General CV related discussions.

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I disagree.  First of all I was talking about the skill gap + imfluence of CVs.

 

Influence of CVs has statistically remained the same. You disagreeing therefore just makes you factually wrong.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

This surface ship has AA, but also knowledge.

 

Part of CV skill is also how to deny the enemy surface ship their supposed counters, meaning that the outcome of the engagement depends solely on the skill of the CV player. Possessing knowledge that whatever you do, if the enemy CV is skilled enough he will just make it null and void doesn't help you in any way, shape or form.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

What you are saying, I doubt that heavily, half a team of unicorns will stop another team pretty fast. A CV player can't compensate that.

 

Been there, done that. In fact @BLUB__BLUB has seen it happen fairly recently, no?

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

that was a 56% WR player, so he was not bad

 

This is an oxymoron.

Due to the extreme influence of the class the basis of just a not completely incompetent CV player starts at 60%+ WR. See Gibbins or TopTier for example who are terrible CV players who have only grasped, not even mastered the fundamental basics yet can easily manage unicum stats.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

So there are some broken CVs, but when we talk about CVs generally, they are not that much worth, then some believe.

 

Weird how you measure RTS CVs by only their most powerful representatives then.

Like,

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

In RTS he gets me with one Strike.

how many RTS CVs could actually oneshot a full HP same tier BB in a single strike? The low and mid tiers couldn't, the high tiers only if they either baited DCP or used AP bombs on a very narrow band of targets.

 

It is funny that you keep insisting on comparing the most powerful RTS CVs to only the weakest rework ones. Could it be that you have no interest in an actually fair comparison to begin with?

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Because it's up to me as a surface player and not up to my CV player. I have more control over the situation then against RTS.

 

Except you do not since a method of effectively influencing airspace no longer exists. This is a laughable fallacy.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I played many games since CV rework and never had a bad experience.

 

Facts don't care about your feelings.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Sadly my Shimakaze had no DefAA back in those times. Nor any good AA v_v

 

Now no ship has good AA anymore and DFAA is largely worthless. How exactly is this supposed to be an improvement?

Lets ask @Chaos_Umbra for example who has just faced me in his Atlanta with DFAA equipped. How did it go attempting to cover your teammates or defending yourself from air strikes?

[Chaos_Umbra]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Lets ask @Chaos_Umbra for example who has just faced me in his Atlanta with DFAA equipped. How did it go attempting to cover your teammates or defending yourself from air strikes?

It was totally fun and engaging I managed to kill a whole 16 planes and only one of them was a fighter!!!!!

 

And did 19k damage that game.

 

Well there was no stopping any of the attacks, just killed a few planes after they dropped, was a bit surprised that I even got that many TBH...

 

Obviously you still were fielding full squadrons until you went for our CV.

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

It was totally fun and engaging I managed to kill a whole 16 planes and only one of them was a fighter!!!!!

 

And did 19k damage that game.

 

Well there was no stopping any of the attacks, just killed a few planes after they dropped, was a bit surprised that I even got that many TBH...

 

Obviously you still were fielding full squadrons until you went for our CV.

I got yesterday one-shotted by a Slawa over 20 km range, over 60k dmg. (Yoshino)

So BBs must be OP then? Because that is the argumentation style here mostly.

 

Good CV player vs bad surface ships -> CV Broken.

Good surface ship player vs other surface ship player or CVs -> everything fine.

 

I think the DPM of CVs is actually quite low. The total damage in statistic is mostly so high, because they never die early. Thus they have more time do deal damage than others. A DD that dies after 3 Minutes against a Radar cruisers will recorded with 0 dmg, that doesn't happen with CV in most cases.

 

Beside that losing is rarely fun for players and happens every match. I one shotted others in my BB, and nobody complains about op bbs, because they know, they did a mistake. But nobody knows, when they do mistakes against CVs

[Chaos_Umbra]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I got yesterday one-shotted by a Slawa over 20 km range, over 60k dmg. (Yoshino)

So BBs must be OP then? Because that is the argumentation style here mostly.

 

Good CV player vs bad surface ships -> CV Broken.

Good surface ship player vs other surface ship player or CVs -> everything fine.

 

I think the DPM of CVs is actually quite low. The total damage in statistic is mostly so high, because they never die early. Thus they have more time do deal damage than others. A DD that dies after 3 Minutes against a Radar cruisers will recorded with 0 dmg, that doesn't happen with CV in most cases.

 

Beside that losing is rarely fun for players and happens every match. I one shotted others in my BB, and nobody complains about op bbs, because they know, they did a mistake. But nobody knows, when they do mistakes against CVs

I don't actually get your point here, I was asked for the match that we played from my perspective in what was originally a no fly zone Cruiser (pre-CV rework) and was designed and built as an AA support cruiser, can't even dent the attacks of a CV on friendly DDs. first DD was my div mate, he managed to survive the first squadron in his T7 French DD, but obviously the second squad launched finished him, then I moved to support the friendly Jervis, that went a bit better as he has smoke but still he went down with no trouble. After that point I was charged down by the Soyuz that was left unspotted buy our friendly CV and I got smacked then finished off by El2aZeR in his Enterprise.

 

At no point in my post did I go crying about so and so ship being OP or what not, I just gave a bit of a tongue and cheek reply from my perspective as I was asked.

 

If you want my opinion on CVs there was more counter play with the old RTS version TBH, though there was a massive skill gap between players and there still is. This will always heavily factor in the game as most of the time there is only 1 CV per team and if your 1 is worthless there is no other ship to take up the slack. Just like being in a match with only 1 DD per team and the DD on your team refuses to go near the caps, refuses to spot, and instead goes around the map boarder to try and get behind the enemy BBs to attack them in spawn, I think you will find the game much harder to win than if that was a competent DD player, same thing as CV except there are more often than not more than 1 DD per team so as long as 1 is competent you can recover.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

I don't actually get your point here, I was asked for the match that we played from my perspective in what was originally a no fly zone Cruiser (pre-CV rework) and was designed and built as an AA support cruiser, can't even dent the attacks of a CV on friendly DDs. first DD was my div mate, he managed to survive the first squadron in his T7 French DD, but obviously the second squad launched finished him, then I moved to support the friendly Jervis, that went a bit better as he has smoke but still he went down with no trouble. After that point I was charged down by the Soyuz that was left unspotted buy our friendly CV and I got smacked then finished off by El2aZeR in his Enterprise.

Enterprise is higher tier and OP. But well, there are no fly zones, they changed the concept of the interaction. It's about destroying as many planes as possible  to reduce strike power and mitigate the launched strikes.

 

I played today Ryujo in a T8 match and I have 0 impact. A Cleveland melts all my planes and even when I hit the first strike, it barely takes any hp.

2 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

If you want my opinion on CVs there was more counter play with the old RTS version TBH, though there was a massive skill gap between players and there still is. This will always heavily factor in the game as most of the time there is only 1 CV per team and if your 1 is worthless there is no other ship to take up the slack. Just like being in a match with only 1 DD per team and the DD on your team refuses to go near the caps, refuses to spot, and instead goes around the map boarder to try and get behind the enemy BBs to attack them in spawn, I think you will find the game much harder to win than if that was a competent DD player, same thing as CV except there are more often than not more than 1 DD per team so as long as 1 is competent you can recover.

There were hard-counters, but those were limited to specific ships. It has to be a AA-heavy ship or a CV, otherwise you are dead. Right now every ship can survive a CV for pretty long, if not for the whole match. I can tell that, I play mainly only IJN and those are mostly all bad against CVs. Only the Kii was good against CV. In the 1vs1 Brawl she was still superior

 

That's why I brought my example with the Nagato, where I just got deleted. That can't happen anymore, except with detos.

 

Yes, the DD is also the other point. DDs are very influencial in this game, that's why I hate DDs way more as an enemy, than CVs. I can deal with CVs way better

[UnderDuress]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I played today Ryujo in a T8 match and I have 0 impact. A Cleveland melts all my planes and even when I hit the first strike, it barely takes any hp.

Ah yes, CV blunders in to a situation it shouldn’t, looses a few planes. And there are plenty of tier 8 ships with poor AA anyway.

Any surface ship that deliberately tries to fight something that is supposed to be good against it and 2 tiers higher would love to be able to just press F and go somewhere else.

[arquata2019_]

and here is me: while i play shokaku i meet an halland i can attack it normally (an actual smart halland with AA off and activates it when im near enough to get detected by my planes, 2,8km i think) and, i may lose quite some planes attacking it (or few planes) but still, i can deal 7k to him.

and, if you all gonna watch my overall stats on shokaku are bad, but just take a look at my ranked shokaku stats and those are recent ones.

[DFens_666]

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But nobody knows, when they do mistakes against CVs

 

Well if playing the game counts as a mistake...

 

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I got yesterday one-shotted by a Slawa over 20 km range, over 60k dmg. (Yoshino)

So BBs must be OP then? Because that is the argumentation style here mostly.

 

If you would have angled, what would have happened? Exactly, pretty much nothing.

Since you obviously know how to counter CVs, why not tell us how to do it, without blobbing up or camping in spawn. Maybe we can get a Unicum CV into a training room, and you make us a training video how to do it, so we can all git gud and counter CVs

[Yosha_AtaIante]

3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Well if playing the game counts as a mistake...

 

 

If you would have angled, what would have happened? Exactly, pretty much nothing.

Since you obviously know how to counter CVs, why not tell us how to do it, without blobbing up or camping in spawn. Maybe we can get a Unicum CV into a training room, and you make us a training video how to do it, so we can all git gud and counter CVs

can I can I can I can I can I can I can? 

[BLUB__BLUB]

10 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Been there, done that. In fact @BLUB__BLUB has seen it happen fairly recently, no?

 Yes have @Pikkozoikum. BTW masterrrrrr, if you mean THAT game, well, you may have noticed that I was in DD (LOL), my mate was in the German CV (first game, double LOL),

and our DD player took a BB (he's not bad actually) so maybe that would have been a win for you even if you were sleeping. 

 

I have even done it myself, though I am not unicum by far in a CV. But if I am "enough better", I have lots more influence.

Not enough to be good (except in some CVs), though I will usually outrun the other CV by 50% xp (before the 2x win factor).
But a real unicum will do twice or more the XP that the other CV does. Now that in itself doesn't mean that much.

But he'll also outperform twice the XP that a unicum in a BB or whatever does. Therefore being at least twice as effective.

 

And I have seen it happen quite a lot. If your CV-player is potat and the other side gets, say, Masterrr @El2aZeR, ()

there is only ONE WAY that game is gonna end. Even if you have 3 unicums in surface ships in your team. 

 

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I played today Ryujo in a T8 match and I have 0 impact. A Cleveland melts all my planes and even when I hit the first strike, it barely takes any hp.

I played - for research only of course - reeworked CVs a bit. Including Ryujo. And I met quite a few T8 that were "no fly zone" ships earlier during that time... Even I learned how not to attack them and to go for easier targets, but only because I am lazy and because of most of the time the ain't high on the priority list of targets anyway...

And yes, a Cleveland can melt T6 CV planes... but it also can - as in RTS times - get baited into using it consumables and is not much more dangerous than the average T8 cruiser after that for T6 planes... like... just an agent target.

 

I can do it... and by ElRaZeR's standard I am only a potato in reeworked CVs... so, @Pikkozoikum, what - except a liar - makes that of You?

[Farheim]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

And I have seen it happen quite a lot. If your CV-player is potat and the other side gets, say, Masterrr @El2aZeR
there is only ONE WAY that game is gonna end. Even if you have 3 unicums in surface ships in your team. 

And I've never seen that happen, neither from surface-ship perspective, nor from CV point of view. Oh and I think I've met him. That was my first FDR game so I had no clue and just had fun bullying enemy Conq. As you can tell that is not the most effective way of playing FDR, but you guess what? I've won.

 

Cleveland is actually a fairly easy target for Ryuujou. Most of the time they're parked behind the island, so you can do what you usually do in ranked/CBs - predrop and use that island as a cover to drop some ap bombs on his [edited]

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Farheim said:

And I've never seen that happen, neither from surface-ship perspective, nor from CV point of view. Oh and I think I've met him. That was my first FDR game so I had no clue and just had fun bullying enemy Conq. As you can tell that is not the most effective way of playing FDR, but you guess what? I've won.

he must have had an off day... cannot imagine MASTERRR @El2aZeR losing a game. 

 

1 hour ago, Farheim said:

Cleveland is actually a fairly easy target for Ryuujou. Most of the time they're parked behind the island, so you can do what you usually do in ranked/CBs - predrop and use that island as a cover to drop some ap bombs on his [edited]

I know.

This is why I know: 

 

Spoiler

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Just now, BLUB__BLUB said:

he must have had an off day... cannot imagine MASTERRR @El2aZeR losing a game. 

 

I know.

This is why I know: 

 

  Hide contents

 

Holy crap BLUB you are getting scary

[Farheim]

Oh look CV can totally carry a bunch of mongoloids against a bunch of unicorns amirite? Oh no he doesn't, not when colorado dies to strasbourg 1v1 at least.

 

[DFens_666]

11 minutes ago, Farheim said:

Oh look CV can totally carry a bunch of mongoloids against a bunch of unicorns amirite? Oh no he doesn't, not when colorado dies to strasbourg 1v1 at least.

 

Which unicums?

The enemy Z, who has 48% WR? Thats actually being generous, he has <45% in his Z46...

Id contribute this loss to the mongs on your team - not to the enemies being good. The enemy Z didnt have that much damage (according to his stats 56k and 2 kills), so i just assume he killed your mong DDs to get that much XP. The biggest issue for a CV not being able to carry his team is, if they die too fast.

Even i manage to do that, i just need more time than better CV players. Played a few Enty battles in ranked, and in the 2 losses, my team would just rush ahead and die, so i couldnt do it. The bigger question is, how would you carry them in any other ship? Answer basicly is, you couldnt. CVs can already carry better than other ships. Maybe if the enemies are really really dumb, and you are in an accurate BB, you might be able to keep it even if you delete ships left and right. Still need good RNG on your side tho, but atleast you could outdamage a CV that way.

[AndyHill]

10 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I got yesterday one-shotted by a Slawa over 20 km range, over 60k dmg. (Yoshino)

If you have the replay it would be interesting to see if there's something you could've done to avoid the situation or if it's just Slava being the broken design it's universally considered to be.

[Farheim]

26 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Which unicums?

Like their Surrey and Irian? Oh sorry they're a couple of % lower than unicorns, my bad. But sitll them not being unicums kinda strengthens my point, not Blub's.

26 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

CVs can already carry better than other ships.

That is true but not to the extend of 'good CV can carry everyone'. Frankly that assumption infuriates me coz there were so many games where I literally oblitirated enemy team and yet ultimately lost. Honestly sometimes CV feels like a nanny that needs to take care of too many kids. Oh look a baby peed himself, oh another one is hungry, and these two feel sick, CV HAAAALP. You can't be everywhere, but you need to be everywhere. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Other ships don't have that kind of an issue. Except perhaps dds at times.

[AndyHill]

9 minutes ago, Farheim said:

Other ships don't have that kind of an issue.

They can be everywhere at once?

[Farheim]

2 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

They can be everywhere at once?

They don't need to because their firing range usually allows them to effectively cover two caps at any one time. 

[AndyHill]

5 minutes ago, Farheim said:

They don't need to because their firing range usually allows them to effectively cover two caps at any one time. 

On some maps at some times, yes. Effectively? Very rarely. Also two caps isn't usually "everywhere".

[Sunleader]

13 minutes ago, Farheim said:

Like their Surrey and Irian? Oh sorry they're a couple of % lower than unicorns, my bad. But sitll them not being unicums kinda strengthens my point, not Blub's.

That is true but not to the extend of 'good CV can carry everyone'. Frankly that assumption infuriates me coz there were so many games where I literally oblitirated enemy team and yet ultimately lost. Honestly sometimes CV feels like a nanny that needs to take care of too many kids. Oh look a baby peed himself, oh another one is hungry, and these two feel sick, CV HAAAALP. You can't be everywhere, but you need to be everywhere. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Other ships don't have that kind of an issue. Except perhaps dds at times.

 

Joke is.

That Feeling is the Testament to how OP CVs are.

 

As any other Ship.

I deal with my Situation.

Sure. If I am good. I will Carry more than just my Fair Share of Weight.

And if I rock my Side then afterwards I may even be Capable of picking up the Slag of the other Side.

But mostly I am fully Aware that I am only Capable of dealing with my Situation.

And unless the Enemy gives me one Managable Situation at a Time that I can Carry.

I wont be able to Carry.

 

 

As a CV this is different.

And thats also why I by now absolutely dont like Playing CV anymore.

 

I am Constantly Carrying. Picking up Slag. Fixing messups.

And I can literally See how things go Badly whenever I make a Wrong Decision or prioritize the Wrong Situation.

 

It feels like your basicly Babysitting a frigging Horde of Kids which are supposed to each do a Specific Activity but constantly mess up or do something else entirely. Requiring you to clean it up.

 

 

 

Now.

A CV cannot Carry everything. That is True.

Sometimes even the Best Player just Cannot handle it.

 

But. A CV clearly Carries more than any other Ship.

 

1 Unicum CV is easily enough to Carry as much as 2 Unicums of another Class.

 

And if Pitted against each other.

A Unicum CV will pretty much always have the Better Cards.

Because he can prevent the Enemy Unicums from Carrying their Area easiöy while in between also taking Actions to Carry Areas where the Enemy Unicums cant reach and thus cant even Counter it.

 

 

 

[Farheim]

2 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

On some maps at some times, yes.

That's already more than a CV's capable of, 'covering' wise.

3 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Effectively? Very rarely

Depends on what ship we are talking about. Long range snipers like Yamato, Republique, Thunderer? Absolutley at any given time on basically any map there is, they're a threat on any range to almost anyone. And that's their feature. Mid-close range farmers like Minotaur, DM? Yeah they can only cover only 1 objective at a time.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

The biggest issue for a CV not being able to carry his team is, if they die too fast.

THAT is indeed the only thing that prevents a CV form v cleaning up the entire map.

Plus that thee team might be sooooo incredibly bad, reds will seep through and kill the CV. 

Although that rarely happens. 

 

51 minutes ago, Farheim said:

Like their Surrey and Irian? Oh sorry they're a couple of % lower than unicorns, my bad. But sitll them not being unicums kinda strengthens my point, not Blub's.

That is true but not to the extend of 'good CV can carry everyone'. Frankly that assumption infuriates me coz there were so many games where I literally oblitirated enemy team and yet ultimately lost. Honestly sometimes CV feels like a nanny that needs to take care of too many kids. Oh look a baby peed himself, oh another one is hungry, and these two feel sick, CV HAAAALP. You can't be everywhere, but you need to be everywhere. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Other ships don't have that kind of an issue. Except perhaps dds at times.

NOW you've got it. 

 

21 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Now.

A CV cannot Carry everything. That is True.

Sometimes even the Best Player just Cannot handle it.

 

But. A CV clearly Carries more than any other Ship.

 

1 Unicum CV is easily enough to Carry as much as 2 Unicums of another Class.

 

And if Pitted against each other.

A Unicum CV will pretty much always have the Better Cards.

Because he can prevent the Enemy Unicums from Carrying their Area easiöy while in between also taking Actions to Carry Areas where the Enemy Unicums cant reach and thus cant even Counter it.

I'd say there is one more factor: who can farm the potatoes the fastest. 

 

As such the faster CVs are able to carry more, because they are FAST. 

Fast enough to farm faster than the taters can throw it, well, remains to be seen. 

But probably they can farm faster than two or three unicums in the reds. 

 

1 hour ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

Holy crap BLUB you are getting scary

Nah I already am, a bit. But I don't go babysitting, this is a game after all. 

Harvest the salt, but well if they wanna lose, they lose. It's not my goal to get unicum WR or something.

I usually just like to play with buddies. And yes sometimes I'll "babysit" those or help them farm damage.

Which is fun. After all, that's why I play it. 

[Farheim]

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

I am Constantly Carrying. Picking up Slag. Fixing messups.

And I can literally See how things go Badly whenever I make a Wrong Decision or prioritize the Wrong Situation.

 

It feels like your basicly Babysitting a frigging Horde of Kids which are supposed to each do a Specific Activity but constantly mess up or do something else entirely. Requiring you to clean it up.

YES, exactly. And the worst part - everyone expects you to do all that. Like nobody expects a BB to carry the team right? Or a cruiser. Even dd's, frankly all they need to do is 'not die in first 3 minutes' and that's enough to be complimented.