General CV related discussions.

[GarrusBrutus]

1 minute ago, TheBradford said:

I dont even see Smolensk's anymore, they were the rage for a month and then nothing.

That is not the point.

The point is that according to stats something might be balanced because noobs do close to zero damage and pros do close to 250k dmg.

In other words: Stats can be misleading when judging the performance of ships.

[TheBradford]

7 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

 

Again your focusing on tier 10 this is not the case below that , I don't doubt their are some very good CVs players some in this thread but that does not mean the class as a whole is op.

 

Tier 4 CVs and tier 10 CVs seem to raise the most complaints and therefore need looking at.

 

Quite honestly i see average to mediocre CV players all the time below tier 8 maybe the problem is at the higher tier.

 

The unicorn players who comment on this thread are the exception to the rule that is not the case for the vast majority imo.

Yes im trying to say this but he said it better lol

[El2aZeR]

29 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

So are you saying WG should only listen to great player feedback and ignore the feedback from the rest of us?

 

When it comes to balancing, certainly.

Because that is precisely how the best PvP games are balanced. And it is objectively the only way a game can be truly balanced.

[TheBradford]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

When it comes to balancing, certainly.

Because that is precisely how the best PvP games are balanced. And it is objectively the only way a game can be truly balanced.

Then ignoring the vast majority of player base without acknowledging their feedback is pretty demeaning.

it kind of like saying only educated people should vote, the rest of population without a collage degree shouldn't vote in the election.

 

Ive always seen WOW as a team based game, i see CV adding to that team work once people stop hating on them for no reason. CVs work best when they have an team player in them. Unfourtnelty i dont see many team players in CV nowadays which is where the 'real hate' comes from. I dont think its down to CVs been OP or bad for the game but purely from those CV players who dont care and give every other CV player a bad name.

 

[GarrusBrutus]

1 minute ago, TheBradford said:

it kind of like saying only educated people should vote, the rest of population without a collage degree shouldn't vote in the election.

No, that is totally different. With voting uneducated people vote for someone educated to represent them in the decision making process.

 

With regards to game balance, most players cant see the whole picture because they lack the knowledge and/or experience. Top players have both, hence they can give better balancing feedback than most other players.

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, TheBradford said:

Then ignoring the vast majority of player base without acknowledging their feedback is pretty demeaning.

it kind of like saying only educated people should vote, the rest of population without a collage degree shouldn't vote in the election.

 

On the contrary this is beyond fair.

It's like saying everyone should be able to become a certified doctor despite having no qualifications for it. This is not an election, this is a very specific field where you're either knowledgeable about it or your opinion can be disregarded as it is of no intellectual worth.

 

4 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

CVs work best when they have an team player in them.

 

This is utterly wrong. The best CV players completely disregard their team beyond spotting and damage because that is how a CV is played to its maximum potential. It is a griefing class that brings no value to the team.

[DFens_666]

24 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

- But i dont agree CVs should be removed from game or nerfed into oblivion.

 

Remove the spotting for everyone would be a good start.

You said, CVs have ~roughly same damage as BBs, and that would be fine according to you. Why is that tho? BBs cant engage every target on their own, as you also said, a BB has a hard time dealing with a DD. Why is that? Naturally, the BB cant spot the DD, unless the DD makes a mistake.

How does this translate to CVs? They dont have targets,which they cant engage. Even if they are incapable of attacking a DD, they can spot the DD for their team. They can spot every ship for their team, many of those without any risk when the air concealment is worse than their AA range, or when the ship is shooting. So CVs can attack anything, and spot anything. BBs can attack anything IF it is spotted by one of their teammates. Spotting on their own works at best against other BBs or Cruisers, if they choose to fight the BB (or in extreme situations where the best concealed BB outpost certain cruisers).

So i ask, why should CVs have equal damage as BBs have? They have major advantages over BBs, yet they are allowed to deal the same damage, having more game influence. The bigger influence can be compared with DDs. DDs also have certain advantages over other classes, but they are also the worst damage dealers.

Shouldnt CVs have the same damage as DDs to balance it out? And thats why, spotting needs to go. It balances the class around being amongst the best damage dealers. It basicly has 0 impact on CV gameplay, yet a tremendous amount for surface ships.

But WG ofc ignores that, for no apparent reason.

 

[Excavatus]

10 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

Then ignoring the vast majority of player base without acknowledging their feedback is pretty demeaning.

it kind of like saying only educated people should vote, the rest of population without a collage degree shouldn't vote in the election.

your analogy is wrong. 

Lets think about this, 

 

Lets say government will make a new law about "drone usage" 

It is a field for experts. They do not ask every drone owners' opinion, 

they do not decide themselves, 

they ask the opinion of air defense experts, drone producers, certified pilots, etc etc. 

the opinion of people who have vast experience and technical knowledge about the subject. 

Then they make the law, 

and every drone owner must abide the law after that point, without being asked their opinion. 

[arquata2019_]

4 minuti fa, DFens_666 ha scritto:

 

Remove the spotting for everyone would be a good start.

You said, CVs have ~roughly same damage as BBs, and that would be fine according to you. Why is that tho? BBs cant engage every target on their own, as you also said, a BB has a hard time dealing with a DD. Why is that? Naturally, the BB cant spot the DD, unless the DD makes a mistake.

How does this translate to CVs? They dont have targets,which they cant engage. Even if they are incapable of attacking a DD, they can spot the DD for their team. They can spot every ship for their team, many of those without any risk when the air concealment is worse than their AA range, or when the ship is shooting. So CVs can attack anything, and spot anything. BBs can attack anything IF it is spotted by one of their teammates. Spotting on their own works at best against other BBs or Cruisers, if they choose to fight the BB (or in extreme situations where the best concealed BB outpost certain cruisers).

So i ask, why should CVs have equal damage as BBs have? They have major advantages over BBs, yet they are allowed to deal the same damage, having more game influence. The bigger influence can be compared with DDs. DDs also have certain advantages over other classes, but they are also the worst damage dealers.

Shouldnt CVs have the same damage as DDs to balance it out? And thats why, spotting needs to go. It balances the class around being amongst the best damage dealers. It basicly has 0 impact on CV gameplay, yet a tremendous amount for surface ships.

But WG ofc ignores that, for no apparent reason.

 

when you said bbs have to rely on teammates to spot so they can shoot, what if cvs have to rely on someone else that has to spot in order to attack? (THIS ABSOLUTELY MAKES NO SENSE WHAT I SAID)

when i write in caps i highlight it in my way btw, maybe cvs need interceptors or something else to spot so planes can take off? (this is a pretty dumb idea, what i writed the first line!)

[Prospect_b]

2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

You said, CVs have ~roughly same damage as BBs, and that would be fine according to you.

The average damage being the same as bbs would be fine imho, cause I don't think the dmg is the problem.

 

As long as rockets go away, same with AP bombs and AP rockets, and cruisers (or at least most of them) become a no go zone again.

Simply said, make them a bb farming thing, instead of a class that can be so decisive by taking out the most important ships of the enemy team, including so called "AA ships".

 

It's been WGs wish to dumb this game down by having less "surprises" for the mentally less abled, and making all "stealthy" ships less stealthy. Started with RPF, and that REEEwork cvs are so excellent at killing & spotting DDs, fits in that vision too, not to mention spotting your entire team's intended position after about 1 minute.

It's that dumbing down, that maybe more than being singled out by a cv in some games, that most upsets skilled players about them. And you see it in the game for a while now, where the "meta" is everyone snipes at each other from 25 km, preferably with HE. Which in a certain way makes sense even, cause why would you try to make a play (with ANY of the three surface classes), when any competent CV will make that impossible and just get you killed for even trying.

[DFens_666]

9 minutes ago, arquata2019 said:

when you said bbs have to rely on teammates to spot so they can shoot, what if cvs have to rely on someone else that has to spot in order to attack? (THIS ABSOLUTELY MAKES NO SENSE WHAT I SAID)

when i write in caps i highlight it in my way btw, maybe cvs need interceptors or something else to spot so planes can take off? (this is a pretty dumb idea, what i writed the first line!)

 

If CVs couldnt spot for themselves, you would probably need to buff the damage output... not something i would like to see

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, MacFergus said:

 

I think that's a one off i have never seen a CV get 7 kills ,

 well... ehh... here's a 7-kill game, and you probably think only Flamu goes through middle on Two Brothers map... 

Check my stats I'm no unicum by far. OK part of it is that I like fail-divving my T6 CVs to T9 and do weird stuff.

Then again... quite sure I could get to unicum but why? This is a game. Has to be fun, too.

 

Spoiler

 

[MacFergus]

24 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

your analogy is wrong. 

Lets think about this, 

 

Lets say government will make a new law about "drone usage" 

It is a field for experts. They do not ask every drone owners' opinion, 

they do not decide themselves, 

they ask the opinion of air defense experts, drone producers, certified pilots, etc etc. 

the opinion of people who have vast experience and technical knowledge about the subject. 

Then they make the law, 

and every drone owner must abide the law after that point, without being asked their opinion. 

Lets be frank here the vast majority of CV players are average to bad the top CV players probably occupy a 5% so in effect what your saying is disregard the vast majority because their opinion has no value and you can only have a valuable opinion if your stats match the quota for said opinion.

 

In the past week I have had numerous battles below tier 8 in CVs i have not noticed anything remotely op about them apart from the spotting mechanic on DDs , If i focus damage on DDs then I'm not focusing bigger damage on larger ships it seems to be a double edged sword so to speak while the Enemy CV and i have seen plenty focus on damage only.

 

The problem seems to be a high tier problem excluding the Hosho which is flat out broke and need removing as for mid tier they seem very well balanced so in effect the class isn't op it just elements of class at certain tiers need to be reworked.

 

Imo of course.

 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, MacFergus said:

Again your focusing on tier 10 this is not the case below that , I don't doubt their are some very good CVs players some in this thread but that does not mean the class as a whole is op.

 

Tier 4 CVs and tier 10 CVs seem to raise the most complaints and therefore need looking at.

 

Quite honestly i see average to mediocre CV players all the time below tier 8 maybe the problem is at the higher tier.

 

The unicorn players who comment on this thread are the exception to the rule that is not the case for the vast majority imo.

The thing is, if you aren;t above decent you'll struggle not to BLEED CREDITS at T8. 

Even if you have a premium CV. That is why you see mostly decent/good players in a T10 CV, and mostly same in T8 CV. 

 

T6 CV not so much, but they are still broken AF. And if a good player has them, they are very very OP. I have no problem taking a T6 in a fail-div and going T9.

I'm not very good at all. SUre I can be if I really try. But I hardly do and mostly I have fun and support my mates. Which is not the most effective way of playing CV. 

Sure it DOES have an effect, look at my Shokaku stats (the one I use most in division). Average = 54%, with 3 -div > 80%. 

 

I'd say problems are fixable, at least a bit:

- make spotting for ships > 8km away just minimap;

- make AA more effective;

- make "CV ammo" launched from further away, so ships have more time to avoid. 

 

--> for example torps can now be dropped so close, ships can't do anything. 

make the activation period/distance longer. So they have to be dropped from further away. 
But make it such that this will be in the most effective range for AA (AKA more range for AA). 

 

[AndyHill]

50 minutes ago, TheBradford said:

CVs work best when they have an team player in them. Unfourtnelty i dont see many team players in CV nowadays which is where the 'real hate' comes from. I dont think its down to CVs been OP or bad for the game but purely from those CV players who dont care and give every other CV player a bad name.

I don't think you understand CVs or what they do very well, because what you just wrote is absolutely untrue. A good carrier will maximize his destructive potential by focusing on farming the right targets with utter disregard to anything else. At times this may appear as teamwork, because the best targets are often the ones pushing forward and also engaging your teammates, because it makes them vulnerable and dangerous at the same time. Dropping fighters on friendlies only makes sense if it slows the red carrier down more than it slows you down (not often). 

 

The carrier is by FAR the best spotter, does damage with the best of them, dominates cap defense and is as close to immortal as you can get in this game (which makes them factually op). They do not require their team for anything other than not dying too fast and possibly taking caps at some point. They might as well be farming bots, everything is just a target to them. That is the antithesis of teamwork.

 

Anyway, being op is not the main problem with carriers. Their issues in ascending order of importance are 

3) They're op

2) They attack anyone anywhere anytime in insanely unfair ways with no counterplay

1) Their spotting abilities remove possibilities for making interesting maneuvers and aggressive positioning (which is the core of the game)

 

 

[MacFergus]

2 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

The thing is, if you aren;t above decent you'll struggle not to BLEED CREDITS at T8. 

Even if you have a premium CV. That is why you see mostly decent/good players in a T10 CV, and mostly same in T8 CV. 

 

T6 CV not so much, but they are still broken AF. And if a good player has them, they are very very OP. I have no problem taking a T6 in a fail-div and going T9.

I'm not very good at all. SUre I can be if I really try. But I hardly do and mostly I have fun and support my mates. Which is not the most effective way of playing CV. 

Sure it DOES have an effect, look at my Shokaku stats (the one I use most in division). Average = 54%, with 3 -div > 80%. 

 

I disagree with all due respect T6 CVs are not op at all your 54% solo is around the same as my T6 Jap CV and i average around 52k damage because I focus on DDs my average damage is very good according to the stats but 52k is nothing great , I'm sure the great CV players on here could do a lot more but that's because they are good players not that the class is op a player like Flamu would do well in any ship that does not make the ship op.

 

We have very good CV players on this thread but they are a minority the vast majority of us plebs do less than 52k in the Ryujo as the stats indicate meaning that from a damage prospective the CVs at tier 6 are bang on for average damage like other ships when played by the majority of people. 

[MacFergus]

7 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

3) They're op

2) They attack anyone anywhere anytime in insanely unfair ways with no counterplay

1) Their spotting abilities remove possibilities for making interesting maneuvers and aggressive positioning (which is the core of the game)

 

They seem op at certain Tiers.

 

Same as RTS CVs then because I loved it when I got cross torped and CV sniping was not fun when you met a vastly superior player not a good game experiance.

 

I agree with your third statement .

 

[st_dasa]

2 hours ago, TheBradford said:

As ive said the best players say this and that but it doesnt mean 100% they have the right answer. Is banning CVs and submarines into the game the right answer? 

 

Yes, I sincerely believe that removing those two classes (even tho subs are still not official part of the randoms, but there is strong inclination they will be) would benefit health of the game for the most.

 

However, WG's wallet would probably disagree with me, as they cannot afford another round of ''re-work'' or whatever they would call salvaging of the disaster that is today's iteration of World of Warships.

[Excavatus]

18 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

Lets be frank here the vast majority of CV players are average to bad the top CV players probably occupy a 5% so in effect what your saying is disregard the vast majority because their opinion has no value and you can only have a valuable opinion if your stats match the quota for said opinion.

Thats my opinion yes. 

Like in technical things, 

may be 20 guys max, create regulations to govern millions. 

did anybody ask you about "how fast should we drive?" no.. experts makes rules.. we abide them. 

 

we can always disagree with said rules, 

but you don't ask average or below average people.. you ask experts. 

 

[TheBradford]

9 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

 

3) They're op

2) They attack anyone anywhere anytime in insanely unfair ways with no counterplay

1) Their spotting abilities remove possibilities for making interesting maneuvers and aggressive positioning (which is the core of the game)

 

 

Yeah i dont agree with that.

 

So say a German CV is trying to kill a Holland?  A Holland can shred it planes and can easily make it difficult for trop drops to be successful, the best strategy for the German CV is to rely on his team to do the damage to Holland by spotting it. When i play CV and theres a minotaur protecting some ships such as a yamato and a thunder for example, im not going to fly into that lol. I ask my time to deal with the minotaur so i can get to the bbs. thats just a few examples. 

How is that a CV not needing a team?

 

Yeah they can attack anyone anywhere however you have to take into consideration flight time, how many enemy ships will i be flying past, will my hp be enough for when i get there. For example a common tactic for MVR players now its to attack enemy CVs with rocket planes early on however this can take a long time flying round enemy ships and usually you only get one run at the CV and once he knows what you are doing he can move to counter it. So there's tradeoffs, if the flight time is long are you making the right decision to attack anyone anywhere.

 

Yeah spotting abilities is strong however it doesnt remove interesting gameplay. Ive easily sneaked up on CVs especially when there's 4 dds in a game and one 1cv per side and just torped CV (yes i know your comment refers back to "wells hes an incompetent cv player - like most cv players nowadays).

 

 

[MacFergus]

8 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Thats my opinion yes. 

Like in technical things, 

may be 20 guys max, create regulations to govern millions. 

did anybody ask you about "how fast should we drive?" no.. experts makes rules.. we abide them. 

 

we can always disagree with said rules, 

but you don't ask average or below average people.. you ask experts. 

 

But those 20 people are voted in by your average plebs?.

 

And Experts are not always right they have a valued opinion but it does not mean it is the right one.

 

Someone like https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/profile/526953200-el2azer/ might do 90k average damage in the Ryujo and im doing 52k damage el2azer may think the CV is op and i do not but in this instance the vast majority of players are doing below 52k as the stats indicate meaning as a whole the Ryujo is performing average in an average players hands?.

 

 

[TheBradford]

10 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

 

Yes, I sincerely believe that removing those two classes (even tho subs are still not official part of the randoms, but there is strong inclination they will be) would benefit health of the game for the most.

Then i think our debate as come to a stand still.

 

Im excited for submarines and i enjoy CVs been in the game. BBs,dds and cruisers are fun but the variety is getting boring, yes they bring out a new bb thats a better brawler or sniper but is it a gamer changer, does it add variety.....not really.

 

I believe thats the problem - WG need to add variety, submarines and CV help that, they are completely new ways to play the game. They may lose a few players who are like "oooh if submarines are added im leaving" but they will gain many more. Just look at how player numbers spiked when submarines testing was added to the main sever. 

 

Dont you want the game to develop and grow? 

[Ashardalon_Dragnipur]

1 hour ago, TheBradford said:

Then ignoring the vast majority of player base without acknowledging their feedback is pretty demeaning.

it kind of like saying only educated people should vote, the rest of population without a collage degree shouldn't vote in the election.

 

Ive always seen WOW as a team based game, i see CV adding to that team work once people stop hating on them for no reason. CVs work best when they have an team player in them. Unfourtnelty i dont see many team players in CV nowadays which is where the 'real hate' comes from. I dont think its down to CVs been OP or bad for the game but purely from those CV players who dont care and give every other CV player a bad name.

if you balance for the best the bad players have something to strive for and a healthy environment to grow in

if you balance for the worst you leave easy things for the best to exploit and ruin everyones day 

dumbing down games leads to bad games 

balancing for a 3 year old will bore a 30 year old 

[Ashardalon_Dragnipur]

how long until subs and CVs will also be boring and they need to find something else to add to the game

your 4k games in and your bored, how does that speak of the health of the game with CVs included 

 

a cancer is something that grows and develops in a body

i would prefer that nt to happen in mine

develop and grow is weighted words, an attempt at manipulation

[st_dasa]

1 hour ago, MacFergus said:

Quite honestly i see average to mediocre CV players all the time below tier 8 maybe the problem is at the higher tier.

 

I believe it applies to every tier:

 

1. Mediocre to bad CV players are, more often than not, even worse in other ship classes. CV gameplay is literally dumbed down to the point that you can play them without any real skill which is very much needed for the other three classes. Spatial awareness? Nah, I can go in an instant wherever I want. Repercussions regarding your own positioning? Who cares, reds can barely see you, least reach you. Risk of bad gameplay being punished? Naaah, planes are basically ammo that can be replenished.

 

2. Bad to mediocre CV player offers much more utility for the team than same player sailing a BB. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that one particular MrPotato69, who is a 45% WR fellow, sails in his Montana. He would probably snipe, missing left right and center, and at some point, charge in and donate his HP to the luckiest enemy. To conclude, he is just a weight on his team and a dmg pinata. Now, lets put that same MrPotato69 into a CV. Although he is rather oblivious to the concepts of winning and strategy, he buzzes above the ordinary plebs and offers following: spotting, occasional 5k rocket strikes on those pesky DDs, induces herd / lemming mentality leading to boring clusterf*ck snipe games and ruins that one particular guy's game which he decided to focus. Oh, and did I mention constant spotting? In conclusion, CVs, even when played by the potatoes, do offer utility. Other ships do not.