General CV related discussions.

[TheBradford]

7 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

 

Right, so calling someone naive is insulting? Wow, one could call you a snowflake, but hey, I at the very least won't.

 

And about losing the argumentation... you do realize there is literally almost a dozen experienced, well informed players (me included) on this thread arguing against your points? Can you again explain to me where exactly, and by what metric, are you winning?

- WG fan boy is one that's pretty insulting

 

Yeah they are doesnt mean my opinion is been changed though im reading them from your points of view but still not convinced that CV should be removed from the game along with submarines ect 

 

Your points are not winning me over not everyone else's.

 

 

 

[GarrusBrutus]

3 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

If you hate CVs, Submarines, WG attitude towards player base, their events and everything else you have mentioned plus its going in a direction you dont like?

 

Why are you still playing and debating with me? surely if you thought it was this bad and not getting any better you would just give up and move onto something else by now? ;)

Because thanks to players like yourself , the game diverted from its path to the one its currently on: monetization and pay2progress, which result in a rapidly declining game- and player quality... Player numbers are steady at the moment. But will this game be fun for another 5 years? 

 

X for doubt. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, MacFergus said:

I disagree with all due respect T6 CVs are not op at all your 54% solo is around the same as my T6 Jap CV and i average around 52k damage because I focus on DDs my average damage is very good according to the stats but 52k is nothing great , I'm sure the great CV players on here could do a lot more but that's because they are good players not that the class is op a player like Flamu would do well in any ship that does not make the ship op.

yes you can do much more as you'll know, except there is such a thing as ROFLSTOMP-5-minutes (when you do 10k... LOL). 

In any "normal" game (say 15 min and reasonable "balance") I'll do about 100K but well, when do we get normal games nowadays. 

Usually in more than half of games either the reds die like flies, or my team does. 

 

Yes the great ones can do much much more. Is it OP, well I dunno, what I do know is they are BROKEN. OP ships are OP for everyone, not just unicums.

But BROKEN ships can be ABUSED by unicums. I dunno what you'd call OP. For me, OP means it does huge damage without any effort and anyone can do it. 

Like, having a RPG in GTA5. Anything goes BOOM don't even have to hit it. That is what I call OP. CVs are sort of like that but not completely.

However if you have a little bit of skill, they are very very abuseable. And that is what I'd call BROKEN.

 

1 hour ago, MacFergus said:

We have very good CV players on this thread but they are a minority the vast majority of us plebs do less than 52k in the Ryujo as the stats indicate meaning that from a damage prospective the CVs at tier 6 are bang on for average damage like other ships when played by the majority of people. 

I have 59% solo in Ryujo, and in div >60... 55K average for me but I'm not really trying hard. So I am as potato as they come, really. 

The thing keeping average damage down is those ROFLSTOMPS. Unicums manage to turn some of them, I can't do it.

I know a lot about the stuff but hey I am old and slow, even if I know HOW to do it doesn't mean that I can... 

 

[TheBradford]

4 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

 

Is this thread perhaps labelled ''TheBradford's rightly and just opinons on the CVs''?

Yes or no?

If yes, yeah, I'll take my leave, this is your turf.

If not, what makes you think you can imply what should I do or to whom should I reply?

 

Again, your naivety shows when you cannot understand that I, and people like me, deeply care about the game, absolutely love the basic mechanics and want to see it take a turn for the better.

No its not 

 

But i also care about this game and love the mechanics and want to see it improve

 

I just disagree on the path of the game. I believe you see it as it should stick to BB,dds and cruisers whereas i see it as it should develop and move into Subs, CVs, new games modes and the like and that the Average players feedback is just as important as a great players feedback.

 

So least we agree on that we want the game to thrive just we have different ideas on the way it should.

[AndyHill]

1 hour ago, MacFergus said:

They seem op at certain Tiers.

I checked T6 and carriers have the highest K/D -ratio by far as well as massive lead in spotting. They are near the top in damage and kills as well as godlike in cap defense, pretty similar to T10. This is especially remarkable, since T6 top lists seem to be absolutely dominated by premium ships of all sorts, probably because of the experienced players playing them.

1 hour ago, TheBradford said:

So say a German CV is trying to kill a Holland?  A Holland can shred it planes and can easily make it difficult for trop drops to be successful, the best strategy for the German CV is to rely on his team to do the damage to Holland by spotting it. When i play CV and theres a minotaur protecting some ships such as a yamato and a thunder for example, im not going to fly into that lol. I ask my time to deal with the minotaur so i can get to the bbs. thats just a few examples. 

How is that a CV not needing a team?

The main question is why do I need to kill the Halland or Minotaur? For me to consider one a valuable target they are probably close to the frontlines, in which case my teammates will probably have shots at them while I go for them anyway. Halland can be damaged by German rockets even if they're not the most effective thing against DDs and it's clumsy enough to eat torps. Especially if it's in range of friendlies (=doing something useful and thus a valuable target), the torps will screw him over pretty badly regardless. I don't know about you, but I will not hesitate to attack Hallands and Minotaurs if the situation requires it and chances are I will hurt them badly with not too bad plane losses. Even if I lose some planes, they lose hitpoints and those are far more valuable and they never get the chance to shoot back. In the worst case everyone now knows where they are and whatever plans they had were foiled just because I flew a few expendable planes their way.

 

If you compare that to any other means of spotting and fighting a Halland, the contrast is pretty stark. To spot him outright, you have to be within 6km of him - and then you're within 6km of a Halland and whatever friends he might have nearby. Then it's the question of whether you and your friends can hurt him and his friends more than they hurt you and yours, that's called playing the game. Everyone's skills in positioning and shooting are in play and the stakes are your hitpoints and eventually ships. Not just how much damage one side can do to the other while risking an expendable resource. Radars can of course spot him from further away, but very few ships can radar him further away than they get spotted unless they can use terrain to their advantage. And this is basically what's supposed to be the rock to the Halland's scissors.

1 hour ago, TheBradford said:

Yeah they can attack anyone anywhere however you have to take into consideration flight time, how many enemy ships will i be flying past, will my hp be enough for when i get there.

Any limitations planes have in attacking are absolutely nothing compared to what ships have to work with.

1 hour ago, TheBradford said:

Yeah spotting abilities is strong however it doesnt remove interesting gameplay. Ive easily sneaked up on CVs especially when there's 4 dds in a game and one 1cv per side and just torped CV (yes i know your comment refers back to "wells hes an incompetent cv player - like most cv players nowadays).

Carriers are banned in tournaments and the best clan wars teams revolted because their inclusion in clan battles removed interesting gameplay so yes, that does in fact happen.

 

As for sneaking up on CVs it's true he was likely bad, but I'll just stick with facts instead. Just by judging the top 10 survival rates of T10 ships, it's pretty clear that your scenario is a rare oddity. Guess which of these are the carriers:

[TheBradford]

4 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Because thanks to players like yourself , the game diverted from its path to the one its currently on: monetization and pay2progress, which result in a rapidly declining game- and player quality... Player numbers are steady at the moment. But will this game be fun for another 5 years? 

 

X for doubt. 

Well hasn't it always been a pay to grind instead of pay to win? that's a good thing?

 

None of us know that, a new game could come along, new technology could pop up so predicating into the future no one knows

[st_dasa]

12 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

- WG fan boy is one that's pretty insulting

 

Yeah they are doesnt mean my opinion is been changed though im reading them from your points of view but still not convinced that CV should be removed from the game along with submarines ect 

 

Your points are not winning me over not everyone else's.

 

 

 

 

Gotcha. You again fail to understand that you are just a noname WG representation that we use as a substrate to spew our discontent with the current state of the game.

 

Frankly, I do not care if my argumentation wins you over or not, what matters is the fact you managed to include many unicums and good players to argue against you, thereby against WG, adding our voices in unity against all of the bad mechanics implemented. So, thank you for that at the very least.

 

And kiddo, it is you who gives plenty of instances for my ''insulting'' argumentation. There is actually a plethora of insults that comes to mind just by reading your last three or so replies, but hey, let's keep it civilized.

[TheBradford]

2 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

 

Gotcha. You again fail to understand that you are just a noname WG representation that we use to spew our discontent with the game.

 

Frankly, I do not care if my argumentation wins you over or not, what matters that you managed to include many unicums and good players arguing against you, thereby against WG, adding our voices in unity against all of the bad mechanics implemented. So, thank you far that at the very least.

 

And kiddo, it is you who gives plenty of instances for my ''insulting'' argumentation. There is actually a plethora of insults that comes to mind just by reading your last three or so replies, but hey, let's keep it civilized.

We could just say none of our points matter as its not our decision to make regardless, we have our points of view, we give our feedback to WG, they give their response. Some people love it and some people don't. 

 

You will never please everyone. 

 

They can argue against me, i enjoy debate. They say some points and i agree with them and they say some points i don't. 

 

Yes use me to spew your discontent but overall the game is heading in a direction i like and im debating with you why you don't like it and what's the problem. So you can be demeaning and patronising to me, i just thought we was having a good debate.

 

In the end we are all just nobodies arguing on the internet ;)

[AndyHill]

54 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

But people who can counter CVs are you saying they are not smart? they sound smarter than someone who hasn't figured it out yet?

This 230+ page discussion is part two in the series. So far we've had several people come in and state that they've mastered the magical counterplay to carriers, yet nobody ever actually has, so you will probably excuse us for not being overly impressed by that statement. I'm still willing to listen if you're willing to reveal how you counterplay them - after all, who knows if we've finally found someone who can.

 

My bingo sheet:

- Stay away from frontlines

- Hug friendly ships

- Waste every captain skill point, upgrade and consumable on AA

- Show broadside to 11 ships to dodge planes

- Make him lose a few planes when he kills you

- Make him waste time hunting you before he kills you

[TheBradford]

5 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

This 230+ page discussion is part two in the series. So far we've had several people come in and state that they've mastered the magical counterplay to carriers, yet nobody ever actually has, so you will probably excuse us for not being overly impressed by that statement. I'm still willing to listen if you're willing to reveal how you counterplay them - after all, who knows if we've finally found someone who can.

 

I think my question would be what is your idea of an counter play?

As we more than likely have different ideas on what is a good counter play?

For example is your idea a direct hit on the enemy CV or limiting his combat effectiveness ?

Also at what tier? Are all ship same tier? I think the parameters can be different for each tier of CV and in what scenario?

 

EDIT - as i feel i can comfortably counter CV at each tier - however i would say its much better at T6/8 CVs then 4 and 10

[159Hunter]

10 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

I think my question would be what is your idea of an counter play?

As we more than likely have different ideas on what is a good counter play?

For example is your idea a direct hit on the enemy CV or limiting his combat effectiveness ?

Also at what tier? Are all ship same tier? I think the parameters can be different for each tier of CV and in what scenario?

 

EDIT - as i feel i can comfortably counter CV at each tier - however i would say its much better at T6/8 CVs then 4 and 10

By all means, explain us HOW you counter a CV.

[AndyHill]

1 minute ago, TheBradford said:

I think my question would be what is your idea of an counter play?

 

A common definition of counterplay would be for example (Collins dictionary)

1. a positive or aggressive action by the defending side, esp in chess. verb (intransitive) 2. to make an opposing or positive action from a position of defence.

 

For example in WoWS a DD can counterplay a radar cruiser (which is supposed to be a bad matchup for the DD) for example by torping them, spotting them for their team or, depending a lot on the ships and situation in question, outright shooting them with their guns. Even in the worst case you can at least shoot back to hurt the cruiser.

[TheBradford]

8 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

By all means, explain us HOW you counter a CV.

Oki dokey

- First i would say its always a little difficult to accurately argue as we have to consider player skill, the map, team match up, ect

- But for arguments sake im going to there's 1cv, 4dd, 5bbs, 2 cruisers say one radar one regular.

- Im in a Cossack (since its dds arch enemy is the cv) and its a shokaku on the enemy team. 

- taking into consideration all players have similar level of skill based on damage, impact ect (the average stats)

 

i usually start by assessing the enemy CV player, how he plays ect. I wouldn't say charge the cap to get points and start spotting as now i have a CV, i feel the spotting responsibility of a dd is lifted and placed more on the CVs.

So at the beginning of the match, i play a lot more defensive, stick close to my allied ships (ahead but in there AA range)

 

If the CV isnt focusing my side then i would play normally until he shows up.

 

If say he was focusing my side then i would rely a lot more on my smoke screens, having my AA turned off to minimise my risk of detection and during those windows where he fly's off/flying back i use them to do what dds do. If i don't have a smoke ready usually i thought ahead im near islands or close to allied ships. My counter play in dds is basically making it too hard for him to find me and constantly been aware of surroundings. When a CV does spot me and has it out for me, i usually head for the nearest group of allied ships and make it too difficult for him to try. 

I do play very differently with a CV in game and of course its more of a challenge but i wouldnt say it affects my enjoyment of the game.

 

I kind off see it as if a dd charges into the b cap in the first minute with no support with CV in play, it like a cruiser showing its broadside to a bb.

 

[Bear__Necessities]

7 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

Oki dokey

- First i would say its always a little difficult to accurately argue as we have to consider player skill, the map, team match up, ect

- But for arguments sake im going to there's 1cv, 4dd, 5bbs, 2 cruisers say one radar one regular.

- Im in a Cossack (since its dds arch enemy is the cv) and its a shokaku on the enemy team. 

- taking into consideration all players have similar level of skill based on damage, impact ect (the average stats)

 

i usually start by assessing the enemy CV player, how he plays ect. I wouldn't say charge the cap to get points and start spotting as now i have a CV, i feel the spotting responsibility of a dd is lifted and placed more on the CVs.

So at the beginning of the match, i play a lot more defensive, stick close to my allied ships (ahead but in there AA range)

 

If the CV isnt focusing my side then i would play normally until he shows up.

 

If say he was focusing my side then i would rely a lot more on my smoke screens, having my AA turned off to minimise my risk of detection and during those windows where he fly's off/flying back i use them to do what dds do. If i don't have a smoke ready usually i thought ahead im near islands or close to allied ships. My counter play in dds is basically making it too hard for him to find me and constantly been aware of surroundings. When a CV does spot me and has it out for me, i usually head for the nearest group of allied ships and make it too difficult for him to try. 

I do play very differently with a CV in game and of course its more of a challenge but i wouldnt say it affects my enjoyment of the game.

 

I kind off see it as if a dd charges into the b cap in the first minute with no support with CV in play, it like a cruiser showing its broadside to a bb.

 

So, you've already given away map control...

 

Right...

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, TheBradford said:

When i got within that detection range his planes were already over at C, so as i was moving within that detection his planes were already at C, so he wouldn't have got that warning. Basically right place at right time.

 

In the time you approached he must have cycled several strikes and as such gotten advance warning.

The only way this isn't possible is if he was just flying around being useless, but then that just proves my point.

 

1 hour ago, TheBradford said:

I don't  know, ive seen that FDR reck everything it come into contact with. AA is useless against it.

 

Which doesn't preclude the information I just gave you.

[AndyHill]

Yep been there seen that nothing new, all of those things are basically admitting defeat without even making the carrier work for it.

[MacFergus]

44 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

This 230+ page discussion is part two in the series. So far we've had several people come in and state that they've mastered the magical counterplay to carriers, yet nobody ever actually has, so you will probably excuse us for not being overly impressed by that statement. I'm still willing to listen if you're willing to reveal how you counterplay them - after all, who knows if we've finally found someone who can.

 

My bingo sheet:

- Stay away from frontlines

- Hug friendly ships

- Waste every captain skill point, upgrade and consumable on AA

- Show broadside to 11 ships to dodge planes

- Make him lose a few planes when he kills you

- Make him waste time hunting you before he kills you

No offence Andy but isn't that what the old RTS CVs did anyway except the system does seem fairer now than then at least a potato in a CV can do something for his team unlike the old system where one CV player would wipe the floor with another thus crapping all over the opposing team for the loss of their carrier.

 

The point I'm attempting to make is the new system is more player friendly good or bad , The real issue seems to be the spotting of ships by CVs where as before you relied on your teammates to spot for you.

 

As far as damage is concerned that seems to be where the skill gap lies or how you use your CV , If you want to win games but are not bothered about your damage output then go hunt DDs but i can tell you very few Cvs i see do that.

 

In my opinion of course.  

[AndyHill]

1 minute ago, MacFergus said:

No offence Andy but isn't that what the old RTS CVs did anyway except the system does seem fairer now than then at least a potato in a CV can do something for his team unlike the old system where one CV player would wipe the floor with another thus crapping all over the opposing team for the loss of their carrier.

None taken. I don't care much about the differences between the old system and the new one, both were/are utterly horrific.

[st_dasa]

14 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

Oki dokey

- First i would say its always a little difficult to accurately argue as we have to consider player skill, the map, team match up, ect

- But for arguments sake im going to there's 1cv, 4dd, 5bbs, 2 cruisers say one radar one regular.

- Im in a Cossack (since its dds arch enemy is the cv) and its a shokaku on the enemy team. 

- taking into consideration all players have similar level of skill based on damage, impact ect (the average stats)

 

i usually start by assessing the enemy CV player, how he plays ect. I wouldn't say charge the cap to get points and start spotting as now i have a CV, i feel the spotting responsibility of a dd is lifted and placed more on the CVs.

So at the beginning of the match, i play a lot more defensive, stick close to my allied ships (ahead but in there AA range)

 

If the CV isnt focusing my side then i would play normally until he shows up.

 

If say he was focusing my side then i would rely a lot more on my smoke screens, having my AA turned off to minimise my risk of detection and during those windows where he fly's off/flying back i use them to do what dds do. If i don't have a smoke ready usually i thought ahead im near islands or close to allied ships. My counter play in dds is basically making it too hard for him to find me and constantly been aware of surroundings. When a CV does spot me and has it out for me, i usually head for the nearest group of allied ships and make it too difficult for him to try. 

I do play very differently with a CV in game and of course its more of a challenge but i wouldnt say it affects my enjoyment of the game.

 

I kind off see it as if a dd charges into the b cap in the first minute with no support with CV in play, it like a cruiser showing its broadside to a bb.

 

 

Besides not hearing anything new, give me some examples how would you act in your main or secondary class, namely BBs and CAs. You have around 100 battles in DDs.

 

 

[UnderDuress]

12 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

The point I'm attempting to make is the new system is more player friendly good or bad 

More CV friendly maybe, but where before there was probably 12 miserable players as one CV dumped on the other one there are now 22. Since even a potato CV can now run amok for the duration of the game.

[MacFergus]

For what its worth my counter would be use the mini map and get your head out of the zoom pressing WASD does help.

 

Never go full retard on DD if you see them planes coming dodge and if your in a cap smoke up hopefully he will fly away and find easier fish to fry.

 

On a CA im not sure i think your screwed but generally speaking you have better AA so again WASD and hope your AA does the rest.

 

On BB you might have to take it on the chin , Better to take a couple of Torps than turn your ship to broadside.

 

Most important is using the mini map and stop being in zoom all the time just my few cents worth.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, UnderDuress said:

More CV friendly maybe, but where before there was probably 12 miserable players as one CV dumped on the on there one there are now 22. Since even a potato CV can now run amok for the duration of the game.

True, in the RTS there was at least one team happy.  

[UnderDuress]

8 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

On a CA im not sure i think your screwed but generally speaking you have better AA so again WASD and hope your AA does the rest.

I actually agree that cruiser have it worst in the current CV environment. They don’t have the DDs concealment, nor the BBs tankiness so they get shat on CVs both by direct damage and spotting. And AA isn’t going to do anything unless the planes are nice enough to eat flak.

 

But as ever the “counters” are basically run away anytime a plane comes you way and/or hope the CV player is terrible. Which not what PvP balancing should be.

 

 

[Ashardalon_Dragnipur]

1 hour ago, TheBradford said:

Well hasn't it always been a pay to grind instead of pay to win? that's a good thing?

 

None of us know that, a new game could come along, new technology could pop up so predicating into the future no one knows

so your basically saying you will lose interest and move on to the next thing that will bore you in a week

meanwhile the people that used to have a good game they could have been playing for decades should lose their enjoyment so you can stay for a week extra

maybe not all games are for people with a 5 minute attentionspan 

[TheBradford]

12 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

 

Besides not hearing anything new, give me some examples how would you act in your main or secondary class, namely BBs and CAs. You have around 100 battles in DDs.

I know this is a very anti CV threat so i know it would be difficult . also as i said its hard to explain as there are so many variables that could happen but this has been the tactic ive been using and its been pretty successful 

 

BBs i find easier, i play a lot in my Bismarck (favourite ship full sec spec), i don't have to as defensive. Again same scenario, usually i would do the opposite, i would be more in the open water. As Bismarck is pretty manoeuvrable and can dodge dive bombs and torps is a lot easier. The argument that torp bombs give you broadside to other ships. If i know there's some strong bbs in front of me i would just take the torp on the chin. I find the AA on the Bismarck pretty strong so CV never really worried about. 

 

Cruisers say Atago, I find it even easier, its pretty good at fending off planes and its got a good rudder shift time to avoid torps and bombs. The defensive AA consumable is pretty effective. I think people have the assumption it should wipe out a squadron instantly which sometimes it does depending on which AA cruiser its attached to. Atago it doesn't but  accompanied with the fighter and decent AA again CV try it the once realise 'yeah not an easy target' and go look for easier target.