General CV related discussions.

[UnterSeeBot]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

If he had smoked all I would have needed to do is kill him when said smoke expires since his teammates were moving away from him anyway.

moving away from is not wholly true. AA was not far from his position. If he has smoked up and called for assistance, who knows, the Richthofen was close enough to spam fighter drops, the Kremlin, Henri and Bourgogne might have changed heading, the Shima might have made a more serious effort at dodging HE bomb drops, so many "could have done this and might have done that". Perhaps you would have got bored of camping smoke, (ok maybe not). The Shima was in a bad position the first place; clearly, and you were in a very good one (to sink him).

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

moving away from is not wholly true. AA was not far from his position. If he has smoked up and called for assistance, who knows, the Richthofen was close enough to spam fighter drops, the Kremlin, Henri and Bourgogne might have changed heading, the Shima might have made a more serious effort at dodging HE bomb drops, so many "could have done this and might have done that".

 

Turn around and show the Yamato broadside? You sure about that?

Since Shima AA is not capable of downing even fighters any enemy fighters could have been easily despawned.

Again, any maneuver you can do in a DD Midway DBs can match in an attack without accuracy loss.

[Pikkozoikum]

33 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

You can't see the future and you don't know that you're going to get blabbed in two strikes and you can't know if the carrier is coming for you or not. That's one of the flaws in the carrier design, you just have to ride your luck and hope he doesn't come for you, because when you do know if he comes for you, it's usually too late to do much about it. 

You could also translate it like:

I can't see in future and I don't know, if I get blapped by BBs, when I sail full broadside for a minute.

 

He Bombs have a vertical dispersion, so why would you stay aligned? Why would a cruiser stay broadside? That are mistakes and has nothing to di with fortune telling. It's about predictions and probilities. When I show broadside in a crusier, the proabiltiiy is higher to get blapped. So I try not to show broadside, when the situation is not controlled.

 

If I see HE Bombers moving straight towards me, then I maneuver to the side, so the dispersion pattern fits worth and the proabiltiy of hits is lower. If the CV didn't get rekt by AA; then I might consider smoke, or more maneuvering.

 

That Shimakaze did many mistakes in a row, just like the recent match with the Goliath, which moved in such a bad position, where he never would get out.

39 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

You are correct about not being able to fire your guns all the time or constantly rushing forwards, because sometimes you just can't and you need to recognize these situations. However, it is vital to maximise your participation in the game and every moment you don't, you're giving up influence. And back when the rework was still new and people were trying to figure out how to play DDs in the new environment, the answer was that you still had to be aggressive. It still holds true today, you might get completely ducked by the CV in one game, but overall you will pull ahead because of the game where the carrier doesn't go for you or doesn't get you. It's not exactly healthy gameplay design, but I never said it was.

The Shima could chose between play better an safer or dying FB. When I play DD; I would never ever play like him. To many people play too aggressive and a DD doesn't have to rush, especially not in a CV game. People often think, the first 2 minuts are important. Player have just no patient. You can give enemies an early advantage, as long you play the late better...

Idk if you know LoL; but it's same, people think that the first 5 mins are important for the game. When they go 0-3 they say "it's lost". Because they think they are the only importance in that game, and when they dont have full control over the game, then its lost. But its a team game

[Pikkozoikum]

19 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

moving away from is not wholly true. AA was not far from his position. If he has smoked up and called for assistance, who knows, the Richthofen was close enough to spam fighter drops, the Kremlin, Henri and Bourgogne might have changed heading, the Shima might have made a more serious effort at dodging HE bomb drops, so many "could have done this and might have done that". Perhaps you would have got bored of camping smoke, (ok maybe not). The Shima was in a bad position the first place; clearly, and you were in a very good one (to sink him).

Also he could move towards the allies, also the unicum CV has to spent his highly influencial time with keeping an eye on the DD and attack it later. Even getting 2 shotted early, or getting two shotted after a 3rd and 4th approach is a difference.

[UnterSeeBot]

9 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Also he could move towards the allies,

the dds track/wake suggested he may have been thinking just that (dir. Henri) But I'm no mind reader. If I were in that situation smoke, plead team for help (be ignored) rage at friendly cv, call @El2aZeR a cv noob (I wouldn't really), then as the enemy bombers would be visible circling (spotted by allies), wait for a break in their pattern and rush towards the Henri/Kremlin/Bourg bubble. I might be sunk anyway (and rage ctrl Q!), but the enemy CV would probably lose the entire squadron to allied AA, which would be better than nothing at all.

ofc the totally soul destroying nature of that poor dds gameplaying experience, is why I think CVs are inappropiate for WOWS, and that air power needs to be represented in game, some other way. it doesn't matter at a certain point that the DD made a mistake, there was no way he could have had fun in that encounter with the enemy CV. I don't mind losing, being sunk as long as I have a sense of "I went down fighting and I gave as good as I got", WG devs don't know/understand this expression.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, LoveZeppelin said:

the dds track/wake suggested he may have been thinking just that (dir. Henri) But I'm no mind reader. If I were in that situation smoke, plead team for help (be ignored) rage at friendly cv, call @El2aZeR a cv noob (I wouldn't really), then as the enmy bombers would be visible circling, wait for a break in their pattern and rush towards the Henri/Kremlin/Bourg bubble. I might be sunk anyway (and rage ctrl Q!), but the enemy CV would probably lose the entire squadron to allied AA, which would be better than nothing at all.

Yes, though I would slightly move with my allies from the beginning. Thats not a new tactic, you did that back then with DDs against RTS-CVs, especially in a Shimakaze... Don't forget, the ships had ~10% worse concleament, so it's even more important .

In most cases, the CV goes then for another target, before I'm spotted, but if not, I'm still broadside and a harder target, while multiple ships shoot at the Squadron, so he might get one less optimal drop off, which causes mostly none to lower dmg, the second drop will be impossible, because the planes have to fly above all ships and get destroyed.

I play every round in a DD like that and check, where the enemy CV is flying, if he is going for another side, I go a bit more aggresive and wait for the opportunity to use Torpdeos and cap

[UnderDuress]

3 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

the dds track/wake suggested he may have been thinking just that (dir. Henri) But I'm no mind reader. If I were in that situation smoke, plead team for help (be ignored) rage at friendly cv, call @El2aZeR a cv noob (I wouldn't really), then as the enmy bombers would be visible circling, wait for a break in their pattern and rush towards the Henri/Kremlin/Bourg bubble. I might be sunk anyway (and rage ctrl Q!), but the enemy CV would probably lose the entire squadron to allied AA, which would be better than nothing at all.

That’s probably the best outcome if the DD play it perfectly, DD still likely die, but the CV might lose most of a squadron and a bit more time.

Just not sure this is what PvP balance should be like.

 

[AndyHill]

8 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You could also translate it like:

I can't see in future and I don't know, if I get blapped by BBs, when I sail full broadside for a minute.

Except that you specifically can not say just that and that is one of the major differences between planes and ships. I know pretty much exactly where BBs are going to be a lot of the time and they are very sluggish in their movement, so there are hardly any surprises. And if a BB manages to pop up in a surprising location (unless there's a carrier in game in which case such moves are largely impossible) that's well played for him and gg for me. Planes zip around and over islands at insane speeds and even if you see them in one place it doesn't mean they won't appear in another at a moment's notice.

13 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

To many people play too aggressive and a DD doesn't have to rush, especially not in a CV game. People often think, the first 2 minuts are important. Player have just no patient. You can give enemies an early advantage, as long you play the late better...

The first two minutes are important and giving an early advantage is just giving an advantage which you have to compensate for in the late game. In this game the Shima got screwed, in the next two he will take the cap and win the game for his team, which means he made the right play. CVs just tend to punish people for making the right plays, but hey, that's just WG's design.

[El2aZeR]

22 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Yes, though I would slightly move with my allies from the beginning. Thats not a new tactic, you did that back then with DDs against RTS-CVs, especially in a Shimakaze

 

Except it was literally impossible for a RTS CV to attack you that early into the match due to initial service and launch times as well as slower planes.

Oh look, weird how I wasn't able to reach the enemy DD before he made it into the cap even if the enemy fighters hadn't been there:

 

 

Also weird how I can't go around killing everything and have to actually respect enemy AA ships. Thank god they fixed that in the rework. /s

[Pikkozoikum]

8 minutes ago, UnderDuress said:

Just not sure this is what PvP balance should be like.

Totally depends on the game. In a classcial first person shooter, no. Those should be mostly skill based. But this is a class-team-pvp game. Classes are different with different mechanics. So you can make some classes technically very uneven.

 

In some cases, world of warships is a "bit" like a Moba in terms of classes and balacing (balancing over values and stats, instead of realistic physics)

Not saying a carrier should be god-like, but there are games, where some players get the god-role in team-pvp. For exmaple shooters, where one is not an acutaly character on the battlefield but a commander who can spawn supplies and give commands. This commander is godlike, untochable for any player.

Or champions/heros in Mobas like Abathur/Yuumi, they can sit in base and/or attach to other champions, being immune.

 

Balancing should more likely happen between same classes. A Kremlin shouldn't be way stronger than a Yamato or Montana. In terms of different classes it's more important to look at the influence and impact. If it's fun to play against and if you have a good interaction. I know, some will say now no, but that's not what it's about now.

 

15 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Except that you specifically can not say just that and that is one of the major differences between planes and ships. I know pretty much exactly where BBs are going to be a lot of the time and they are very sluggish in their movement, so there are hardly any surprises. And if a BB manages to pop up in a surprising location (unless there's a carrier in game in which case such moves are largely impossible) that's well played for him and gg for me. Planes zip around and over islands at insane speeds and even if you see them in one place it doesn't mean they won't appear in another at a moment's notice.

It's fine, when a BB surprises someone, but not when a CV does. Hm.

Beside that, a DD can pretty good react to a CV, but if he goes behind the island without any intel about the early situation ,then it's his mistake. He can sail for 10 seconds more with the fleet and watch out. That Shima failed very hard.

When I see a squadron, then the Squadron wont see me, and I can position myself to make drop hard for none to lower dmg.

That Shima

-Rushed towards the island

-Restricted her own vision

-Away from any allies

-Aligning to the bombs, to make the best outcome easily for the CV

-Not using Smoke

-Moving slow.

 

There are like ~3 things he could do to prevent death. He did nothing, but made it easier.

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

 

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Except it was literally impossible for a RTS CV to attack you that early into the match due to initial service and launch times as well as slower planes.

 

How does that even matter? The RTS has tons of other broken mechanics and is more influencial. It was in the Hand of the Shima. He played bad, so he died

If that early strike is such a huge issue, then add an early launching timing? Easy solved.

Proper played, the Shima could have gone for the cap as well, but a bit more smart.

[UnterSeeBot]

45 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I play every round in a DD like that and check, where the enemy CV is flying, if he is going for another side, I go a bit more aggresive and wait for the opportunity to use Torpdeos and cap

in battle with cvs, if I am in a dd, I'll always pray for a gap 

In fact I was just trying to sink the enemy Midway with my Asashio, just now, ..

me now :

Spoiler

I dodged the HE bombs, but not the CVs team mates who secondaries which were unfortunately just in time/ Still :

this does show one think I dislike, normally a t8 dd that takes 60 k + dmg off a tier 10 capital ship (such as a bb) has a major influence on the battle. Except when the it is 60+k off an enemy CV, and I fail to sink it/ 

Come on WeeGee, at the very least a CV that has lost 80% of its hp, should suffer some sort of a handicap. Maybe perma steering loss?

the good news, we won anyway :

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

in battle with cvs, if I am in a dd, I'll always pray for a gap 

In fact I was just trying to sink the enemy Midway with my Asashio, just now, ..

me now :

  Reveal hidden contents

I dodged the HE bombs, but not the CVs team mates who were unfortunately just in time/ Still :

this does show one think I dislike, normally a t8 dd that takes 60 k + dmg off a tier 10 capital ship (such as a bb) has a major influence on the battle. Except when the it is 60+k off an enemy CV, and I fail to sink it/ 

As a DD, especially in Asashio, I never chase for kills. I always stay around the caps and drop from distance. With Asashio I focus on

-Can I smoke a Radarcruiser to support me

-Capping -> Shifting to other caps

-Spotting

 

The torps have enough range, that I can use them, even without going for a close engagement. So I can focus more on winning conditions

 

You took a big risk with the CV approach and you paid for it ^^

Also there are other classes. When you play Asashio and there is only 1 enemy DD, no radar, no CV. then the enemy DD damages you heavily but you destroy him somehow. Then the damage on you is also irrelevant, because from this point on, the Asashio can act even with 1 hp

[UnterSeeBot]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

You took a big risk with the CV approach and you paid for it ^^

I live for the thrills.

My ambition is to sink a Graf Zeppelin with Asashio's secondaries (there are problems with this, so I'd settle for a main gun kill)

I always play Asashio close to the enemy, if possible flanking them. Torps, and guns.

I am hopeless, 100% potatoe in dd vs dd fights, always have been, so I try to avoid them, and play according to what I am good at.

[El2aZeR]

32 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

This commander is godlike, untochable for any player.

 

The impact said commander has on the match is practically nonexistent which is quite typical for "untouchable" mechanics.

CVs however have the highest influence on the match by far.

Such a comparison only shows how broken CVs are right now.

 

32 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's fine, when a BB surprises someone, but not when a CV does. Hm.

 

Possibly because a BB has to actually get into position to do so and while that is the case cannot suddenly transition to the other side of the match whereas a CV ignores cover, concealment and in comparison to other classes can practically teleport. To even make such a comparison is once again at best intellectually dishonest.

 

32 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

When I see a squadron, then the Squadron wont see me, and I can position myself to make drop hard for none to lower dmg.

 

Which is ofc completely laughable since if you see a squad, that squad also knows where you are. How do you think I found that Shima?

 

32 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That Shima

-Rushed towards the island

-Restricted her own vision

-Away from any allies

-Aligning to the bombs, to make the best outcome easily for the CV

-Not using Smoke

-Moving slow.

 

Lets check these claims, shall we?
Rushing towards the island would imply a good move to make according to previous statements, no? After all apparently CVs are just as restricted by cover as surface ships, yet now suddenly it is a misplay.
Restricting vision is completely meaningless as I was spotted by the enemy CV going in, meaning he had more than enough advance warning. Not that that matters since any reaction he could have made would have been far too late as planes are far too fast. If he wanted to prevent such a a fate without taking any risks the only play to make would have been to stay afk in spawn.

Long range AA from allies was present in both attacks. It just didn't matter because long range AA might as well not exist.

Whether to align to bombs or not is completely meaningless as, again, Midway DBs can adjust without accuracy penalty. He also tried to juke the 2nd drop which is commonly recommended but in reality has no impact as i chose my initial attack vector in a way that it wouldn't have mattered whether he had kept turning or tried to juke.

If he had used smoke it still would have been a gigantic win on my part for which I have done practically nothing.

I'm not sure how much faster you expect a Shimakaze to go since that is its max speed in a turn especially after an engine kill.

 

So in reality it actually doesn't matter what he could have done. He could have only been dead or useless. There are no alternatives.

 

24 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

How does that even matter? The RTS has tons of other broken mechanics and is more influencial. It was in the Hand of the Shima. He played bad, so he died

If that early strike is such a huge issue, then add an early launching timing? Easy solved.

Proper played, the Shima could have gone for the cap as well, but a bit more smart.

 

Again, RTS was not more influential. You just keep ignoring everything that doesn't support your pathetic narrative.

Again, there was nothing the Shima could have done to be both useful and not die. Whereas this situation would have never even come up in RTS in the first place. Even if a RTS CV had been in the position to fly the strike, it wouldn't have been possible as long range AA was both more powerful and had more range. So much for "more broken", huh?

Do tell how the Shima could have gone for the cap without dying or having to practically be afk for the first few minutes and then have no battle influence for the rest of the match?

 

 

 

[AndyHill]

37 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's fine, when a BB surprises someone, but not when a CV does. Hm.

Yes, absolutely. BB is the slowest, least maneuverable class in the game with the worst concealment. When one of those manages to pop up in a useful, surprising location and starts wreaking havoc, the player has made a very good and difficult to pull off play. When 200kt island-hopping planes appear in a difficult to predict location and wreak havoc, the player has pressed "Battle" in a carrier. Spot the difference.

 

As for the other points, el2a already replied well enough so I won't bother. It might appear that the Shima made some mistakse (I would give broadside to the bombers at the very end myself), but that's mostly because when hunted by planes, ships don't really have any good options left.

29 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

In fact I was just trying to sink the enemy Midway with my Asashio, just now, ..

No need to feel bad, you were up against a real carrier specialist, who has 20k more average damage in his Midway compared to the second most damaging ship he plays (Kurf).

[Pikkozoikum]

24 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

Asashio's secondaries

Eh what, are you using the MGs? :D

[UnterSeeBot]

4 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Eh what, are you using the MGs? :D

secondary middle finger, hope they rage quit in disgust/

[Nibenay78]

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's fine, when a BB surprises someone, but not when a CV does. Hm.

I'll poop myself the day a Montana comes jumping over the mountain at 200knts with all guns loaded! No doubt!

[BLUB__BLUB]

13 hours ago, WarDax said:

No, alone, or at least not actively asking anyone else for help. 

 

I may try, and try, and try, I can be very persistent and utterly ignorant of my losses...  

Well I have been killed by DD, so it is definitely possible. But...

Usually I know when I am "short of a red DD", and then I know. I'll usually kill him, too. 

I had it such that I killed 3 DDs, a cruiser and a BB that all came for me. 4th DD got me. 

Buit we won, I cleaned up 3DDs, that cruiser, and farmed that BB and two others. 4th DD was the last living red. 

I killed him with my last-launched squad... 4 kills, a win and >100K damage. 

 

Why go and look for them... no need. 

[Gnolfus]

It's such a great feature that CV torps can break the rudder and engine on BBs. It's absolutely amazing having to burn your rep, or alternatively get hit while your rep is down. This feature is a good addition to the game, it would simply be too overpowered if the ship being attacked could manouver, too difficult for the CV player.

[Panocek]

6 hours ago, Gnolfus said:

It's such a great feature that CV torps can break the rudder and engine on BBs. It's absolutely amazing having to burn your rep, or alternatively get hit while your rep is down. This feature is a good addition to the game, it would simply be too overpowered if the ship being attacked could manouver, too difficult for the CV player.

Imagine battleships having actual counter in this game

[MadBadDave]

So  cv's are fixed are they ?.

 

T6-8 with 2 T8 cv's per side, thats a NO then.

 

WG instead of focussing on transformers you need to friggin transform the game, but hey were talking about a nation with about as much naval prowess as a wet turd.

 

is that supposed to be fun; worst T8 cruiser for AA even with fighter and def AA (also pointless), vs 2 T8 cvs ?.     You’ll also notice reds had oland (best AA in that match),  such fun “we’re here for you the gamers” rofl, nah for the rubbles !.

 

[Asakka]

1 hour ago, MadBadDave said:

WG instead of focussing on transformers you need to friggin transform the game, but hey were talking about a nation with about as much naval prowess as a wet turd.

Not the same dev team but go off i guess 

[BanzaiPiluso]

3 hours ago, MadBadDave said:

So  cv's are fixed are they ?.

 

T6-8 with 2 T8 cv's per side, thats a NO then.

 

WG instead of focussing on transformers you need to friggin transform the game, but hey were talking about a nation with about as much naval prowess as a wet turd.

 

is that supposed to be fun; worst T8 cruiser for AA even with fighter and def AA (also pointless), vs 2 T8 cvs ?.     You’ll also notice reds had oland (best AA in that match),  such fun “we’re here for you the gamers” rofl, nah for the rubbles !.

 

I have been playing Co-Ops for the last 3 weeks. So relaxing.