General CV related discussions.

[Alfa_Tau]

23 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

A pity we don't get more daily reports 

ofc you should have more cause why not to exploit every single aspect of a broken mechanic...

[Alfa_Tau]

Comparison strike plane reserves RTS (balanced loadout as they were at the end of RTS) vs rework (assuming match time of 14 minutes and all regen upgrades, -1 TB and -2 DBs to account for starting delay):

 

This table says nothing. There is NO MATCH between today planes capability and the OLD RTS. 

For exmple HAKURYO was famous for it's ability to dev strike in a single pass a Tier X BB. 

Today this is IMPOSSIBLE. (Thanks God) Therefore on one hand it's true that today a CV player has more planes BUT it is also true that they deliver less damage. 

 

 

 

[Nibenay78]

12 minutes ago, Alfa_Tau said:

Comparison strike plane reserves RTS (balanced loadout as they were at the end of RTS) vs rework (assuming match time of 14 minutes and all regen upgrades, -1 TB and -2 DBs to account for starting delay):

 

This table says nothing. There is NO MATCH between today planes capability and the OLD RTS. 

For exmple HAKURYO was famous for it's ability to dev strike in a single pass a Tier X BB. 

Today this is IMPOSSIBLE. (Thanks God) Therefore on one hand it's true that today a CV player has more planes BUT it is also true that they deliver less damage. 

 

 

 

It's far preferable to get nuked and go have another game than to get ground down the next 5 minutes. edit: with certain CVs it's more like 2 minutes. My apologies!

 

How well are the dedicated AA ships holding up against CVs? oh wait I know, I even pick on them myself if I play abnormal-cell-growth-ships.

[Nibenay78]

22 minutes ago, Alfa_Tau said:

ofc you should have more cause why not to exploit every single aspect of a broken mechanic...

You mean like having the option to strike anyone, anywhere, at any moment and at any angle? Hm...

[Alfa_Tau]

1 minute ago, Nibenay78 said:

You mean like having the option to strike anyone, anywhere, at any moment and at any angle? Hm...

Are you talking about the new US BB line with 30km of range? 

 

[Alfa_Tau]

7 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

How well are the dedicated AA ships holding up against CVs?

Have you tried the Halland? the magic DD with more AA than a Cruiser? 

[krfsm]

 

22 hours ago, VIadoCro said:

13.444 HP in a single strike - 86 seconds into the game.

In a T6 ship with 34k hp total

CVs are fine 

Whoops. Sorry about that.

 

22 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

AP Rockets from the looks of it - can be juicy if flat broadside but usually the target angles slightly and mitigates almost all dmg.
Not saying AP Rockets are a great idea though 

Yep, Parseval.

 

In general the scaling of planes and AA is steep, so when the CV is top tier there often aren't many ships with scary AA. In that game it's mostly the Scharnhorst, and possibly fighters if you're loitering.

 

12 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

You don’t need to turn that much to avoid AP rockets. They only citadel flat broadside especially the T6 ones

Those were the upgraded T8 rockets. That strike is probably near the limit for citadels, but he couldn't have dodged much more, considering the BB guns pointing his way.

[Nibenay78]

1 hour ago, Alfa_Tau said:

Have you tried the Halland? the magic DD with more AA than a Cruiser? 

Both played it and against it. It's ok, but even a mediocre CV player like me can make life crap for a Halland...so...

Same experience when playing it. If the CV isn't so good, it works. But that goes for all ships.

[HystericalAccuracy]

1 hour ago, krfsm said:

he couldn't have dodged much more, considering the BB guns pointing his way.

Thank you for noticing. That is a problem that gets pointed out many times, but also gets ignored by many. Sure, I can angle to some enemies, but that opens my broadside to others.

Also, this is a prime example of a game where I wish cruisers had heals. Because a minute later i was down to 2k health without any option to recover a single HP.

[WarDax]

16 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

I will pay attention to your name on the teams. I might or might not enjoy your presence when I'm in CVs

 

Given the opportunity I will try to sink you.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 hour ago, WarDax said:

Given the opportunity I will try to sink you.

That's the spirit. 

[El2aZeR]

15 hours ago, Alfa_Tau said:

This table says nothing. There is NO MATCH between today planes capability and the OLD RTS. 

 

Reworked high tier CVs have the same or higher damage potential compared to before.

This is because while per attack reworked CVs may deal less damage, they also cycle strikes a lot faster. Not only were strike planes back in RTS at T10 about as fast as they are currently in T4, there are no launch, service, fly back and landing times anymore. This means for every strike a RTS CV flies, a reworked CV flies about 3. That is more than enough to straight up kill any ship.

 

As such the table is very much representative.

 

15 hours ago, Alfa_Tau said:

Have you tried the Halland?

 

Halland is a terrible pick against a meta CV due to how fast it loses the majority of its AA to air strikes and how big of a target it represents to both bombs and rockets. The only upside to it is its heal.

DDs that have long or fast cd smoke are much more annoying.

[Aethervoxx]

21 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

This means for every strike a RTS CV flies, a reworked CV flies about 3. That is more than enough to straight up kill any ship.

&, ofc, the RTS CVs were so 'OP' (ROFL) compared to the utter farce that masquerades as CV play now (since the rework). Am I allowed to mention, as well,  the related AA wreckage since said rework?

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, WarDax said:

Given the opportunity I will try to sink you.

Should. I dunno why they do not try more to do so.

CV is the capital ship and the largest influence. 

Somehow people seem to understand sinking DDs is crucial, but CV? Naahhhh.

 

In RTS times we'd div up Hood + Sims and go CV hunting. 

DD would cap, I'd use Hood as a battlecruiser - after that we'd go find the CV if there was an occasion.

 

2 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

That's the spirit. 

Exactly. I always give DDs that manage to sink me +1 

[Capra76]

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Reworked high tier CVs have the same or higher damage potential compared to before.

This is because while per attack reworked CVs may deal less damage, they also cycle strikes a lot faster. Not only were strike planes back in RTS at T10 about as fast as they are currently in T4, there are no launch, service, fly back and landing times anymore. This means for every strike a RTS CV flies, a reworked CV flies about 3. That is more than enough to straight up kill any ship.

 

This ^^^

 

But also the cost of mistakes was much higher for the CV player under RTS, mess up your drop and that's a significant amount of your game expended for no return, mess up now and it's "have another go", and all that ignores meaningful plane losses and enemy fighter planes.

[1MajorKoenig]

On 12/16/2020 at 10:49 AM, El2aZeR said:

Comparison strike plane reserves RTS (balanced loadout as they were at the end of RTS) vs rework (assuming match time of 14 minutes and all regen upgrades, -1 TB and -2 DBs to account for starting delay):

 

Hosho - 16 (16 TBs) vs 75 (29 RF / 23 DBs / 23 TBs)
Ryujo - 38 (19 DBs / 19 TBs) vs 72 (27 RF / 22 DBs / 23 TBs)
Shokaku - 48 (24 DBs / 24 TBs) vs 84 (30 RF / 26 DBs / 28 TBs)
Hakuryu - 70 (30 DBs / 40 TBs) vs 94 (27 RF / 30 DBs / 37 TBs)

Ah you Little Joker  - a couple of poor souls even fell for your little ruse here 

 

I use a similar measure (delay for regeneration 30/60/90 Secs for the three squadrons) and 15min match time average but the results are not vastly different.

Eg. I have (RF/TB/DB):

- Ryujo (27/24/24)

- Shukaku (27/26/24)

- Hakuryu (24/34/28)

 

However you deliberately make two booboos - hopefully not to mislead anyone here :

 

1) you are neglecting the RTS fighters which added to the complement. If you compare apples to apples rather than apples to oranges you get for

Hakuryu - Rework 34/28 vs RTS 30/37 (TB/DB)

Shokaku - Rework 26/24 vs RTS 24/24 (TB/DB)

 

Almost identical unless you look at T4 and we know T4 CVs are a problem in almost any area.

 

2) you are neglecting the fact that after rework the AI loses your planes casually and inevitably while you are attacking with one wing. These losses are not under your own control and need to be compensated for somehow 

 

So no - for any CV other than the low tier ones and one with very small flight deck the difference are not significant and most certainly not “infinite” or “unlimited”

[Bear__Necessities]

6 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

certainly not “infinite” or “unlimited”

Can rework CV's run of of planes permanently. 

 

No.

 

So....

[El2aZeR]

38 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

1) you are neglecting the RTS fighters which added to the complement. If you compare apples to apples rather than apples to oranges

 

This is ofc utterly wrong. The utility of fighters against surface ships has not changed between rework and RTS, meaning if you want fighters to count you need to add them in the rework as well. I did the rework a massive favor by leaving them out, otherwise the rework would massively outpace RTS by several dozen planes.

 

38 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

2) you are neglecting the fact that after rework the AI loses your planes casually and inevitably while you are attacking with one wing. These losses are not under your own control and need to be compensated for somehow

 

RTS losses were also not under your control with AA generally being much stronger than it is currently. I fail to see the relevance.

 

Your attempts to subvert the truth are pathetic as always.

[1MajorKoenig]

Just now, El2aZeR said:

This is ofc utterly wrong.

No they have been a player controlled asset - an active and important part of your flight deck - today they are not. Either count in the fighters or leave them out. But not apples and oranges pls

 

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

RTS losses were also not under your control with AA generally being much stronger than it is currently. I fail to see the relevance.

Simple: with the rework you control only a part of the wing when attacking. The rest just trails your attack wing and gets killed.

 

In RTS times you had full control of that 

 

To make it comparable the rest of the squadron would need to keep out of AA range while attacking. 

[El2aZeR]

8 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

No they have been a player controlled asset - an active and important part of your flight deck - today they are not.

 

They are though? They are an important utility to keep up spotting when you cycle strikes - just like in RTS. You also have full control over where you can put them.

 

8 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Simple: with the rework you control only a part of the wing when attacking. The rest just trails your attack wing and gets killed.

 

In RTS times you had full control of that

 

Both of which curtails your alpha and reserves, in RTS it just did it straight up while in the rework it denies you subsequent attacks.

I still fail to see the relevance.

[WarDax]

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Should. I dunno why they do not try more to do so.

CV is the capital ship and the largest influence. 

Somehow people seem to understand sinking DDs is crucial, but CV? Naahhhh.

So we need to sink more CV's. Check. On it. Been at it for weeks and maybe months.

[1MajorKoenig]

47 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

They are though? They are an important utility to keep up spotting when you cycle strikes - just like in RTS. You also have full control over where you can put them.

Eventhough rework fighters are not part of your deck — add them if you want. Doesn’t change the overall picture 

 

48 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Both of which curtails your alpha and reserves, in RTS it just did it straight up while in the rework it denies you subsequent attacks.

I still fail to see the relevance.

No the difference is in RTS you can keep reserves out of AA and only put the attack wings at risk. That is impossible in the rework. And you receive additional casualties which you have no control over 

 

And I see you try to derail. Point is: numbers of planes isn’t significantly different or „infinite“. Yes some small deck CVs benefit from this model but overall it’s broadly comparable within a typical match duration. 

[Estaca_de_Bares]

39 minutes ago, WarDax said:

Huge penalties I guess, but don't know, anyone know what the penalty is for sinking a team cv? Aside from someone getting angry at you?

Probably 2 players going pink at the bare minimum (assuming 50% HP is the damage threshold, but it's lower than that IIRC) if nobody else from the team does it, and that's assuming neither of the now pinkies sinks from reflected damage. If all the team... ahem, "collaborates", then only one pink (the one that gets the kill). I'll leave aside the fact that it would be a pretty legitimate ticket to support.

 

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Should. I dunno why they do not try more to do so.

CV is the capital ship and the largest influence. 

Somehow people seem to understand sinking DDs is crucial, but CV? Naahhhh.

Some people understand it for DDs, and it's fortunate when playing them that the number isn't higher. As for CVs, I guess the average player only sees them as some far-away thing that keeps ruining your gameplay with no way to annul it. I, OTOH, understood from the very beginning their importance. In RTS times before the strafing-out, I made myself really proficient in counterpart sniping, while with the introduction of that mechanic I switched the focus instead to aerial combat and interception (and also since it was around that time that I finally advanced past Hiryu, snipings became less of a thing due to the DefAA at higher tiers). Even now, in spite of the massive nerf to AA, I run an AA build on Minotaur which is certainly an homage to their impact, and when playing Musashi or Yamato the first thing I type in chat when there are carriers is "spotter equipped, just saying...".

 

Salute.

[El2aZeR]

51 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Eventhough rework fighters are not part of your deck — add them if you want. Doesn’t change the overall picture

 

Kekw.

Fine, I'll do it later.

 

52 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

No the difference is in RTS you can keep reserves out of AA and only put the attack wings at risk. That is impossible in the rework. And you receive additional casualties which you have no control over

 

And in the rework the attack wing isn't at risk unless all reserves are shot down. The effect is still largely the same. I still fail to see the relevance.

 

While plane reserves may not be technically infinite, they are practically due to having massive reserves and the general weakness of AA.

[BLUB__BLUB]

25 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

and the general weakness of AA.

AA isn't "weak", it is controlled by the CV player... which is much worse. 

You know just about exactly where the next flak clouds are gonna pop. Because you "steer" them... 

The only way to NOT miss them is if your squad is too wide, or too slow/no boost available.