General CV related discussions.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

4 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

I think you represent a majority of Cv players, my thinking goes against the grain. We are molded by the game architecture, to think exclusively in terms of "ships" .

But when you play CVs, where do you spend most of your time, in CV driver mode, or in Squadron Leader view? I bet you spend the majority of your time and effort, managing a single squadron, than you do in directing via waypoints, your CV. And that's it, even when you manage your CV, you probably do so in the most abstract way possible, pressing M and clicking on the map.. Furthermore, what do you deal dmg with? Your planes or your hulls' secondaries?

I don't care about what I deal damage with. I would even go back to RTS very gladly if I could. 

I want my CV ship to be present. I use it in ways most don't and I'm excited about pressing M every minute each battle to evaluate my hulls position to move closer or further away with simple clicks. I don't get screwed by autopilot anymore because after 3k CV battles you know how bad it is to make it work. 

I like using that hull to bait enemy players into pushing bad positons. 

And above all that when I play DDs I love sinking the clueless enemy CV. Because it's rather easy to do so given that the big big majority of CV players are just bad at the game and a non threat. 

 

You won't be able to convince me otherwise. 

[UnterSeeBot]

12 minutes ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

. I use it in ways most don't and I'm excited about pressing M every minute each battle to evaluate my hulls position to move closer or further away with simple clicks.

Ah yes, that excitement. I agree there is a specific tension/suspense we can enjoy when flirting with our hull concealment, but it is a one trick pony. That is truly the only fun element of CV hull management. 

We would get much the same enjoyment with a unique, non replaceable air squadron, flirting with its concealment, baiting the enemy, and with the risk of being sent back to port.

12 minutes ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

And above all that when I play DDs I love sinking the clueless enemy CV. Because it's rather easy to do so given that the big big majority of CV players are just bad at the game and a non threat. 

This I agree with. Given our very limited ability to fight off air attacks (reliant on automated AA), sinking the enemy hull offers immense satisfaction. But this desire to sink the enemy hull, which is only worth 5 more battle points than a bb in randoms, is a paltry compensation for the failure of WG to implement air squadron <> surface ship interaction on fair, reciprocal, terms. (We cannot manually point our AA at incoming air squadrons and press the fire button in the knowledge that this will have serious consequences for the CV player.)

I have a weekly WOWS mental health plan, I try to sink 3 CVs a week with a dd.

12 minutes ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

You won't be able to convince me otherwise. 

Of this I have no doubt

[Blogaugis]

22 hours ago, hopfolk said:

"CV's OP" sounds like something who's only been playing since the rework might say.

Anyone who remembers the horror of being repeatedly Cross-dropped by a good CV player should know better.

How... often would you even encounter a good CV player in random battles?

I can at least say that it was a pleasure to survive the said cross-dropping and finish off the enemy CV with a salvo of your own...

22 hours ago, hopfolk said:

Also, AA kills planes now. A lot. It didn't in the past when planes were limited unless you were in a light cruiser. Remember when light cruisers had a point?

Bubble/Field AA kills planes now to the point where it can feel absolutely pointless being in an up-tier game with a CV (once the DDs are dead).

Hell, most BBs can cut down at least one flight from your squadrons, from such a range that you often can't make it to the target.

And Rocket planes that have a few seconds of boost then fly slower than a bloody French DD ?  W...T...F...  (They don't but it feels like it)

AA (and fighters) was a lot of randomness back then. I guess I can give a plus here that AAs are less random now and can be predicted. It is also a plus that other ships can get some rewards for downing planes...

Well, in my Lexington, it happened a couple of times that I lost my whole squadron without a chance to even fire off my armament. Against a single ship.

Frankly, I find these 'flights' to be rather stupid - why bother going around, getting shot by AA, if you can just fire off ALL in a single squadron what you got at them and head back home?

And flight characteristics...

Well, it is a World of Warplanes inside a World of Warships game, except it is a lot worse than the original (without the ability to control the altitude, angle of attack and etc.). Maybe even... World of Squadrons..?

22 hours ago, hopfolk said:

Finally the endless regeneration of planes?    Sure, it's dumb, but is it any dumber than some Sea-Rat DD launching Spread after spread of up to FIFTEEN Torpedoes?

If you want to limit CVs and go back to the old days, then we should really limit DDs for the sake of fairness.

If the ammunition in battle was limited, if the amount of torpedoes was limited, yeah, it would make sense...

But... I think it would be better if planes actually meant something - if you lose 1 plane, your team loses 1 point. In that case, there would be an incentive to not be foolishly reckless with them.

Nah. Back in the day planes could also spot the torpedoes. So if you had an attentive CV player on your team, he/she could spot some troubles ahead for you. Or ruin your surprise for the enemy...

[Just_a_bit_meh]

Dear Wargaming,

CV

 

[edited]OFF

 

Regards

 

Pissed off DD player.

[MixuS]

I just started doing the Epoch campaign, and first stage mandates playing tiers 2-4. This has given me some indication that current CV situation might actually be killing the game slowly. Sure, plenty off doomsayers yell "the game is dying" all the time, and have done so with World of Tanks for many more years than here, and neither this or Wot has yet died. But hear me out for a bit.

 

First of all, queues are dominated by CVs and MM strugles to put up a match. On saturday evening, it took me close to 5 minutes to get a game, and early sunday afternoon only slightly less. Granted I haven't seal clubbed on low tiers lately, but I'm pretty sure matches were much faster to get before. Then when I got in the game, it's of course 2 CVs per side but not just that, 3 bots per side also. This leaves 7 non-CV players per side vs 2 CVs, before you take into account the mandatory afk and crashed players, which appear in every low tier game and most hightier ones also. No surprise the matches are mostly decided by which side has better CVs with winning side CVs racking up 3-5 kills vs 0-1 of losing side. In end of the match, it's not uncommon to see only CVs alive plus some afk BBs.

 

Now imagine you're a new player. AFAIK they have some kind of protected MM that prevents them from meeting experienced seal clubbers, so I don't know how much that makes the experience different. But suppose it's similar. You get through your tier 2's and eagerly enter tier 3. BOOM, 2 CVs per side, every game, making your individual effort meaningles since you just can't keep up with their damage numbers, or if they focus on you, can't stay alive. And you have to tolerate that for three tiers to get out of tier4 CV MM spread. OK, your AA does not get much better at tier 6 and you can face tier 8 CVs now, but my experience is that CVs are not that numerous on those tiers. How can anyone have the tolerance to keep playing through that hell?

 

You can't even pick a tech tree that would counter CVs because there is no such thing on any tier, especially low tiers. Even once legendary AA premium Yubari has been nerfed to the ground since no ship shall be impervious to the air scourge. On a favorable conditions (2Cvs and focusing on me half the match) I managed to shoot down 8 planes. Yes 8, not 18. Number of plane attacks prevented was a full 0. I did do a respectable 22k plane damage but what does it matter if it's spread so evenly that no planes get shot down?

 

Luckily most of us don't have to care really about tier4 CV balance since we're veterans who play mostly high tiers anyway. But how is the game going to stay alive if low tier experience is so horrible that it quite likely drives new players away when they reach tier 3?

 

tldr; WG won't ever admit it, but if they do nothing to the current CV situation, especially regarding tier 4 CVs, they are going to have major player retention issues with new players (if not having already).

[ThePopesHolyFinger]

Last night, and not for the first time, a T8 game with double CVs per side.
That's truly idiotic weegee, and pretty much why I'm about to return to non-premium.

M. von Recktoften?
Stop being stupid.

FDR?
Really, please stop doing stupid stuff

[Sunleader]

Funny enough. I find it much more Enjoyable to Play CV right now with the Bugs.

At least I actually have to pay attention to not waste my Planes xD

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

8 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Funny enough. I find it much more Enjoyable to Play CV right now with the Bugs.

At least I actually have to pay attention to not waste my Planes xD

Who could have thought that a challange in games is more fun then mindless farming training wheel style. O wait, a plethora of games made for decades 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

10 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Funny enough. I find it much more Enjoyable to Play CV right now with the Bugs.

At least I actually have to pay attention to not waste my Planes xD

There not only is barely a difference that can be felt when playing CV but exploits that one can use to completely ignore flak aka you don't even need to dodge it anymore. CV is as easy to play now as it was in the beginning of the rework its so broken. Even in CBs where everyone is in try hard blob AA positions its easy to have healthy squads in endgame. 

[UnterSeeBot]

34 minutes ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

There not only is barely a difference that can be felt when playing CV but exploits that one can use to completely ignore flak aka you don't even need to dodge it anymore. CV is as easy to play now as it was in the beginning of the rework its so broken. Even in CBs where everyone is in try hard blob AA positions its easy to have healthy squads in endgame. 

I don't know about that, on my end, I still have the following issues with 0.9.9.1 :

1. When scouting at start of battle, the spotted ships fail to render for upto 30 seconds, making quite impossible opprtunistic raids on sleepy/afk enemies. They appear on the minimap, not as "spotted" but as "previously located" (hollow icon).
2. When initially spotting an enemy, then commencing an attack, my client stutters. Subsequent attacks on the same target have no problem.
3. I hate the way Kaga's HE bombs drop since the update, I find it  harder to delete dds. (this is probably a good thing)
4. Obviously, flak remains feast or famine, either you hit a massive wall of flak that stretches horizon to horizon, or none at all, or dodge the pathetic single flak cloud,, or you press the exploit button and completely ignore the threat/ In any case it is broken.

I have faith in WG that none of the above will be fixed, if their 2 giga micro patch didn't fix anything..... I presume 0.9.10 will introduce some more juicy bugs.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Issue 1. and 2. don't exist for me for some reason and haven't really existed even before WG applied patches and I suspect my graphics being turned down to lowest possible to be why that is. 

 

3. No idea about Kaga DBs since I haven't played her for ages. Just not interesting to play her as she's quite boring. 

 

4. Yeah. The "Ignore all flak" thing makes that a non issue too now so whatever.

 

WG is trying since 2 years and it feels like they make more steps backwards than foward atm. But one thing is for sure... as a CV player after every patch there is something new to learn about... 

[Blogaugis]

21 hours ago, MixuS said:

I just started doing the Epoch campaign, and first stage mandates playing tiers 2-4. This has given me some indication that current CV situation might actually be killing the game slowly. Sure, plenty off doomsayers yell "the game is dying" all the time, and have done so with World of Tanks for many more years than here, and neither this or Wot has yet died. But hear me out for a bit.

 

First of all, queues are dominated by CVs and MM strugles to put up a match. On saturday evening, it took me close to 5 minutes to get a game, and early sunday afternoon only slightly less. Granted I haven't seal clubbed on low tiers lately, but I'm pretty sure matches were much faster to get before. Then when I got in the game, it's of course 2 CVs per side but not just that, 3 bots per side also. This leaves 7 non-CV players per side vs 2 CVs, before you take into account the mandatory afk and crashed players, which appear in every low tier game and most hightier ones also. No surprise the matches are mostly decided by which side has better CVs with winning side CVs racking up 3-5 kills vs 0-1 of losing side. In end of the match, it's not uncommon to see only CVs alive plus some afk BBs.

 

Now imagine you're a new player. AFAIK they have some kind of protected MM that prevents them from meeting experienced seal clubbers, so I don't know how much that makes the experience different. But suppose it's similar. You get through your tier 2's and eagerly enter tier 3. BOOM, 2 CVs per side, every game, making your individual effort meaningles since you just can't keep up with their damage numbers, or if they focus on you, can't stay alive. And you have to tolerate that for three tiers to get out of tier4 CV MM spread. OK, your AA does not get much better at tier 6 and you can face tier 8 CVs now, but my experience is that CVs are not that numerous on those tiers. How can anyone have the tolerance to keep playing through that hell?

 

You can't even pick a tech tree that would counter CVs because there is no such thing on any tier, especially low tiers. Even once legendary AA premium Yubari has been nerfed to the ground since no ship shall be impervious to the air scourge. On a favorable conditions (2Cvs and focusing on me half the match) I managed to shoot down 8 planes. Yes 8, not 18. Number of plane attacks prevented was a full 0. I did do a respectable 22k plane damage but what does it matter if it's spread so evenly that no planes get shot down?

 

Luckily most of us don't have to care really about tier4 CV balance since we're veterans who play mostly high tiers anyway. But how is the game going to stay alive if low tier experience is so horrible that it quite likely drives new players away when they reach tier 3?

 

tldr; WG won't ever admit it, but if they do nothing to the current CV situation, especially regarding tier 4 CVs, they are going to have major player retention issues with new players (if not having already).

I am not sure if those 4 tier CV captains are highly skilled... It seems a bit extreme to see CVs on the winning side to have that much success - In my experience, I typically do more damage when my team is losing. It is often just half-dead ships asking to be sunk, going for your base, that are more vulnerable due to losses in their AA emplacements.

I guess that it is mostly low tier inexperienced ship captains that don't know how to dodge an air attack.

 

There are also some differences in the way of play with German carriers - The targeting with rocket fighters on Rhein is quite obnoxious, if you include that it is AP rockets - you often deal little damage to the enemy. And if it is a destroyer? It is probably the safest to play DDs at these low tiers.

The game basically forces you to go together with someone, to increase the aircraft losses for the enemy, but I doubt that new players are... aware of that.

And considering that some low tier BBs don't even have AA on their stock versions - this further deepens the problem...

On the other hand - easy targets for a CV player to practice on...

 

About CV countering...

The other extreme example - I lost ~70 planes on my stock lexington, to a cruiser - with old rules, when strategy was invloved by commanding multiple squadrons on the minimap and having limited planes, I'd only be left with fighter planes . Got a couple of complains from that battle (I mean, my team or perhaps even the enemy, were right clicking on my name, and selecting report). "Your karma has been reduced!"

But yeah - basically, it's teamwork now... defending yourself from planes by being in a group.

 

Some might care - being so reluctant to spend free exp on stuff pretty much forces you to go in and take part in the action.  So far, I've found the British tier 4 CV to be most enjoyable with it's carpet bombing against DDs and single torpedo attacks against larger ships with quite impressive results. The worst being the German CVs with their obnoxious targeting and the lack of means to engage DDs.

 

Well, if warthunder manages to get CVs into the game with interesting ways to play, I'd say that World of Warships is going to have a hard time getting new players... WoWs only advantages would be broken submarines and weeb-friendly content (oh dear, those screaming voices that I tend to hear from time to time..! ).

[ForlornSailor]

30 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

When scouting at start of battle, the spotted ships fail to render for upto 30 seconds,

 

30 seconds render delay - you sure must be exaggerating, and a lot. If not, then please make a video of that and show this to us.

[UnterSeeBot]

9 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

30 seconds render delay - you sure must be exaggerating, and a lot. If not, then please make a video of that and show this to us.

it feels like centuries pass before enemy ships render so i can consider and attack run. Put it this way, I can scout one side of the map to the other before all spotted ships are rendered. I have grown grey hairs waiting.. Acorns sprout, grow into majestic oaks, then succumb after hundreds of years, before enemy ships render. Elves grow old!
I am sure my poetic description is more helpful than any video. But I will try to post a screenshot after my next game in a CV. (not today, maybe tomorrow)

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

2 hours ago, Blogaugis said:

But yeah - basically, it's teamwork now... defending yourself from planes by being in a group.

Please stop calling blobbing up 'teamwork'. 

[Sunleader]

3 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

There not only is barely a difference that can be felt when playing CV but exploits that one can use to completely ignore flak aka you don't even need to dodge it anymore. CV is as easy to play now as it was in the beginning of the rework its so broken. Even in CBs where everyone is in try hard blob AA positions its easy to have healthy squads in endgame. 

 

Thats because you guys use Exploits by Default.

But you should Remember.

I usually dont use them at all.

 

I dont Shorten Squads.

I dont use invulnearbility timers to jump into Blobs.

I dont use Speedboost Retreat.

I dont tap Speedboost for longer duration.

 

 

[surfer_gr]

this is fun????  12 bomb hits 62k damage ? really Wg ? stick your balanced   cv crap you know where !!! 32k damage on planes 7 shot down really what a joke

 

[Prophecy82]

I stumbeld across a CV (Lexi) while being in Yolo Emilio. 

Sadly torping him was out of the window, since he spotted me early and turned. Disengaging wasnt an Option, because he would have just pounded me over and over again. 

I managed to claim his pelt, but it cost me 80% of my HP. 

 

The thing is: Im still baffeld by the design choices: 

Lets forget the Aircrafts for a  Minute and only look at the Hull: 

 

- It cant detonate. 

- It practically cant burn/flood. 

- Its retardedly fast (32+ knots)

- It has BB-like HP-Pool.

- It has enough armor to cause ricochets on smaller caliber guns, not to mention deck-plating. 

- It can angle to protect its citadel. 

- It has decend (in case of Ger-CV T8+ good) Secondaries to fend off DDs. 

 

and that are only the advantages of the hull! 

 

I know that WG wants to eliminate CV-Sniping by other CVs... but why dont aply another ruleset when CV is attacking CV?

 

Fighting the hull only of those feels comletely unrewarding unless you are in a large cruiser or BB. 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

The rework must be someone's fetish there at WG. The BS they pull out of their arses to accomodate the smallest player segment in their player base is mind baffeling. It's so typically arrogant.

[Capra76]

1 hour ago, Prophecy82 said:

The thing is: Im still baffeld by the design choices: 

Lets forget the Aircrafts for a  Minute and only look at the Hull: 

 

- It cant detonate. 

- It practically cant burn/flood. 

- Its retardedly fast (32+ knots)

- It has BB-like HP-Pool.

 

Essentially it's WG's way of preventing CV sniping, which would basically make the other 22 ships in the game irrelevant when a good CV player met a baddy, although that said, when you look at the WR% of some of the top CV players, the other 22 ships in the game are irrelevant anyway.

 

Burning/flooding is because CV are exceptionally good at causing these effects, and thus would enable the sniping mentioned above.

[Prophecy82]

20 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Burning/flooding is because CV are exceptionally good at causing these effects, and thus would enable the sniping mentioned above.

 

I know, but why do other classes suffer the same "non-effects"? 

Its fine, when a CV cant burn/flood due to Aircraft attack (imo), but it should burn/flood like a BB by any other dmg source !

[Capra76]

6 minutes ago, Prophecy82 said:

 

I know, but why do other classes suffer the same "non-effects"? 

Its fine, when a CV cant burn/flood due to Aircraft attack (imo), but it should burn/flood like a BB by any other dmg source !

Presumably that would've meant extra coding and after 6 months of attempted balancing I think WG just gave up in the end.

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 minutes ago, Prophecy82 said:

Its fine, when a CV cant burn/flood due to Aircraft attack (imo), but it should burn/flood like a BB by any other dmg source !

Actually it does, and it also eats citadels like a cruiser when broadside. 

 

The thing is WG has given AUTOMATED damage control. 

CV-player himself is not allowed to do it, and cannot do anything about it. 

So, a CV uses the DCP immediately. If you set him on fire again, he WILL burn for a while.

Same with floodings and all that.

 

HOWEVER since WG automated it, CV have unlimited DCP parties.

 

And other CV can still attack the CV. Needs to beware that CV has the best AA of all. And fighters.

Then again... with crap like Hallands floating around, the other CV starts becoming a more attractive target... 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

51 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Essentially it's WG's way of preventing CV sniping, which would basically make the other 22 ships in the game irrelevant when a good CV player met a baddy, although that said, when you look at the WR% of some of the top CV players, the other 22 ships in the game are irrelevant anyway.

 

Burning/flooding is because CV are exceptionally good at causing these effects, and thus would enable the sniping mentioned above.

Sniping was an issue because carriers isolate themselves. They don't 'have' to be part of a task group to do their thing. So because WG designed carriers to still be effective when sailing alone, carrier players need a plethora of training wheels not to die alone, because carriers are not sailing in a blob like everyone else is supposed to right? You know the very thing carrier players always pound themselves at the chest for doing to everyone else killing isolated targets? 

 

This rework man, the designers that set up the core gameplay for them, are facepalm material.

[bakmaita]

Met this fair lad just now. Looking at his destruction ratio and classes he been pretty much playing, I'm sure them mighty spreadsheets are point on as is WG's pathetic business practice without any concern about game balance.

An obvious example of stat padding CV reroll, because WG encourages them to. Well done WG.

 

 

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