General CV related discussions.

[Farheim]

On 1/16/2021 at 11:40 PM, Sunleader said:

I have NEVER EVEN ONCE Won a Game where my CV did something Stupid and got himself Killed Early in the Game.

You clearly didn't read what I've written properly. Bad CV doesn't mean that he gets himself killed. Nor actually a dd, I've seen plenty of awful dds who simply hide behind bbs and try to launch torps, but their impact is irrelevant as you can guess, they might as well been dead. The difference between having a bad solo dd is that you get completly outspotted and torped from all sides, while the difference between having a bad cv and a somewhat competent is well... ? And again we are not talking about unicum cv/dd against total bot, it's about [edited]and the one who simply stays alive and provides the spot. And if you'll tell me that you neve was able to win against a ~53% wr CV while having a 45% CV on your side - I'd call BS on that.

 

On 1/16/2021 at 11:51 PM, Capra76 said:

n terms of direct damage from the DD it takes out 90%

I didn't recieve a single point of damage from that gearing, however my team got assraped. Yes I'm here to defend CV, when CV's neither team has a spotting advantage, while in that case where one dd's dead from the start and the other one has freetime torping and spotting people... eh not so.

 

On 1/16/2021 at 11:51 PM, Capra76 said:

And the fact that you don't run the skill shows just how relevant your argument is anyway.

I'm sorry I'm not taking lessons on how I should or shouldn't play cruisers, nor what captain skills should I learn first, especially from you. Am I being clear with you buddy?

[DFens_666]

10 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That makes no sense, how do you dodge, when an enemy DD is capping or outspotting the team.

 

Yet when a CV is spotting + attacking you and the team shoots you aswell, "just dodge" is a correct answer?

 

That really only shows what mindset players have when they touch CV:

Only I am attacking the ship, I want MY damage on that ship, the ship can just dodge MY attack, thats so unfair

 

38 minutes ago, Farheim said:

Can you win a game when your dd's dead from the start and enemy's alive and you have no radars? Nope, not a chance.

 

Now thats just bullcrap...

[Capra76]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

There is no need for RPF, if the DDs location is known anyways. Especially since the RPF is so inaccurate. Not saying RPF is useless, but not always worth the 4 points on any ship.

 

Not saying the same either, but if the argument is "oh no! BB v DD" then the answer is that there is a skill that can solve most of that problem and if players aren't running it then it's probably not that big a problem in the first place.

[Capra76]

4 minutes ago, Farheim said:

I'm sorry I'm not taking lessons on how I should or shouldn't play cruisers, nor what captain skills should I learn first, especially from you. Am I being clear with you buddy?

 

The abuse of forum rules is quite clear thank you........

 

............buddy.

[Farheim]

Just now, DFens_666 said:

Now thats just bullcrap...

You're most welcome to share your experience, but please provide something more than 'I DID JUST THAT'. Like a couple of screenshots would certainly strengthen your point.

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, Farheim said:

You clearly didn't read what I've written properly. Bad CV doesn't mean that he gets himself killed. Nor actually a dd, I've seen plenty of awful dds who simply hide behind bbs and try to launch torps, but their impact is irrelevant as you can guess, they might as well been dead. The difference between having a bad solo dd is that you get completly outspotted and torped from all sides, while the difference between having a bad cv and a somewhat competent is well... ? And again we are not talking about unicum cv/dd against total bot, it's about retard and the one who simply stays alive and provides the spot. And if you'll tell me that you neve was able to win against a ~53% wr CV while having a 45% CV on your side - I'd call BS on that.

That's a good point, while 99% of the games are like not playing against a super unicum CV, in this forum it feels like the arguments are 99% based on super unicum plays ^^

[BLUB__BLUB]

26 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I played today a Ryujo game and we lost in 6 minutes something.There was also an Atlanta with 16 plane kills v_v

I could do 1 drop, then all planes gone

You can drop Atalanta's very easily with Ryujo, just come in with bombers front-rear and vary the speed.

Make sure you get away quickly though. And then do it again.... also they are so flimsy rockets work great, too. 

I have Flint and it can make a huuuuuge smokescreen, it is a lot more trouble for the average CV. 

If an Atlanta gives you trouble, just spot him - any fart in his general direction will kill him. 

[Pikkozoikum]

14 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Yet when a CV is spotting + attacking you and the team shoots you aswell, "just dodge" is a correct answer?

I don't get the context, when I say, that I often struggle against some DD match ups.

But yes, I dodge these attacks quite often, just today I described how :3

 

14 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Only I am attacking the ship, I want MY damage on that ship, the ship can just dodge MY attack, thats so unfair

Some might have that

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You can drop Atalanta's very easily with Ryujo, just come in with bombers front-rear and vary the speed.

Make sure you get away quickly though. And then do it again.... also they are so flimsy rockets work great, too. 

I have Flint and it can make a huuuuuge smokescreen, it is a lot more trouble for the average CV. 

If an Atlanta gives you trouble, just spot him - any fart in his general direction will kill him. 

The Atlanta was not alone, though I think she did the major damage ^^

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The Atlanta was not alone, though I think she did the major damage ^^

Well then use torps to scatter them. But yes Atlanta can produce nice dakka. 

Usually it is the IJN DD that you pass that kills you though. He be proud... 

[Pikkozoikum]

9 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Not saying the same either, but if the argument is "oh no! BB v DD" then the answer is that there is a skill that can solve most of that problem and if players aren't running it then it's probably not that big a problem in the first place.

My problem is never to know the position of the DD. The Problem is, that there is a DD and nobody can deal with it, while we lose. The only thing I can do is running away to make Torpedos less effecitve

Another topic, that's why I don't understand the hate against submarines. The submarines get spotted with passive-hydro and those are slow, so you can run away easily, but not against a DD, and with submarines, the DD will get even more influence, since they can sink those quite easily

[DFens_666]

6 minutes ago, Farheim said:

You're most welcome to share your experience, but please provide something more than 'I DID JUST THAT'. Like a couple of screenshots would certainly strengthen your point.

 

I mean, thats really hard to prove actually? The best i could show, is my teams DD are all dead while enemy DD is still alive.

My DDs are last places, or does this not count because i have a CV in the division?

 

Otherwise this, my DDs dead, enemy Fletcher still alive.

[Farheim]

3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I mean, thats really hard to prove actually?

Apparantely so, because I'm talking about 'no cv and instantly dead dd's' kind of situations, and you showed none of those. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  And to an extend 'no radars' but that would make it completely impossible to prove my point wrong, I know.

[DFens_666]

Just now, Farheim said:

Apparantely so, because I'm talking about 'no cv and instantly dead dd's' kind of situations, and you showed none of those. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

So how am i supposed to prove that my DDs died at the start of the game?

[Farheim]

2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

So how am i supposed to prove that my DDs died at the start of the game?

Clearly not by showing the ostergotland being top 2.  Like being at the bottom of the score like on my screenshot.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Just now, DFens_666 said:

 

So how am i supposed to prove that my DDs died at the start of the game?

Some posts are just made to make the world burn be ignored...

Especially in this thread.

And especially if coming from some regulars posting here.

Sometimes it's just not worth thinking about finding an answer.

[arquata2019_]

58 minuti fa, BLUB__BLUB ha scritto:

Why are you complaining.... look what I got...

 

what a long battle, i've once had a 5-6min game.

what's the record of lowest battle time you ever had people?

[BLUB__BLUB]

19 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

My problem is never to know the position of the DD. The Problem is, that there is a DD and nobody can deal with it, while we lose. The only thing I can do is running away to make Torpedos less effecitve

To know the position, follow the torps... works. 

Then you sort of guess where he is, and start the aim. This is guesswork though. 

And there is lots of ways to deal with DDs. Rockets, but I prefer bombs and torps. 

And if you cannot kill them, just GET THEM killed....

 

They have nerfed spotting and dispersion and all that, so it is now a lot harder to deal with DDs. 

The thing is I'd like WeeGee to tell that to the rest of the players as well... 

Some DDs know it, and they sneak through to get themselves a nice PELT. 

I always give them a +1 if they manage to kill my CV. 

[Pikkozoikum]

20 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

To know the position, follow the torps... works. 

Then you sort of guess where he is, and start the aim. This is guesswork though. 

And there is lots of ways to deal with DDs. Rockets, but I prefer bombs and torps. 

And if you cannot kill them, just GET THEM killed....

We don't talk about CVs vs DDs.

It was mentioned, that some of us rather enjoy a CV in a match, than a DD, espeically when the DD skill gap is large.

As a BB or most cruiser, you know often the position of the DD somehow, but you can't deal with it... you can't see the DD, and you can't just aim your guns towards the torpedo direction ^^

 

 

[GarrusBrutus]

2 hours ago, Farheim said:

Apparantely so, because I'm talking about 'no cv and instantly dead dd's' kind of situations, and you showed none of those. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  And to an extend 'no radars' but that would make it completely impossible to prove my point wrong, I know.

What kind of cherrypicking is that to make the "point" that the game is not fun without cvs?

-> no cv and instantly dead dd's' kind of situations <- 

How is that any different from having a good cv who hunts the dds (or other vital targets in case of DD absence) vs a mouthbreathing ape as a cv who goes cv sniping? The result will be the same: Dead or atleast crippled DDs and useful spotting for the good cv's team.

I don't know which game you guys play where the absence of CVs in a game is somehow less fun? Because the very absence of that class in a game means the other three classes can actually play the game and fight for objectives and vision control. There is simply so much stuff you cannot do if you have to account for unexpected and unavoidable CV spotting.

 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, GarrusBrutus said:

What kind of cherrypicking is that to make the "point" that the game is not fun without cvs?

-> no cv and instantly dead dd's' kind of situations <- 

How is that any different from having a good cv who hunts the dds (or other vital targets in case of DD absence) vs a mouthbreathing ape as a cv who goes cv sniping? The result will be the same: Dead or atleast crippled DDs and useful spotting for the good cv's team. 

I don't know which game you guys play where the absence of CVs in a game is somehow less fun? Because the very absence of that class in a game means the other three classes can actually play the game and fight for objectives and vision control. There is simply so much stuff you cannot do if you have to account for unexpected and unavoidable CV spotting.

 

But that's the point. A CV can attack DDs. If you don't have a CV and your DD dies, then the teams are in a pretty big imbalance. But with a CV, they can balance it and hunt the enemy DD to make it even.

The best way to get a DD are DDs, Radar and CVs.

Radars are semi-effective, if you don't have a CV, what does counter a DD? Right, only another DD. Now your DD dies. WHat counters then the DD?
That's why we said, that we like CV in matches. The CV can counter the DD, or at least stop him from aggressive plays. 

Also the CV provides spotting even when your side lost the DD. And if you have a bad CV player, he still will do some kind of passive spotting

 

That's why I like CVs espeically when I play a BB. Because the DDs are a larger threat.

[Sunleader]

7 hours ago, Farheim said:

You clearly didn't read what I've written properly. Bad CV doesn't mean that he gets himself killed. Nor actually a dd, I've seen plenty of awful dds who simply hide behind bbs and try to launch torps, but their impact is irrelevant as you can guess, they might as well been dead. The difference between having a bad solo dd is that you get completly outspotted and torped from all sides, while the difference between having a bad cv and a somewhat competent is well... ? And again we are not talking about unicum cv/dd against total bot, it's about retard and the one who simply stays alive and provides the spot. And if you'll tell me that you neve was able to win against a ~53% wr CV while having a 45% CV on your side - I'd call BS on that.

 

I didn't recieve a single point of damage from that gearing, however my team got assraped. Yes I'm here to defend CV, when CV's neither team has a spotting advantage, while in that case where one dd's dead from the start and the other one has freetime torping and spotting people... eh not so.

 

I'm sorry I'm not taking lessons on how I should or shouldn't play cruisers, nor what captain skills should I learn first, especially from you. Am I being clear with you buddy?

 

Equality is the Key to that my Friend.

I will Always assume the Same Skill Level for both Scenarios.

 

So my Answer to this is Pretty Simple.

 

You Use a 53% Winrate CV on one Side.

That also means that you Claim. In a Solo DD Game where your DD is a Potato not doing his Job or getting himself Killed Early. And the Enemy has 53% Winrate DD. You cannot Possibly Win ?

 

No Offense Mate.

But even here. Having a 53% CV against my Team which has a Useless CV. Would in my Eyes be MUUUUUCH Worse and much Harder to Turn around. Than my Team having a Potato DD and the Enemy having a 53% Winrate DD.

 

(Albeit that already is Pretty Unequal. A Competent CV has much higher Winrate than a DD of the same Skillevel. Because a CV Generally has way more Influence in Random Battles. I wouldnt call a CV Competent unless he is at least in the 55-60% Range. But thats just a Minor Sidenote....)

[CptBarney]

i can see why poshyanai likes the thread soo much.

 

[El2aZeR]

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If you don't have a CV and your DD dies, then the teams are in a pretty big imbalance.

 

And if your CV is too stupid to attack and kill the enemy DD while the enemy CV is not, that too creates unequal teams. In fact because there is no counter against CVs while there are to DDs it becomes even more unequal.

Once again utterly fallacious argumentation. Or alternatively blatantly dishonest.

[DFens_666]

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But that's the point. A CV can attack DDs. If you don't have a CV and your DD dies, then the teams are in a pretty big imbalance. But with a CV, they can balance it and hunt the enemy DD to make it even.

The best way to get a DD are DDs, Radar and CVs.

Radars are semi-effective, if you don't have a CV, what does counter a DD? Right, only another DD. Now your DD dies. WHat counters then the DD?
That's why we said, that we like CV in matches. The CV can counter the DD, or at least stop him from aggressive plays. 

Also the CV provides spotting even when your side lost the DD. And if you have a bad CV player, he still will do some kind of passive spotting

 

I think its more cherrypicking to say, that there is no CV, no Radar and all DDs dead while enemy DDs are competent. How often do you actually get no CV/Radar games anymore? I doubt it happens that often, that you can ONLY blame the DD for losing. Its not an instant loss, especially if there is only 1 enemy DD. He cant spot the entire map, so there is atleast 1 flank which doesnt have a DD at all, so how can a DD be blamed if that flank loses aswell?

That one CV is competent and the other just wont spot DDs is actually not a rare case imo. Thats why i actually prefer a CV in the division with me, since i know he is capable. Nothing worse than having a mouthbreather, who will get rushed by 1 or 2 DDs (yes, seen that happen), and still ignores those DDs.

If id have to chose a class, which i dont need in a 3x div any longer, it would be Cruisers. You need a CV to dont get an idiot, you need a DD for capping and you need a BB because all BBs are Mongerers who never move from spawn, so you need a pair of big guns as a threat.

 

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That's why I like CVs espeically when I play a BB. Because the DDs are a larger threat.

 

BBs are still the best class to push into DDs, because Cruisers will be permaspotted in the open, attracting fire from enemy BBs. Thats actually the reason, why a DD imbalance feels so bad: The BBabies dont have the guts to actually push the DD away and they probably would get devstruck anyway because they dont know ASD keys.