General CV related discussions.

[CptBarney]

16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/227642-countering-cvs-in-randoms/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-5238423

 

You havin fun in the NA forums again lol?

[WarDax]

 

Quote

 

Ways to counter CV attacks if you're in a CL.

1: Don't be out on a flank alone our out wondering alone (stay with a battle buddy)

2: Don't drive in straight lines.

• Torp bombers, turn into them, to try to split them and lower your silhouette
• Dive bombers, maneuver, angle, etc often the RNG of the bomb drops will make them miss most a strike.
• Rocket, turn into them, essentially so the strike is perpendicular to your heading it spreads their rockets out and you cut through them.

3: Contrary to what people think there are a lot of counters to CV play that people don't talk about. Specifically and the biggest issue I see from players is parking, this is NOT a good tactic, Playing with throttles in turns, constantly changing course, these are all tactics that should be used to counter aerial ordinance (JUST LIKE SHELLS FIRED AT YOU)

4: If you are in something lightly armored, don't be on the front lines, this is not your job, this is the job for those that have armor or speed. I see this mistake made VERY often. If you are squishy, don't just charge out at the enemy. If you are in a bad position, use situational awareness of the minimap to fall back and get back with the team. Often and most times, this is what happens to a cruiser that is quickly picked off. Keep everything at arms length.

5: Learn your armor strong points on your ships, you can learn better how to angle and which way to turn to counter incoming fire, this is VERY MUCH seen vs the German CVs. A German rocket attack is VERY easily countered if you're in a cruiser and angle against the AP rockets.

6: Train up Captains! Do not dismiss this, having a captain with multiple skills even early game can make a big difference.

As a DD main, still to this day, CVs DO NOT bug me as some people are so doom and gloom about. Considering I play a lot of battles on the regular, I get killed and damaged more by surface ships than I do CVs.

I know some will disagree and just say its "impossible," it is not, if it was "impossible" there would be no players that are able to avoid these things and still be successful in battle.

-Hapa

 

 

 

That was kinda illuminating as in pointing out some of the issues with Random games. 

 

Answering above points as I see it:

 

1. People go out alone. A LOT.

2. People want to hit with broadsides and keep enemy in target. Thus they tend to not do a lot of zig-zag

3. Parking - camping? - is common, and the more range you have the more camping you will do.

4. Most DD go up to the front lines. Some people say its their goddamn JOB to scout ahead.

5. Dissing German CV's are we...? But yes, that is a valid point but if you are rocketed and torpedoed from 4 different angles, WHAT THE F DO YOU DO?

6. I use the Wiki and train my Caps but the XP build up is sooo slow.

[UnterSeeBot]

6 minutes ago, WarDax said:

 

 

 

That was kinda illuminating as in pointing out some of the issues with Random games. 

 

 

point 1 advises players to never leave their gluey blob

points 2,3&5 advise all sorts of Just Dodge manouvres. 

point 4  advises all ships that can be hurt by CV drops, to hide at the back of the map and hope big bad cv doesn't look for them.

point 6 advises tier 4 players to make sure they have 19 pt captains AA specced before playing random battles

read the other, subsequent, replies by the same person (too). All illuminating.

edit : I note the thread has been locked, now that the above, irrefutably reasonable, and absolutely accurate, advice has been shared FREELY!

[WarDax]

@LoveZeppelin

Irony much?

[UnterSeeBot]

3 minutes ago, WarDax said:

@LoveZeppelin

Irony much?

w0t me? NEVER!

[UnderDuress]

The NA forums is truly a special place.

[CptBarney]

21 minutes ago, UnderDuress said:

The NA forums is truly a special place.

makes me wonder what the asian or russian forums are like. 

[Captaindanz]

2 hours ago, UnderDuress said:

The NA forums is truly a special place.

Eu got a fair share of pepegas.

[AndyHill]

7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/227642-countering-cvs-in-randoms/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-5238423

 

Holy ship that whole discussion is eye opening. At first you get all the bullship arguments you're used to, but then the CV apologists basically go "yeah carriers suck but what can you do". I especially love the guy who tries to teach people to play DM - without ever having played a single game in a DM (and you don't want to know how he's doing in Balti). I mean how can you as WG read CV apologists literally state that there is no counterplay besides sucking it up and trying to cope with getting crabbed on and not get the hint? This whole carrier debacle is truly one of the most unbelievable video game related things I have ever witnessed.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

23 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

 This whole carrier debacle is truly one of the most unbelievable video game related things I have ever witnessed.

IKR. As far as regular PVP game design goes, I can't recall anything more absurd in over 25 years of gaming and designing games myself lol. But that might be because I'm forgetting things :/

 

EDIT: Rofl I just read tip 1 on how to counter a CV: Dont be alone. that'll teach the bad bad carrier XD

[CptBarney]

58 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Holy ship that whole discussion is eye opening. At first you get all the bullship arguments you're used to, but then the CV apologists basically go "yeah carriers suck but what can you do". I especially love the guy who tries to teach people to play DM - without ever having played a single game in a DM (and you don't want to know how he's doing in Balti). I mean how can you as WG read CV apologists literally state that there is no counterplay besides sucking it up and trying to cope with getting crabbed on and not get the hint? This whole carrier debacle is truly one of the most unbelievable video game related things I have ever witnessed.

Yeah, pretty special over there. I mean we have our own, but still.

 

@El2aZeR Anyone moar funsies or brain destroying topics over there at all?

[WarDax]

34 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Anyone moar funsies or brain destroying topics over there at all?

@CptBarney 

 

Plenty. I browsed those quite a bit some time ago before I acknowledged our supremacy in just about every civilized subject here in the EU. There is a reason I hate Reddit for the most part.

[MadGunna]

22 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

Yep... I either pressed that buttons to early or to late and half of the time my fighters decided to fly some extra circles before starting the strafe... It wasn't fun so I wasn't interested to invest too much time to "get it right".

CVs was never a favourite class of mine, so only rarely playing the T5 CVs for the "shoot don't x planes down" missions in CoOp were needed anyway...

Aaaah I see. Yeah the learning curve for that was a little tight. I'm a madlad who enjoys RTS just as much as shooters so I got really into it. To each their own.

 

13 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/227642-countering-cvs-in-randoms/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-5238423

 

Not gonna lie. That made me giggle.

[Capra76]

14 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/227642-countering-cvs-in-randoms/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-5238423

 

 

Oh my god!

 

I mean I'm a potato CV player and I take one look at those "counters" and the only thought I have is do they even play their own ing game.

[Lootboxer]

OH COMMON GUYS!

PEOPLE FROM WG TRYING TO GIVE YOU FREE ADVICE AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS LAUGH INSTEAD OF TRYING TO LEARN!

FOR YOU ALL  TL;DR VERSION:

JUST DODGE TRYING TO STAY IN THE BLOB WITH ALL AA SKILLS SPECCED!

SIMPLE AS THAT!

 

Sorry for capital letters.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

15 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/227642-countering-cvs-in-randoms/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-5238423

 

 

Wow... the amount of BS given in that official (!!!) post is mindblasting.

 

Hey @El2aZeR, any chance for You having a couple battles in which all those WG cronies developers can test their fantastic CV defend tactics against some skilled player, not one of their seemingly utterly incompent company CV players?

Would be a great watch for a stream, I right?

[Sunleader]

16 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/227642-countering-cvs-in-randoms/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-5238423

 

 

What the **** are Wargaming Employees really th.. ........

Sorry.....

That very nearly caused me to say something I would be Banned for.....

 

 

I mean Seriously ?

 

1.

Alot of Ships in the Game simply cannot Stay with a "Battle Buddy" because that makes them useless. Especially DDs which are the most Affected simply cannot do this without Abandoning the Team.

And thats assuming that having a "Battle Buddy" would help you. Which in most cases it really doesnt cause it wont Stop a Drop.

 

2.

Thanks for the Great Advice. But unlike Torpedoes from DDs. CVs dont drop their Load from 8km away. They can Adjust for Evasive Maneuvers. So at the very best you can make Guaranteed Hits into RNG dependent Hits.

Moreover this assumes you are in a Position where you can actually afford to Drive evasive Maneuvers. In alot of cases its way better to Drive in a Straight line. Because the 10k Damage from the CV Torps are just not worth Risking 40k Citadel from showing an Enemy your Flat Unprotected Broadside....

And unlike Enemy Ships that have to actually drive around large areas while being shot at to create a crossfire. CVs can unfortunately create a Crossfire without any effort.

 

3.

No.... Just No for **** sake.  PLS unless you are a DD in Smoke or who is currently not Spotted by a CV. Do not Slow down your Ship under any Circumstances when attacked by a CV. It only makes you a Sitting Duck and an easy Target.

Against a Full Speed Driving BB I can only Guarantee the Second Drop of a Crossdrop to be a Full Hit. If you are ****** enough to Slow down I get 2 Full Drop Hits from my Crossdropping.

Against DBs it works even less cause you just allow the CV to drop from height of choice without needing to calculate your movement...

Rest is just Point 2 Repeated...

Albeit Yeah. Dont Park. Thats good Advice. Dont make it easier for the CV than it needs to be.

 

4.

Ok.... So DDs and Light Cruisers should Generally Sit behind their Battleships.

Noted. Catalogued as WG Guy having no Idea how to Play the Game. And Forgotten.

Lets not Talk about this Please....

 

5.

Yes Great Advice. Albeit its completely meaningless of your Armor and only Works against German CVs.

By the way even works with Destroyer Armor of 19mm. But thats the thing. Only against German CVs.

Against everything else dont bother. Cause the CV decides where to hit you. Not you. No matter how you Angle they dont care because AP Bombs come from above and HE doesnt care about Angling.

And the only CVs with an AP Weapon fired from the Side is German CVs Rockets...

Maybe German CV Bouncing Bombs in the future if they want to make German CVs even more useless in Randoms.....

 

6.

Yeah. That is very Nice. But meaningless against CVs lol.

Nice General Game Advice tough.

 

 

 

 

Now after looking at all that however.

I have a Question.

When does he come to the thing about actually Countering CVs ?

He has been Talking alot about how to make yourself a Harder Target for the Enemy CV by doing basic things that are so obvious everyone should know or by doing absolutely useless things that will make you useless for your Team.

Thing is. He has yet to actually make any Mention of how to actually Manage to Defeat an Enemy CV or how reach it.

A Duck trying to sit in the High Grass to avoid being Shot by the Hunter isnt exactly Countering the Hunter. Its just Hiding from the Hunter and trying to avoid being Shot Dead by him. But that doesnt Counter the Hunter.

It just makes it more likely for the Hunter to Shoot the other Ducks or invest more Effort into Shooting you depending on what you do.

 

So someone help me and tell me when exactly he gets to the Point of how you can actually Counter CVs.

I would be Interested in that.

[Ze_Reckless]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

A Duck trying to sit in the High Grass to avoid being Shot by the Hunter isnt exactly Countering the Hunter. Its just Hiding from the Hunter and trying to avoid being Shot Dead by him. But that doesnt Counter the Hunter.

It just makes it more likely for the Hunter to Shoot the other Ducks or invest more Effort into Shooting you depending on what you do.

Nice metaphor. We, who ask the question how to counter a CV, are the hunter and Hapa is the duck. He hides in the high grass from the answer. Did I get that right? 

 

 

 

 

Hapa knows the answer is 'you don't counter the CV'. He gets paid to tell you something else than that. Though, it would have been better for him to stick to his battle buddies who sit on J line and ignore the subject entirely.

[159Hunter]

23 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/227642-countering-cvs-in-randoms/?page=11&tab=comments#comment-5238423

 

:slow_clap:

 

And even better, the moment people want to discuss the answer, the same poster closes the topic.

Stalin could not be prouder

[WarDax]

@Sunleader

 

I would appreciate suggestions on my answers to that, I am of course still learning, but some points seem relevant so please bash me... 

[Sunleader]

1 minute ago, WarDax said:

@Sunleader

 

I would appreciate suggestions on my answers to that, I am of course still learning, but some points seem relevant so please bash me... 

 

Give me a Link to your Post and I will gladly oblige.

[WarDax]

 

[Sunleader]

On 10/14/2020 at 10:23 AM, WarDax said:

 

 

 

That was kinda illuminating as in pointing out some of the issues with Random games. 

 

Answering above points as I see it:

 

1. People go out alone. A LOT.

2. People want to hit with broadsides and keep enemy in target. Thus they tend to not do a lot of zig-zag

3. Parking - camping? - is common, and the more range you have the more camping you will do.

4. Most DD go up to the front lines. Some people say its their goddamn JOB to scout ahead.

5. Dissing German CV's are we...? But yes, that is a valid point but if you are rocketed and torpedoed from 4 different angles, WHAT THE F DO YOU DO?

6. I use the Wiki and train my Caps but the XP build up is sooo slow.

 

 

1.

Yes. Because that is usually wat Wins Battles.

A Shimakaze for example can easily protect itself from CVs by staying behind their BBs/Cruisers. But it will be utterly useless there.

Because a Shima to be useful either has to Flank the Enemy with Torps or Take Caps.

Both of which are positions where BBs/Cruisers cant follow.

 

Thats why staying together close enough to provide AA Cover is often not an Option if you want to Win the Match.

 

Moreover. You need 3-4 people to actually make a CV have trouble attacking you.

 

 

2.

People dont like ZigZagging because it exposes their Citadel.

CVs can freely attack from any Direction.

So any CV worth his Salt will Attack in a Cross to his Team.

Because that means if the Target tries evade your strike he will end exposed to the Enemy Ships.

 

Example. Yamato bow in to your Team.

As CV you will easily use Divebombers and Attack from the Bow.

For the Yamato to evade. He needs to show broadside to your Divebombers.

But that means he would need to also Show Broadside to your Teams BBs.

Thats why its not an real Option.

 

 

3.

Camping and Parking is common because some Ships work like that.

HE Spam Cruisers for example dont have the Armor and Fast Damage output to engage in an Ooen Water Artillery Duel.

Moreover they Fire constantly and thus need to adjust Aim constantly.

Unlike a BB which Aims and Fires and then has 20-30 Seconds to Maneuver.

A Worcester has 3 Seconds.

 

Yamato is a good Example too.

You often see them Parking.

The Reason is that their rear and side Armor is very weak.

They easily get Citadeled or struck with high Damage if you show even parts of your Side or rear.

So for them the only way to use their Big Guns is to Bow in at long Range.

And since they cant Brawl either they have no choice but to park or reverse.

 

 

4.

It is.

Because a DD is designed to Fight below 10km range.

If he sits behind his BBs at 15-20km range.

He could just as well be AFK.

But other Ships cant follow him forward cause they would get massacred.

 

So the DD has no choice.

If DDs stay back the Game will generally be a Roflstomp cause Enemy gets all Caps and your team is Forced to Yolo or lose by Points.

 

 

5.

German CVs Rockets to be precise.

Cause Torps and AP Bombs can only be partially mitigated by Angling.

Currently the only CV Weapon that cares for Angling of Armor is German AP Rockets.

Everything else will still work.

 

 

6.

Captain Skills are Importand for everything.

Always try to train Captains.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you want to Annoy CVs.

 

A.

Use Smoke.

Yes its a waste. But its the only thing the CV cant easily breach.

B.

Do NOT abandon your Duties.

If you retreat the CV has already Won cause your out of the Game.

If you sit behind Teammates because your scared of the CV then you could just as well be Dead.

C.

Use Sector. It wont stop the CV. But it at least slows his Impact by losses if enough people do it.

D.

If the CV is Spotted. Shoot him.

You might not kill him.

But all HP he loses forces him to be further away.

E.

ONLY evade if you can do so without exposing yourself.

Especially as BB. Taking the Strike is often better than Showing Broadside.

F.

Damage Con after being safe.

Or the CV will prioritize you for perma Gires/Floods.

[WarDax]

Well, you kinda focus on DD, I rather play Cruiser or BB, but points taken. I do have a Z-39, that I use occasionally.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[UnderDuress]

19 hours ago, Captaindanz said:

Eu got a fair share of pepegas.

Spoiler

In spoiler because not related to CVs at all.

 

There certainly are on EU but usually they seem to be who don’t know game mechanics and never really cared, which is fair enough. Or people with different interpretations of intangibles like effectiveness or counter play, even if I disagree it’s fair enough. There is only really one poster who can’t cope with simple empirical facts. On NA there seems to be multiple who seem to actively think about the game and spend all their time on the forum but still are absolutely divorced from reality. Even a simple question on HE damage devolves into this absolute mess after the simple answer is posted by the 5th post https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/227981-need-help-understanding/