General CV related discussions.

[Ashardalon_Dragnipur]

i have no life

it doesnt take that much time 

honestly dont understand the people that spend in their first 1000 battles but i guess thats their target audience 

[Glig69]

You have to realise that WG is a business, and after 5 years there's no money in selling stuff to group A.  It's much better (short-term profitable) to go after group B and offer OP ships or meme ships to capture their attention, make promises of easy wins and tease out their wallets ... and then do it again, and again, and again.  Never in the history of the game has there been such a deluge of premium ships ... incl the sacred cow T10 Premium Ship (another broken promise? stack it over there please).  They need new players, to flog them stuff ... they don't need us older players - and their business decisions, including the enduring sh*tstorm that is CVs, show this.  As the earlier poster said - time for us to wise up.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

On 11/24/2020 at 11:18 PM, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

It occurs to me this might be a good time to look back at what WG reps said at that CC summit Q&A in St Petersburg last year, and maybe consider how well it all held up. Just a little retrospective...

 

...which gives - again - the proof that WGs game designers and "balance specialist" don't seem to have any clue about their own game. And these are the people that plan to - wait for it.... - implement SUBMARINES into the game.

[arquata2019_]

22 ore fa, HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS ha scritto:

CV are broken. The players know it, WG know it, they won't be fixed. So I hope for games without them

i'll just leave this here

[ReapingKnight]

Who's seen Flamu's video on YouTube where the Des Moines keeps getting wrecked whilst in AA bubbles with Thunderer, CV and a  Halland haha

[Asakka]

10 minutes ago, ReapingKnight said:

Who's seen Flamu's video on YouTube where the Des Moines keeps getting wrecked whilst in AA bubbles with Thunderer, CV and a  Halland haha

Nope, its not like the video is being posted everywhere 

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

21 minutes ago, ReapingKnight said:

Who's seen Flamu's video on YouTube where the Des Moines keeps getting wrecked whilst in AA bubbles with Thunderer, CV and a  Halland haha

Sounds like a standard game to me.

[Absolute_Potato]

A lot of players are talking about nerfing the CV... But unfortunately it is not that easy....

Because if it was that simple, WG already would have implemented this long ago.

 

If you look at average damage and kills of the CV's, CV's perform at the level of the better cruisers and at the bottom level of BB's.

CV's excel on spotting damage, although they do not outperform DD's on average (yes, CV's are in the top 10).

 

With MM the CV takes a place of a BB, so they should be able to attack and give a punch.

But if a player thinks that he can play a static game with a CV in the game is almost the same as sailing broadside with a Zao to the whole enemy team within detection range..... (we can predict the outcome of that action).

 

The DPM of a CV is not that great, if the position of the CV is not optimal it might take a while before he can return and attack again. A CV can still be deplaned (varies per CV).

 

So, what kind of nerfs are we talking about?

1. Remove the spotting or restrict it to the minimap (but CV's get outperformed by DD's on spotting damage)?
2. Have DD's spotting range from the air cut in half (so that everyone get's torped to smithereens and have every BB player crying that DD's should be spotted)?
3. Change the aiming rectacle so that DD's almost don't receive damage from rocket attacks? (that is already done).

If you change the game mechanics to much on one class, you also have to change the other balance too..

• DD's complain about CV and Radar
• CL / CA complain about to much BB's with over-match in a game.
• BB complain about DD's, HE Spam and CV's

If you look at the numbers (yes they are average, but that's is universal and applies also on all other classes), does anyone have a good idea how to balance CV in respect to other classes?

 

I use Maplesyrup for analysis.

[UnterSeeBot]

2 minutes ago, Absolute_Potato said:

A lot of players are talking about nerfing the CV... But unfortunately it is not that easy....

Because if it was that simple, WG already would have implemented this long ago.

 

If you look at average damage and kills of the CV's, CV's perform at the level of the better cruisers and at the bottom level of BB's.

CV's excel on spotting damage, although they do not outperform DD's on average (yes, CV's are in the top 10).

 

With MM the CV takes a place of a BB, so they should be able to attack and give a punch.

But if a player thinks that he can play a static game with a CV in the game is almost the same as sailing broadside with a Zao to the whole enemy team within detection range..... (we can predict the outcome of that action).

 

The DPM of a CV is not that great, if the position of the CV is not optimal it might take a while before he can return and attack again. A CV can still be deplaned (varies per CV).

 

So, what kind of nerfs are we talking about?

1. Remove the spotting or restrict it to the minimap (but CV's get outperformed by DD's on spotting damage)?
2. Have DD's spotting range from the air cut in half (so that everyone get's torped to smithereens and have every BB player crying that DD's should be spotted)?
3. Change the aiming rectacle so that DD's almost don't receive damage from rocket attacks? (that is already done).

If you change the game mechanics to much on one class, you also have to change the other balance too..

• DD's complain about CV and Radar
• CL / CA complain about to much BB's with over-match in a game.
• BB complain about DD's, HE Spam and CV's

If you look at the numbers (yes they are average, but that's is universal and applies also on all other classes), does anyone have a good idea how to balance CV in respect to other classes?

 

I use Maplesyrup for analysis.

This is far too complicated. Let me simplify for you,

 5 dds = 1 cv

how and why

dd class roles in WOWS

scouting, area denial, countering dds, (soon subs), cap contest, end game trump

cv class roles in WOWS

scouting, area denial, countering dds, (soon subs), cap contest, end game trump

 

They have simiar roles, but in every respect except cap contest, CVs do the job far more efficiently, and render dds unable to fulfill their role, or at best, greatly diminishes their uselfulness/efficiency/threat value. 

 

But CVs cannot be nerfed to have the equivalent battle influence of a single dd, (unless aircraft speed were reduced to dd levels of max 50 knots, which I'm sure would seem ridiculous to many), or unless CV players were only able to controlm a single squadron for the duration of a battle (no replacement planes, no regeneration), which would of course make the concept of CVs, redundant.

[Absolute_Potato]

 

10 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

This is far too complicated. Let me simplify for you,

 5 dds = 1 cv

how and why

dd class roles in WOWS

scouting, area denial, countering dds, (soon subs), cap contest, end game trump

cv class roles in WOWS

scouting, area denial, countering dds, (soon subs), cap contest, end game trump

 

They have simiar roles, but in every respect except cap contest, CVs do the job far more efficiently, and render dds unable to fulfill their role, or at best, greatly diminishes their uselfulness/efficiency/threat value. 

 

But CVs cannot be nerfed to have the equivalent battle influence of a single dd, (unless aircraft speed were reduced to dd levels of max 50 knots, which I'm sure would seem ridiculous to many), or unless CV players were only able to controlm a single squadron for the duration of a battle (no replacement planes, no regeneration), which would of course make the concept of CVs, redundant.

A single squadron can be an option, but a destroyer have the option of shooting HE, AP or Torps (3 consumables) and some of the DD's can even use Hydro and or radar.

To put an CV on the same level, you would have 3 squadrons.... But how would you balance the health pool of your squadron's?

[DFens_666]

6 minutes ago, Absolute_Potato said:

I use Maplesyrup for analysis.

 

Must be a different one than mine, because

 

Top 25 ships by spotting damage. First DD is on 8, which is so limited you might aswell ignore it. There are only 530 on EU server, which is less than FDRs.

T8 CVs comfortably top T10 DDs in spotting damage. In the top 20 ships, there are only 5 DDs, and 15 CVs.

 

9 minutes ago, Absolute_Potato said:

If you change the game mechanics to much on one class, you also have to change the other balance too..

 

Every class complains about CVs. Thats the difference.

 

11 minutes ago, Absolute_Potato said:

If you look at average damage and kills of the CV's, CV's perform at the level of the better cruisers and at the bottom level of BB's.

 

 

Top 20 techtree ships by average damage. They are definetely on par with BBs, probably better. Most Cruisers also rely on firedamage to some degree, which lowers their effective damage. MvR basicly wont cause much DoTs, still its ahead of Conqueror, which is a notorious HE spammer with inflated, useless damage.

On T8, CVs (techtree ones) are together with the lower end BBs, but still ahead of all Cruisers.

[UnterSeeBot]

2 minutes ago, Absolute_Potato said:

 

A single squadron can be an option, but a destroyer have the option of shooting HE, AP or Torps (3 consumables) and some of the DD's can even use Hydro and or radar.

To put an CV on the same level, you would have 3 squadrons.... But how would you balance the health pool of your squadron's?

give the single, non replaceable squadron, dd level hp pool (relevant to tier), allow it to "reload" munitions in flight (no sillier than dds being able to reload torpedos at sea in under a minute).

calibrate AA to take into account finite hp pool and new status of Squadrons as a player controlled unit equivalent to a dd, cruiser or battleship (or indeed, equivelent to a submarine).

sit back and enjoy (the salt)/

because that would be fair (as in a measure of equal treatment)

[Absolute_Potato]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Must be a different one than mine, because

 

Top 25 ships by spotting damage. First DD is on 8, which is so limited you might aswell ignore it. There are only 530 on EU server, which is less than FDRs.

T8 CVs comfortably top T10 DDs in spotting damage. In the top 20 ships, there are only 5 DDs, and 15 CVs.

 

 

Every class complains about CVs. Thats the difference.

 

 

 

Top 20 techtree ships by average damage. They are definetely on par with BBs, probably better. Most Cruisers also rely on firedamage to some degree, which lowers their effective damage. MvR basicly wont cause much DoTs, still its ahead of Conqueror, which is a notorious HE spammer with inflated, useless damage.

On T8, CVs (techtree ones) are together with the lower end BBs, but still ahead of all Cruisers.

I used the maplesyrup of the 3rd quarter. So that is why I don't have the actual figures of the FDR. And it shows different values.

 

But I did make an mistake about the spotting damage (did not refresh my excel view).

 

[Absolute_Potato]

 

Now with headers.

[Absolute_Potato]

 

This is compared to cruisers and battleships (again, based on the 3rd quarter results).

It's sorted against the avg damage.

 

The MVR stands out, but is that because MVR is so strong, or is he mostly played by experienced CV players and other players still have to learn to counter a MVR?

[DFens_666]

29 minutes ago, Absolute_Potato said:

or is he mostly played by experienced CV players

 

Same can be said (and is even more true) for steel ships like Bourgogne and Shikishima. I assume, Slava fits that aswell, while its not so limited access as the others, its stil easier to achieve for better, longterm players who can invest freeXP to skip the grind.

If you would give a ship like Bourgogne to everyone, id think it will drop towards the lower end. Has no armor and no HP, speedboost is a recipe for desaster for bad players (because it gets them into problems way faster) and they cant use MBRB properly.

 

Btw, if the quarterly numbers are lower than the numbers from last week, we can assume that MvR is actually GAINING damage, so people are getting better at it.

And whats the counterplay? Angle against rockets, so the BB gets a free shot at the citadel? It wont show up at damage for MvR, yet its undeniably his "fault" that the damage was inflicted.

- Either MvR deals the damage himself

- A BB causes the damage because MvR exists

Both is incredibly frustrating.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Absolute_Potato said:

So, what kind of nerfs are we talking about?

1. Remove the spotting or restrict it to the minimap (but CV's get outperformed by DD's on spotting damage)?

Agreed. The reason you'd rather have a DD spotting, is that while a CV does spot more, he also spots it shorter.

As such:

- when you are in a BB, yes you will blap that DD-spotted cruiser as you have time to turn your guns and aim.

- when u you are in a BB, no you will NOT blap that CV-spotted cruiser, as he'll be unspotted once the planes are dead or have moved on.

- of course it is different for a spotted DD, he gets blapped by cruisers much easier than a cruiser gets blapped by a BB.  

 

1 hour ago, Absolute_Potato said:

1. Have DD's spotting range from the air cut in half (so that everyone get's torped to smithereens and have every BB player crying that DD's should be spotted)?

Wuuuttt wUUt WUTTTT, again? Already a DD is only spotted form 2.5km? 

Unless he uses his AA, then he is spotted from AA- range. 

 

1 hour ago, Absolute_Potato said:

1. Change the aiming rectacle so that DD's almost don't receive damage from rocket attacks? (that is already done).

Yes is done. Used to be 4-5k damage regularly. But still, it is impossible to angle against everything. 

I think rockets need to go, perhaps the upcoming SUBS would be a good reason: replace by ASW bombs. 

Then buff CV secondaries - else those darn DDs get wild ideas. Which they get anyways, but hey.

[BLUB__BLUB]

8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

And whats the counterplay? Angle against rockets, so the BB gets a free shot at the citadel? It wont show up at damage for MvR, yet its undeniably his "fault" that the damage was inflicted.

- Either MvR deals the damage himself

- A BB causes the damage because MvR exists

Both is incredibly frustrating.

 

IMO the "spotting all over" needs to go. Maybe that is why WG tried the cyclone in CB. 

But what I think, the spotting needs to be 8km (or so) for all, and the rest gets minimap. 

THEN you can maybe angle against CV. If he has any friends in 8km, well, then you were (about to be) spotted anyway. 

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

 

IMO the "spotting all over" needs to go. Maybe that is why WG tried the cyclone in CB. 

But what I think, the spotting needs to be 8km (or so) for all, and the rest gets minimap. 

THEN you can maybe angle against CV. If he has any friends in 8km, well, then you were (about to be) spotted anyway. 

 

Yeah, i dont understand why they dont even want to try this... Or basicly any form of minimap only spotting. THey once said "people wouldnt understand that". Most of the average players dont use the minimap anyway. And i think those that do, will understand when a ship doesnt appear on the screen when its spotted on the minimap. Or what are they doing in a cyclone? Drop from their chairs into fetal position because ship doesnt appear?! its the same thing, but apparently, for CVs its different

[Absolute_Potato]

7 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Same can be said (and is even more true) for steel ships like Bourgogne and Shikishima. I assume, Slava fits that aswell, while its not so limited access as the others, its stil easier to achieve for better, longterm players who can invest freeXP to skip the grind.

If you would give a ship like Bourgogne to everyone, id think it will drop towards the lower end. Has no armor and no HP, speedboost is a recipe for desaster for bad players (because it gets them into problems way faster) and they cant use MBRB properly.

 

Btw, if the quarterly numbers are lower than the numbers from last week, we can assume that MvR is actually GAINING damage, so people are getting better at it.

And whats the counterplay? Angle against rockets, so the BB gets a free shot at the citadel? It wont show up at damage for MvR, yet its undeniably his "fault" that the damage was inflicted.

- Either MvR deals the damage himself

- A BB causes the damage because MvR exists

Both is incredibly frustrating.

Yeah, just looked at the numbers of previous week, they are higher.

 

You are right about the Bourgogne, giving this ship to everyone is indeed a recipe for some fun and engaging games :-)

The numbers are gaining for the FDR and MVR.. so expecting some nerfes on these ships.

 

[Absolute_Potato]

In CB a faced a lot of MVR (I played MVR, Hindenburg and Petro). But when I was with any surface ship, I managed to dodge most of his attacks. Even a slight angle changes the results of his attack significantly.

[BLUB__BLUB]

Just now, DFens_666 said:

 

Yeah, i dont understand why they dont even want to try this... Or basicly any form of minimap only spotting. THey once said "people wouldnt understand that". Most of the average players dont use the minimap anyway. And i think those that do, will understand when a ship doesnt appear on the screen when its spotted on the minimap. Or what are they doing in a cyclone? Drop from their chairs into fetal position because ship doesnt appear?! its the same thing, but apparently, for CVs its different

Well I have seen (heard) them (CVs included) drop from chairs when cyclone hits, too. Not sure about fetal position. But might be.

Spot that DD! I am spotting! But I don't see him! Why are you dead? HELLL!! TORPS INCOMING!!! Oh wait... 

 

Yes ships spotted on minimap, but not on screen. It is as easy as that. Happens all  the time, too. Like if they are too far away.

After that you might wanna make it different for each class or vary the spotting/appearing distance. 

 

If most players don't use the minimap, well, that is no fault of the game or WG. I use it. Anyone can learn.

Git Gud or be fodder. That way I also have a chance of being somewhat around 50%... 

[Glig69]

1 hour ago, LoveZeppelin said:

give the single, non replaceable squadron, dd level hp pool (relevant to tier), allow it to "reload" munitions in flight (no sillier than dds being able to reload torpedos at sea in under a minute).

calibrate AA to take into account finite hp pool and new status of Squadrons as a player controlled unit equivalent to a dd, cruiser or battleship (or indeed, equivelent to a submarine).

sit back and enjoy (the salt)/

because that would be fair (as in a measure of equal treatment)

I like this idea - make it so that the CV player actually has something to lose by engaging his/her single squadron of planes; make the ship AA effective, to actually punish poorly carried out approaches (just like a DD can get punished);  adjust the plane HP appropriately to allow them to last as long as a DD would under fire; probably adjust their air speed, for some planes to prevent them being able to redeploy too quickly;  maybe buff their damage - eg make the torps as effective as a DD's ... but again you only have one squadron, so you would have to think really carefully about how you engage the enemy; get rid of the carrier itself - it's not needed, and this removes the CV vs CV battleplay and removes the idiocy where some CVs seem to be unsinkable; allow for change of munitions as LZ suggests.  This might make the concept workable.  As it is, CVs are simply broken and continue to get worse with every new line that WG brings out.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, Absolute_Potato said:

In CB a faced a lot of MVR (I played MVR, Hindenburg and Petro). But when I was with any surface ship, I managed to dodge most of his attacks. Even a slight angle changes the results of his attack significantly.

Same here. But when you sit behind island stationary... well yeah. 

And same when I played the CV, cruiser behind islands were the favourite. 

Insane damage possible. But moving ones? Not so much. 

[Absolute_Potato]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Same here. But when you sit behind island stationary... well yeah. 

And same when I played the CV, cruiser behind islands were the favourite. 

Insane damage possible. But moving ones? Not so much. 

Yeah, in CB once the game got going I focused the defending side of the enemy (mostly 2 ships) and support the pushing side on request. But when in a Petro, I got almost destroyed because of a mistake I made. A moving ship is a lot more difficult to citadel with a MVR, you can mitigate a lot of damage by wiggling. But in Randoms especially in early game when all ships are still in the game, getting focused down by a CV is annoying. But even while playing DD (RN DD) you can annoy the crap out of a CV player. But you have to play differently.