General CV related discussions.

[BanzaiPiluso]

2 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Ofcourse not, 
they figured out it was CVs what broke the chat server.. so they removed it. 

Please go celebrate it by playing a TRB kagero! 

The best Christmas ever!

Thanks WG!

You are the best!

[Excavatus]

1 minute ago, Winged_Cat_Dormant said:

The best Christmas ever!

Thanks WG!

You are the best!

jokes aside.. 
do you think people will forget all the 2020 disasters including makarovgate If they decided to remove CVs from the game? 
will people celebrate ? 

[ForlornSailor]

2 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

do you think people will forget all the 2020 disasters including makarovgate If they decided to remove CVs from the game? 

 

Makarovgate > COVID19 but CV-rework still > Makarovgate so... eeh, possible?

[BanzaiPiluso]

Just now, Excavatus said:

jokes aside.. 
do you think people will forget all the 2020 disasters including makarovgate If they decided to remove CVs from the game? 
will people celebrate ? 

It would be the most glorious day.

 

[geschlittert]

played yesterday. FDR nearly every single damn game. disgusting experience

[BLUB__BLUB]

42 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Methinks thou protest too much...

 

On the other hand, I managed to get my (solo) winrate in the Ryujo to 60% over 91 battles - going to stop playing her at 100 battles, to train the other T6 CVs a bit - which kinda proves your "savvyness" as you're only got solo 56% and it still being Your best (solo) CV...

Which also proves, that CVs are broken enough for someone for me, with the reflexes of a 60 years old and the willingness to learn new stuff of a conservative politician can manage a near unicorn winrate and be a pita for opposing players.

 

 

It's not all WR that matters mate. You should know. 60% WR is fine. I managed almost 70% at some point in Ryujo. But that was then.

Even a division with 8 kills can't carry. I outfarmed the other CV though, as I usually do. WR is also a matter of what teams you get. 

This was sunday...

Spoiler

 

 

....and saturday, 7 kills, not enough. Note that the last one alive on our team was the DD without smoke (he did ~150k, Nelson a even more).

Maybe DDs should Reeeeee a bit less or just need some GitGud. 

Spoiler

 

Still not bad result. 8 wins, 3 losses. 

Spoiler

 

[COPlUM]

A few months ago I said the most frustrating thing about DD/CV interaction is if you're a DD and you "upset" the CV by trapping his planes the CV can go for your again, and again, and again for 20 mins, even if he doesn't achieve anything because you're outplaying him, he's still owning you, effectively a potato CV can keep a super-unicum DD occupied for 20 mins, the only requirement for this is the potato CV has to be sufficiently "upset"

 

I suggested AA gunners on DDs level up during the game as they shoot down planes, the idea got a lot of support. I'm glad with AA being part of AR this idea made it into the game, sort of. I'm sure someone over at weegee came up with this independently and it's a coincidence, but still, this is a welcome change. Skill that adds one extra flak puff is also very nice on lower tier DDs that only have one flak puff, they get double flak, it won't do anything against good CVs, but it will help against below average ones.

 

Potato CV can also get any DD killed by simply flying in his general direction repeatedly, as the DD will get shot by everyone and shells landing is inevitable. 20% dispersion debuff after getting spotted is an interesting way to try and mitigate this. For all the crap i've given weegee on this particular topic, am excited to see changes in the right direction.

A bad player should never dominate a good player simply because they're playing a specific class. I don't mind CVs "getting me" in a DD, I do mind that a CV player basically has to bash his head on the keyboard and chew on his mouse and it should be more than enough to get me killed. Thanks for looking into that.

[1MajorKoenig]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

As far as I know fighters are largely immune to flak anyway as they are too fast and turn too sharply for the flak system to keep up. If you wanted to prevent fighter cover being denied by long range AA, making them immune to it but not medium/close range is pretty much the only solution. Personally I question whether that is necessary in the first place, even during RTS fighter cover often wasn't an option if the ship you attempted to cover entered the AA range of another ship.

 

Either no spotting at all or at best physical spotting only for the CV, minimap spotting for everyone else. I would prefer the former as then fighters would have a singular purpose and cannot be abused as spotters at all. In the rework offensive potential trumps defensive potential, if players could use their fighters to spot instead of defending their team, they will.

 

If fighters fly out from the CV hull, anywhere on the map should be fine as fighters would be limited by flight times then. If they cannot spot that makes placing them anywhere except near allies completely pointless too.

 

I would start testing at 1:30 minutes along with fighters not disengaging if aggro is pulled and the patrol time expires.

Alternatively you could make fighters have a flight time and ammo limit instead of a fixed patrol area/time and cd. This would allow you to continuously reposition your fighter patrol area until they either run out of ammo or out of "fuel", which would make them more akin to RTS fighters. For that fighter speed would have to be severely decreased though to prevent you from just always repositioning them to where the enemy squad currently is on the fly.

 

It would have to be severely enhanced if you'd like to see it return as strikes are executed much faster than back in RTS due to much higher plane speeds. Shootdown rates over time that were sufficient back then will inevitably be insufficient based on that alone.

 

I would say if aggro is pulled there should be no way for a squad to disengage beyond a successful bail. You could however make it so that fighters will engage each other immediately upon entering aggro area and "negate" each other. This would allow for limited counterplay and, since fighters are now limited by flight times and deck reserves, present a rather unfavorable trade as it sacrifices both offensive and defensive potential since you have to wait for fighters to arrive before you can strike and are incapable of defending teammates from enemy strikes in the meantime.

Fair points - I would like to write up a clean proposal once there is a nice thought through view on how it could be improved.

 

However: 

 

- maybe you are right - maybe we don’t need an immunity to long range DPS and flak, some reduction maybe while at “high” altitude 

 

- no spotting - agree

 

- I prefer fuel and ammo count - the further out you place the patrol the more of the fuel is consumed en route so it becomes a trade off 

 

- repositioning within the fuel flight time would be interesting but not necessarily crucial I would say

 

- planes aggro right away once enemy enter their patrol area / patrol area bigger than today 

 

- fighter should be “recall-able” as usual

 

 

 

Further questions: 

 

- what happens with the fighter squadron meeting planes en route to their patrol area?

- do they scan for enemies en route? Will they Aggro?

 

- if two fighter squadrons engage they are both subject to AA as they leave the “high” altitude? 
 

- disengage: I think you should at any point be able to recall fighters. They could just do what all planes do: gain altitude lose some planes on the climb until they reach the “safe” altitude? 
 

- triggers for disengage: manual (F), ammo consumed, fuel consumed 

 

- what about CAP? Are these a separate entity? Otherwise you would potentially deplete that capability if you have your fighters elsewhere? 

[arquata2019_]

4 ore fa, El2aZeR ha scritto:

s far as I know fighters are largely immune to flak anyway as they are too fast and turn too sharply for the flak system to keep up. If you wanted to prevent fighter cover being denied by long range AA, making them immune to it but not medium/close range is pretty much the only solution. Personally I question whether that is necessary in the first place, even during RTS fighter cover often wasn't an option if the ship you attempted to cover entered the AA range of another ship.

speaking of fighters, 2 questions: does survivability expert increase the hp of fighters and, at t10, how much time do fighters need to attack?

edit: aaaand may i see a recent (this update) hakuryu replay? i wanna see how you play hakuryu (i learnt how to hunt dds with dive bombers at the start of the match thx for you midway replay)

[arquata2019_]

3 ore fa, Excavatus ha scritto:

jokes aside.. 
do you think people will forget all the 2020 disasters including makarovgate If they decided to remove CVs from the game? 
will people celebrate ? 

a question dear moderator,

may you ask WattGambling (i hate changing names but its wg after all) to remove AircraftCarriers.xml? or AircraftCarriers.exe, it's a virus, believe me! or, get rid of SmokeyBalans.exe

[Deckeru_Maiku]

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

It's not all WR that matters

 

Strange.. for me it's the only thing that matters (except for Fun, of course... ifn't the game wasn't at least a bit fun anymore I'd be off immediately)

 

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Even a division with 8 kills can't carry

 

But that just only proves that KILLS don't matter...

If 8 kills aren't enough to secure a win, then probably that division hasn't played for the right goal? Like securing the important caps?

Have seen way too many battles in which bunch of players - usually divisions - started to stubbornly hunt a single enemy ships all along the map edge, while their team lost the battle in the middle of the map...

 

So, in Your mind: what DOES matter?

[UnterSeeBot]

3 hours ago, Excavatus said:

jokes aside.. 
do you think people will forget all the 2020 disasters including makarovgate If they decided to remove CVs from the game? 
will people celebrate ? 

We will rename Christmas, to Nocvmas, and we will place trb kageros under Nocvmas trees so that everyone will rejoice on opening their presents on Nocvmas Day. Father Nocvmas will drop tier 4 Arkansas Betas down the Chimney, carols will be sung

Jingle Bells

Dashing past the icebergs
On a TRB Kagero 
O'er the seas we go,
Laughing all the way
Bells on bob tail ring,
making spirits bright
What fun it is to laugh and sing
A Nocvmas song tonight

[Pikkozoikum]

On 12/20/2020 at 12:35 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

Nevertheless the old “infinite” plane fairytale can be put to rest. 

People don't know what infinite means. Having 8 of 18 planes is not infinite. ∞ is infinite :3

A better description would be, that a CV could endless attack. Though those attacks might have only 1 plane in some cases

 

On 12/20/2020 at 12:35 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

1) fighters would become a manually played squad

Generally I don't like it, if it becomes a CV vs CV interaction primarly. That makes a CV just way more powerful like you said in your contra. If you have now a good CV player and a bad CV player, they will archieve good and bad results. But give you them tools to counter other CVs, then the results shift, that the bad CV player will be worse, thus the impact of the good will be higher.

 

On 12/20/2020 at 12:35 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

2) let’s assume we try to make fighter more part of the flight deck like other planes - would that work? Eg.:

No idea how that would look like. I personally think they should change the attack/spotting mechanic like I proposed earlier with recon planes. Adding 2 "squads" of recon planes and lower the deck number of attack/bomber aircrafts.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, arquata2019 said:

speaking of fighters, 2 questions: does survivability expert increase the hp of fighters and, at t10, how much time do fighters need to attack?

edit: aaaand may i see a recent (this update) hakuryu replay? i wanna see how you play hakuryu (i learnt how to hunt dds with dive bombers at the start of the match thx for you midway replay)

The fighter HP doesnt matter, they die instantly duo AA, since a full squad has HP like one single bomber plane. Against other fighters it also doesn't matter, since they cancel them out.

I think its around 5s after calling them, they need to "fly down" and after that, they kinda attack quickly. But maybe someone knows it better

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Strange.. for me it's the only thing that matters (except for Fun, of course... ifn't the game wasn't at least a bit fun anymore I'd be off immediately)

Nah. It matters more to me to have FUN. 

Usually we have some crap going on, like T6Cv + 2x T7, and then we get T9. 
And of course you get comments in chat. And then the MOST FUN is to whack those. 

Like the one time I killed a Friesland in Ark Royal, and his teammate Izumo. Almost fell off the chair with laughter. 

(we did win that one).

 

1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

But that just only proves that KILLS don't matter...

Only if you can kill them all. Four more and we'd have made it... 

 

1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

If 8 kills aren't enough to secure a win, then probably that division hasn't played for the right goal? Like securing the important caps?

Was Epicentre, I usually even put the CV in the cap usually (outside ring hide behind mountain).

And you betcha we know how it is played... 

 

1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Have seen way too many battles in which bunch of players - usually divisions - started to stubbornly hunt a single enemy ships all along the map edge, while their team lost the battle in the middle of the map...

Nah that's now how we play. Just the team threw it and there wasn't anything we could do. 

We tried (hard) though. Maybe @El2aZeR would have carried that one but I doubt it. He'd have killed two or three more, but not four.

 

1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

So, in Your mind: what DOES matter?

 IMO if they give me -1 for kicking their butts it's all good. I enjoy the salt. 

[Camperdown]

1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

Strange.. for me it's the only thing that matters (except for Fun, of course... ifn't the game wasn't at least a bit fun anymore I'd be off immediately)

 

 

But that just only proves that KILLS don't matter...

If 8 kills aren't enough to secure a win, then probably that division hasn't played for the right goal? Like securing the important caps?

Have seen way too many battles in which bunch of players - usually divisions - started to stubbornly hunt a single enemy ships all along the map edge, while their team lost the battle in the middle of the map...

 

So, in Your mind: what DOES matter?

Fun (not phun)

Excitement = the right amount of challenge

Achievement = good games where I can perform and be proud

 

Of the stats I find WR most relevant, esp the 21 day WR as this is reflecting current performance rather than 2015-2019 legacy.

[BLUB__BLUB]

7 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

People don't know what infinite means. Having 8 of 18 planes is not infinite. ∞ is infinite :3

A better description would be, that a CV could endless attack. Though those attacks might have only 1 plane in some cases

Endless attacks will still be possible, the better CV-players will just need a bigger pause. 

Attacking with 1 plane is no use.... but you can still spot. I never run out of planes because I PACE the attacks. 

Only times when I do run out is in CB or something, when it is WORTH IT. Like, when I can kill their CV. 

And after that I can still spot with my one plane, or just ram something. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Camperdown said:

Fun (not phun)

Excitement = the right amount of challenge

Achievement = good games where I can perform and be proud

Exactly. 

 

1 minute ago, Camperdown said:

Of the stats I find WR most relevant, esp the 21 day WR as this is reflecting current performance rather than 2015-2019 legacy.

 oh how I enjoy the days when I have been grinding that Tallin or Donskoi... 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Nah. It matters more to me to have FUN

&

3 hours ago, Camperdown said:

Excitement = the right amount of challenge

Achievement = good games where I can perform and be proud

 

But winning is fun... I enjoy some exciting games... but in the end I prefer a boring win over a exciting win

 

[rnat]

5 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

But winning is fun... I enjoy some exciting games... but in the end I prefer a boring win over a exciting win

You prolly meant exiting loss ?
I agree that winning is fun, but I personally prefer an exiting match that is lost fairly to an as-good or better opponent over a boring win any time of the day.
(Not included are those matches where my team is completely and utterly pepega and we still barely loose because the enemy brought less glue)

[Deckeru_Maiku]

36 minutes ago, rnat said:

You prolly meant exiting loss ?

Yeah, you're right...

stuff like that - typos and mix-ups - happen when I write stuff since I had a stroke in September... luckily it was only a slight one and it only damaged the language in my brain, but still leads to some confusion sometimes...

[rnat]

21 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Yeah, you're right...

stuff like that - typos and mix-ups - happen when I write stuff since I had a stroke in September... luckily it was only a slight one and it only damaged the language in my brain, but still leads to some confusion sometimes...

I'm sorry to hear that, but at the same time glad that it didn't cause any major damage. Hope it will have been your last stroke.

[Captain_Lootbox]

12 hours ago, Excavatus said:

jokes aside.. 
do you think people will forget all the 2020 disasters including makarovgate If they decided to remove CVs from the game? 
will people celebrate ? 

I don't imagine so.

[I_need_an_adult]

So let's say you're at work. You do your job well and you get promoted. You do it badly, you get demoted.

 

Then the Boss brings in his son. If you have an argument with him and he takes a dislike to you, he can look at everything you're doing all the time. If you try and do your job he can stop you. If you make a mistake he can get you fired. If you don't like it - bad luck, so sorry, there's nothing you can do to him.

 

Even if you're working on a project with him it's bad. Working on a project that you've risked for, that's taken skill and luck, when the last 10% needs to be finished he'll finish it and get the credit. Smile! Your side is winning, what's your problem?

 

The take no risk, they take no skill, they get all the kills and they're impossible to fight against.

 

Well done WG, you've managed to bring a taste of reality to Warships. Just what we all needed when we're having fun.

[El2aZeR]

12 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

- what happens with the fighter squadron meeting planes en route to their patrol area?

- do they scan for enemies en route? Will they Aggro?

 

- if two fighter squadrons engage they are both subject to AA as they leave the “high” altitude? 
 

- disengage: I think you should at any point be able to recall fighters. They could just do what all planes do: gain altitude lose some planes on the climb until they reach the “safe” altitude? 
 

- triggers for disengage: manual (F), ammo consumed, fuel consumed 

 

- what about CAP? Are these a separate entity? Otherwise you would potentially deplete that capability if you have your fighters elsewhere? 

 

Good question actually. You could make it so that while moving fighters behave as they currently do with less aggro range, meaning they are fairly easy to avoid. This should prevent a CV player from simply making a fighter "patrol" manually, but will still not make fighters completely worthless in air interception while moving.

 

For the sake of consistency I would make AA always target fighters once they leave high altitude, yes.

 

Maybe, but on the other hand not being able to recall fighters would bring a bit of depth into fighter control as a wrongly positioned fighter could be exploited. Perhaps that would make for too big of a skill gap once again though.

 

CAP is necessary to prevent CV snipes, so I would keep them as they currently are. Testing an iteration without them isn't necessarily a bad idea either however.

 

11 hours ago, arquata2019 said:

speaking of fighters, 2 questions: does survivability expert increase the hp of fighters and, at t10, how much time do fighters need to attack?

 

As far as I know it actually does, but it doesn't matter all that much.

About 5 seconds.

 

11 hours ago, arquata2019 said:

aaaand may i see a recent (this update) hakuryu replay?

 

I don't have one to show you unfortunately as I haven't played Haku in quite a while.