screencap? That wasn't the first time I got a game like that and definitely not the last one. I just realized you failed your own claim: You said, DD dead, no radar. Infact, your team had a PR, so you had a radar ship. So now its, DD dead, radar Cruiser dead / stupid... where does it end? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farheim Players 182 posts 6,723 battles Report post #6758 Posted January 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, DFens_666 said: You said, DD dead, no radar. Infact, your team had a PR, so you had a radar ship. Yea and later I've added that 'no radar' would stretch it a bit, to the point you will NEVER be able to prove me wrong. But yeah that PR was as useless as that shima. And let's face it - dumb radar cruisers aren't some kind of rarity you won't see very often. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] DFens_666 Players 13,162 posts 11,029 battles Report post #6759 Posted January 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, Farheim said: Yea and later I've added that 'no radar' would stretch it a bit, to the point you will NEVER be able to prove me wrong. So you agree that such a situation is extremely unlikely to happen in the first place? Then why does it matter, or better yet, how can you conclude that its only the DDs fault for losing that game? Or how about this: - Your DD dies early - Your CV is too stupid to spot DDs, and goes CV sniping. Is it still the DDs fault for dying early when the game is a loss? or - Your Radar Cruisers are stupid and wont radar DDs. Is it again the DDs fault? Nah, that really is too convenient to blame one player in one class for losing the game, when it clearly is a teameffort that they lose. There are ways to overcome a DD deficience. That being said, i agree that losing all DDs early and having to face 3 or 4 enemy DDs is basicly a loss, regardless of radar cruisers. Then again, why shouldnt it be? Why should 1 ship be able to overcome 3 or 4 stupid DDs? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farheim Players 182 posts 6,723 battles Report post #6760 Posted January 17, 2021 30 minutes ago, DFens_666 said: So you agree that such a situation is extremely unlikely to happen in the first place Not extremely, coz dd player base is exceptionaly dumb nowadays. I honestly think that bad dds is the ultimate curse of this game, not cvs or passive bbs. I remember a freaking shipton of games ruined by dds, I'd say roughly 2/3 of my losses were coz of them. But a bad cv ruining a game? Maybe 4 or 6 games over the last year tops. And most of the people who cry about CVs are dd mains. Just a fun fact. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[RAIN] GarrusBrutus Players 3,711 posts 12,557 battles Report post #6761 Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Farheim said: How is that a cherrypicking? Because I read over and over again "if this and that and that...... theeeeeeeen you want to have a cv in your game." that's cherrypicking my friend. 1 hour ago, Farheim said: What are the odds of getting an incredibly bad dd(s) in your team that die on spot? High, very high, hope you won't argue with that. And what are the odds of having a superunicum cv against you? Yeah, not that high, not at all. Those odds are the same for both team. If both teams have three DDs then most likely 4 out of 6 players are bad. Same goes with cv, but those luckily are limited to one per team. Doesn't change the fact that if you're up against a good (not SU, just good) cv, he will make your DDs lives miserable. 28 minutes ago, Farheim said: I remember a freaking shipton of games ruined by dds, I'd say roughly 2/3 of my losses were coz of them. But a bad cv ruining a game? Maybe 4 or 6 games over the last year tops. Such a non argument again. There are probably 10 times more dd games played than cv games... That's like saying "I've had more cars driving passed my house than helicopters flying over it." yeah no crap. 28 minutes ago, Farheim said: And most of the people who cry about CVs are dd mains. Just a fun fact. I wonder why the class that relies the most on stealth for their survival and has the worst AA, complains about a class that is best suited at destroying them. Hmmmm. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farheim Players 182 posts 6,723 battles Report post #6762 Posted January 17, 2021 On 1/17/2021 at 3:21 PM, GarrusBrutus said: Those odds are the same for both team Yes and the ones who win that dice roll usually win the game. Not the ones who roll a better cv I can give you a fresh example of that. Check that guy out, he was playing shokaku against me, I was playing Lex. I'm a superunicum Lex, he's a literal bot. Who do you think have won? Give it a wild guess and then tell me about the importance of having a better cv and how it affects the battle.(Edited; Link removed //Moxy) On 1/17/2021 at 3:21 PM, GarrusBrutus said: Such a non argument again. There are probably 10 times more dd games played than cv games. Yea? Coz from what I've gather here CVs seem to be all over the place, ruining people' experience, yet I'm apparently the only one who gets mad on dds exclusively On 1/17/2021 at 3:21 PM, GarrusBrutus said: I wonder why the class that relies the most on stealth for their survival and has the worst AA ... has no real counterplay besides radar and CVs and has the worst playerbase of all. Gee indeed. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] DFens_666 Players 13,162 posts 11,029 battles Report post #6763 Posted January 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Farheim said: has the worst playerbase of all. I think BBs have the worst players overall. Its harder to realize since they usually dont die within 3 minutes, but that doesnt mean that they are better. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[RAIN] GarrusBrutus Players 3,711 posts 12,557 battles Report post #6764 Posted January 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, Farheim said: Yes and the ones who win that dice roll usually win the game. Not the ones who roll a better cv I can give you a fresh example of that. Check that guy out, he was playing shokaku against me, I was playing Lex. I'm a superunicum Lex, he's a literal bot. Who do you think have won? Give it a wild guess and then tell me about the importance of having a better cv and how it affects the battle.https://wows-numbers.com/player/558724132,Slawomir_8/ Naming and shaking, nice. How many single games are you going to show us that fit your narrative? Should I do the same? Would get kinda repetitive I assume. Posting random scorecards accompanied with nice stories "omg I lost because my cv was a mouth breather" vs "omg I am a unicum cv but we still lost due to mouth breathing DDs". 8 minutes ago, Farheim said: Coz from what I've gather here CVs seem to be all over the place, ruining people' experience, yet I'm apparently the only one who gets mad on dds exclusively Perhaps since they're both the least forgiving and the toughest class to do well in since they run the highest risk of getting killed early in the match? And we all know the average players' skill level.. 10 minutes ago, Farheim said: has no real counterplay besides radar and CVs and has the worst playerbase of all. Gee indeed. Has no real counterplay? Lmao. In 2017 maybe, when stealth firing Khabarovsks were a thing. Nowadays DDs are the easiest class to counter. There are these "WASD" keys on your keyboard. Use them and you negate 99% of their damage. Also these days we have a captain skill called "RPF" that shows you the nearest target. Useful if you want to catch DDs in your radar range. Or do you mean those pesky gunboats gunning you down without "counterplay"? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[POP] AndyHill Weekend Tester 1,433 posts Report post #6765 Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Farheim said: Not extremely, coz dd player base is exceptionaly dumb nowadays. I honestly think that bad dds is the ultimate curse of this game, not cvs or passive bbs. I remember a freaking shipton of games ruined by dds, I'd say roughly 2/3 of my losses were coz of them. I was puzzled by this strange obsession with DDs and wanted to check how you yourself manage in them. Is this a second account or something or do you really have a total of 19 games in DDs? 1 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farheim Players 182 posts 6,723 battles Report post #6766 Posted January 17, 2021 18 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said: How many single games are you going to show us that fit your narrative? My narrative is that CV is not that important in randoms as some people here think. You can't turn the tables, it's not a guaranteed victory, he won't overweight a division of three even just very good players, not unicorns. 23 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said: Has no real counterplay? Lmao. Yeah? Yet when I set conditions like 'no cv, no radar, your dd's dead' you guys suddenly freak out. :^) Go on, tell me how are you gonna counter 1-2-3 dds without having any of said counterplays. 19 minutes ago, AndyHill said: or do you really have a total of 19 games in DDs? Oh, I've also played 22 games on Jervis during that tier VII ranked, 64% winrate. What, I should've played more to prove... exactly what? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[POPPY] Chaos_Umbra [POPPY] Players 1,662 posts 20,300 battles Report post #6767 Posted January 17, 2021 50 minutes ago, DFens_666 said: I think BBs have the worst players overall. Its harder to realize since they usually dont die within 3 minutes, but that doesnt mean that they are better. Actually it is quite easy to spot awful BB players, they either sit at the back firing HE saying "I'm using all my gun range" or they get themselves killed quicker than a open water gunboating Neptune, now that really takes skill to make a BBs armour ineffective and HP evaporate that fast... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CptBarney Players 8,127 posts 245 battles Report post #6768 Posted January 17, 2021 CV's are still broken regardless of what people decide to put down or what cherry picked examples they pick. Strange how its always those who are universally better in CV's compared to every other class that they have played that seem to think CV's are balanced. Hmm i wonder why? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] DFens_666 Players 13,162 posts 11,029 battles Report post #6769 Posted January 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said: , now that really takes skill to make a BBs armour ineffective and HP evaporate that fast... no comment 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[POP] AndyHill Weekend Tester 1,433 posts Report post #6770 Posted January 17, 2021 25 minutes ago, Farheim said: Oh, I've also played 22 games on Jervis during that tier VII ranked, 64% winrate. What, I should've played more to prove... exactly what? To get some understanding on what the game looks like from DDs perspective. If you never play DDs and don't consider yourself a DD player, it's very human to start thinking of them as the root of all evil in all the games you lose, because it's always "not-you". You're also never going to get those games where your team loses despite your herculean efforts in completely pwning red DDs, which might make you massively overestimate the significance of DD difference. If you compare games with good and bad DDs vs games with good and bad CVs and think of asymmetric spotting as a problem, you can for example take a look at spotting numbers. On average, DDs do 30k (Haru) to 52k (Somers) spotting (EU server from proships.ru) whereas carriers do 78k (Midway) to 100k (Franklin). If a really bad player does half the average and a really good player does half again the average spotting in a carrier, that's roughly (very roughly, since that estimation is from my rear) 40k to 120k difference, which is two average destroyers' worth of spotting. Even if the difference in carrier spotting is about 1/4 either way you still get 60k vs 100k in spotting, which is about one extra destroyer's worth. If you're mainly worried about spotting, the actual numbers seem to indicate that any difference in carrier skill is far more important than DDs. Carriers don't do any capping, but they compensate that by being the best at protecting caps - their decapping numbers are at the top and that doesn't even show their effect in preventing ships from getting into caps in the first place. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[RAIN] GarrusBrutus Players 3,711 posts 12,557 battles Report post #6771 Posted January 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, Farheim said: My narrative is that CV is not that important in randoms as some people here think. You can't turn the tables, it's not a guaranteed victory, he won't overweight a division of three even just very good players, not unicorns. I don't say that either. What I am saying is that the game is way more interesting and fun without them, as the battle for vision control is a great part of the core gameplay. What I am also saying is that if you're a 3000pr player, you can play around any dd/bb/ca but you cannot outmanoeuvre a 45%wr cvs planes who happens to have a hard-on for me after watching his matchmaker monitor. That's why top clans unanimously voted against CV's in KOTS. I rather face players like El2 in a TX surface ship than in a T8 CV. 13 minutes ago, Farheim said: Yeah? Yet when I set conditions like 'no cv, no radar, your dd's dead' you guys suddenly freak out. :^) Go on, tell me how are you gonna counter 1-2-3 dds without having any of said counterplays. Nobody freaks out. You try to make a point using flawed arguments creating situations that heavily favor one specific class, be it DDs or cvs. That's the whole point of the rock-paper-scissors design of WoWs: each class counters another one. Without bbs I would dunk on DDs with my cruiser, without cruisers I would dunk on bbs with my dd and without DDs I would dunk on cruisers in my bbs. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farheim Players 182 posts 6,723 battles Report post #6772 Posted January 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, AndyHill said: it's very human to start thinking of them as the root of all evil in all the games you lose, because it's always "not-you" You know you'll have some really hard time explaining to me how a trio of dds suiciding in first 5 minutes is my fault and that I should try to look at things from a different angle and all that stuff. I hate dd's when I play CA/BB, y'know as a surface ship player. When I play CV I'm like 'eh what a bunch of idiots' and try to compensate for their f-ups by killing enemy dds/providing some spot. But when I play a bb and suddenly find myself in a situation when my flank is left without spot and we have no ways to deal with the enemy dd... yea that's the moment where I start think of dds as the root of all evil. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] DFens_666 Players 13,162 posts 11,029 battles Report post #6773 Posted January 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Farheim said: You know you'll have some really hard time explaining to me how a trio of dds suiciding in first 5 minutes is my fault and that I should try to look at things from a different angle and all that stuff. I hate dd's when I play CA/BB, y'know as a surface ship player. When I play CV I'm like 'eh what a bunch of idiots' and try to compensate for their f-ups by killing enemy dds/providing some spot. But when I play a bb and suddenly find myself in a situation when my flank is left without spot and we have no ways to deal with the enemy dd... yea that's the moment when I start think of dds as the root of all evil. You do understand you just described why CVs are OP and dont care at all what their team is doing? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farheim Players 182 posts 6,723 battles Report post #6774 Posted January 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said: I don't say that either. You don't, but (some) people here do. 12 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said: you cannot outmanoeuvre a 45%wr cvs I mean, he can keep you spotted that's true, but he'll struggle to do some real damage. But that's just my experience against bad CVs maybe you have it harder coz of your purple clan and stats. 16 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said: You try to make a point using flawed arguments creating situations Sad thing is I'm not creating them, I find myself in them. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farheim Players 182 posts 6,723 battles Report post #6775 Posted January 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, DFens_666 said: You do understand you just described why CVs are OP and dont care at all what their team is doing? CV is stronger than any other class, I never said otherwise. But the second part is not true. I don't care as much as surface ships, because they're the ones who gonna take it in the [edited], I don't take any damage and I'm not getting torped and pressured. However I care about winning and dead dds mean that I have to play at my absolute best to compensate and that is very exhausting. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
