General CV related discussions.

[Pikkozoikum]

6 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

but I want examples of a unicum cv player wiping the floor with a unicum dder. This is what needs to be shown here, and to others. Maybe somebody could set up a duel, to see how long a unicum dder can survive vs a unicum cv player, in the Training Room. Because all we are showing ourselves, are subjective experiences of battles, which are easily shot down by other forum users. How many examples of the opposite have I shown here? Me in a dd sinking a cv - and the replies = "the cver was a potatoe" ok, fine, but then we need to all strive for greater objectivity.

We need to see examples : players of equal skill/ability level, face off in cv vs dd scenarios.

While I would like to see it, ithat would be still a setup in favor for the CV. The advantage of the CV is, that he is better against single targets. Combat situations are different and the goals are different. 

There was that 1vs1 ranked sprint. That would be a more proper 1vs1 setup. But here I would assume are BBs>CVs

[El2aZeR]

34 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

but I want examples of a unicum cv player wiping the floor with a unicum dder.

 

Happened just yesterday:

 

It's not even a 1vs1 as he is within the AA of the Kremlin, Bourg and Henry as the tracers clearly show. Not that that mattered ofc.

[UnterSeeBot]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Happened just yesterday:

thanks!

do you have a replay we can watch?

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

thanks!

do you have a replay we can watch?

 

This should be it.

20200916_203641_PASA110-Midway_19_OC_prey.wowsreplay

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, LoveZeppelin said:

well yeah, CVs have to be balanced for all levels of (in)competence, from tomatoe to deep shades of purple (this is especially true for premiums). It doesn't help balancing for one ability level, the power/influence curve needs to be stretched for all levels. Given the underlying game design for CVs gives them so much passive and potential power/influence, i am not sure this is possible.

As for skill gaps between CV players and others, I don't think it fair to use the argument of a unicum CVer deleting a tomatoe DDer, examples should at the very least, (unless for humurous purposes) compare similar player skill/ability levels. e.g unicum CVer vs unicum DDer.

Yes, CVs will always screw someone over, but more or less effectively. But let's be honest, some players make themselves easy targets : Khaba rushes cap at start of battle, and then STOPS!* I mean these sorts of players would probably be sunk very quickly by another warship or have negligible influence on battle outcome anyway.

 

 

edit : *I did this once

One thing you could balance is the dispersion penalty of DBs (only AP or both types), when turning. RNG is mostly favoring bad players and handicaps good players. So a good player can make more use of those CVs, who can turn and aim properly.

I personally often forget, that this exist, because I played mostly Hakuryu, which has a penatly, or Kaga, which has HE bombs.

[DFens_666]

42 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

but I want examples of a unicum cv player wiping the floor with a unicum dder. This is what needs to be shown here, and to others. Maybe somebody could set up a duel, to see how long a unicum dder can survive vs a unicum cv player, in the Training Room. Because all we are showing ourselves, are subjective experiences of battles, which are easily shot down by other forum users. How many examples of the opposite have I shown here? Me in a dd sinking a cv - and the replies = "the cver was a potatoe" ok, fine, but then we need to all strive for greater objectivity.

We need to see examples : players of equal skill/ability level, face off in cv vs dd scenarios.

 

1v1 in the training room dont say much, as they are very disconnected from the normal game. A CV attacking a DD is not the only one, which the DD has to keep track off. Since the CV can spot the DD for his team, the DD can also expect to get shot at, while in a 1v1 this doesnt happen.

In a random game, seeing a good CV player on the enemy team i would just alter my own playstyle so he wont attack me. But that removes my influence even if he wont attack me, so the CV already won that one. F.e. if a no-CV game, you could park your DM at an island for radar cover on the nearest cap. You try that with a CV that has AP bombs and you die. So even if the CV will not attack you now, he could do it every time you park at that island, essentially making that island useless. He doesnt even need to be that good of a CV player to flush you out of there, and since you dont know what he is capable of, using a valid tactic is made invalid by the presence of a CV.

Not killing someone doesnt mean, that someone has the ability to play the same way regardless if there was a CV present or not.

 

44 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Or the DD plays around the CV, caps, when the CV is busy -> smoke and out, winning by caps and map control. If a good CV player goes for a good DD player and the DD player keeps the CV player busy enough, according to people that CV is "broken influencial" then it's a win for the DD: Because he kept the most influencial ship busy to win the match. If CV and the target make themself useless because of passive play / baiting the CV, so that nobody of them can do anything, then the CV is the loser. 

 

And if there is a radar Cruiser, you can forget about that. You might be able to bait the radar, but the CV shouldnt be busy for more than 2 minutes (baiting radar -> wait till radar is off -> enter cap with smoke -> get the cap)

[Pikkozoikum]

17 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

thanks!

do you have a replay we can watch?

Yesterday I one shotted with my first salvo a Goliath 53k, then the second Salvo hit a Yamato 40k. ~100k dpm you could say. (260k in total at the end. And it was ranked, so only 7 ships)

 

I mean lucky hits happen, especially, when people stay aligend to make it even easier. (Broadside showing to a BB, Aligned to DBs etc)

[Pikkozoikum]

8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

And if there is a radar Cruiser, you can forget about that. You might be able to bait the radar, but the CV shouldnt be busy for more than 2 minutes (baiting radar -> wait till radar is off -> enter cap with smoke -> get the cap)

Well, if multiple counter plays hit a single player, then it's obviously not fair. How would it be fair, if a Shima plays against a Hydro DD and a Radar cruiser? ^^

I mean we could remove Radar :D I prefer actually CV over Radar, when I play DD. The Radar-interaction is way more annyoing, then the CV interaction for me.

 

I think when they implement that Concealment change, it will change a lot for DDs. For playing a DD, it will be awesome, but for playing a BB, oof, no good, when DDs become more influence :D

[UnterSeeBot]

53 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

This should be it.

20200916_203641_PASA110-Midway_19_OC_prey.wowsreplay

 

 

So indeed, you did wipe the floor with this enemy Shima, with 2 He bomb drops, within the opening minutes of the battle (first blood). Basically you won the battle in my favourite "CV" way, at the start by neutralizing enemy dds/obtaining a dd advantage. But more effectively and efficiently than I would usually manage.

But... the enemy Shima, in a battle with CVs; was not within any allied AA range (as shown in the minimap), did not deploy (or attempt to) smoke, and was at reduced speed when you hit him (squarely and very nicely I must say), made minila "jUstDodGe" efforts as seen in the screenshots with the dds wake. Your enemy "unicum" dd was not a difficult target, indeed, you were on your 1st scouting run, and you saw the golden opportunity, (which you took). The enemy (33 battle unicum dd)  dd made a rookie mistake.

I think really this is why we need a training room set up of equally able players. Your target, while a decent player, only has 30 battles in a Shima, and no more than 60 battles in any individual dd. I dare say you have more than 60 battles in  your Midway?

 

43 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

1v1 in the training room dont say much, as they are very disconnected from the normal game. A CV attacking a DD is not the only one, which the DD has to keep track off. Since the CV can spot the DD for his team, the DD can also expect to get shot at, while in a 1v1 this doesnt happen.

but what is a normal game? Random games are truly random, and subjective experiences. At least in a training room we can reduce/eliminate unwanted variables to a one on one context, maybe try a best of 3 encounters.

35 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I mean lucky hits happen,

they do, which is why a training room setup is the only way to get some sort of objective answer stripped of the "lucky".

 

[AndyHill]

4 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

But... the enemy Shima, in a battle with CVs; was not within any allied AA range (as shown in the minimap), did not deploy smoke, and was at reduced speed when you hit him (squarely and very nicely I must say). Your enemy "unicum" dd was not a difficult target, indeed, you were on your 1st scouting run, and you saw the golden opportunity, (which you took). The enemy (33 battle unicum dd)  dd made a rookie mistake.

The dd player is actually a unicum level carrier player, so he knows best how to fight against one, right?

[DFens_666]

3 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

but what is a normal game? Random games are truly random, and subjective experiences. At least in a traiing room we can reduce/eliminate unwanted variables to a one on one context, maybe try a best of 3 encounters. 

 

Because the DD doesnt play 1v1 when a CV attacks him. Whether the CV plays a 1v1 in training room or 12v12 random game doesnt actually matter much.

In a 1v1 there are no other ships attacking the DD because... there are none. While in a random game, there are 11 potential other ships shooting the DD while the CV is spotting/attacking him. So the circumstances are entirely different. In a 1v1, the DD can sit in his smoke without being radared, while this might happen in a random battle. But at the same time, the CV can also just sit over the smoke since there is only 1 target to attack, while in a random battle, he can choose 11 other targets till the smoke runs out.

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

28 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

1v1 in the training room dont say much, as they are very disconnected from the normal game. A CV attacking a DD is not the only one, which the DD has to keep track off. Since the CV can spot the DD for his team, the DD can also expect to get shot at, while in a 1v1 this doesnt happen.

but what is a normal game? Random games are truly random, and subjective experiences. At least in a traiing room we can reduce/eliminate unwanted variables to a one on one context, maybe try a best of 3 encounters.

21 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I mean lucky hits happen,

they do, which is why a training room setup is the only way to get some sort of objective answer stripped of the "lucky".

The random battles are that, what is realistic and what is happening, in a training room you have artificial  situations. You can only "test" specific factors. How long a DD would survive against a CV.

A good player will survive longer, a bad player less longer. And with good player I mean a player who is playing properly and not getting nuked by not doing anything.

 

The thing is, that AA is a group effect against the CV, a unique mechanic, that only influences the CV. So 1vs1 tests are kinda weird, when the is a group-mechanic relation.

It's like playing a Moba and testing Assassines and Supporter in 1vs1 situations

[UnterSeeBot]

8 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

The dd player is actually a unicum level carrier player, so he knows best how to fight against one, right?

it is a mixed bag, including some RTS, very good 80 battle rework Midway WR but meh dmg and ok PR. But that is besides the point, in the example that @El2aZeR provides, the enemy dd was not that experienced in dds, and did make some evident mistakes (I could have added, a dd in a battle with CVs should wait to see which direction the enemy cv is scouting 1st too, unless they are ready and confident enough to evade a CV air attack)

[UnterSeeBot]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

The random battles are that, what is realistic and what is happening, in a training room you have artificial  situations. You can only "test" specific factors. How long a DD would survive against a CV.

true, but why is nobody using the training room to back up their assertions? We need to test specific factors to exclude the arbritary and the luck, to advance any argument on this topic, in a serious manner. if not everything anyone says here, is too easily torn apart with a "but .."

[Pikkozoikum]

6 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

The dd player is actually a unicum level carrier player, so he knows best how to fight against one, right?

If you watch the replay, then you see his mistakes (like ~4 mistakes). LoveZeppelin also explained those mistakes.

 I assume, that he has not much idea about DD for some reason or wasn't paying attention, that a CV player was around. Maybe he also just had "wrong" experience against CVs as DD, that he never got attacked in any match so far. Idk, could be same reason. Even good players make derp moves.

 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The thing is, that AA is a group effect against the CV, a unique mechanic, that only influences the CV. So 1vs1 tests are kinda weird, when the is a group-mechanic relation.

 

And the reality of gameplay shows that said "unique mechanic" doesn't work one way or another.

 

21 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

But... the enemy Shima, in a battle with CVs; was not within any allied AA range (as shown in the minimap), did not deploy (or attempt to) smoke, and was at reduced speed when you hit him (squarely and very nicely I must say), made minila "jUstDodGe" efforts as seen in the screenshots with the dds wake. Your enemy "unicum" dd was not a difficult target, indeed, you were on your 1st scouting run, and you saw the golden opportunity, (which you took). The enemy (33 battle unicum dd)  dd made a rookie mistake.

 

And here lies the crux of the issue.

Lets assume the DD had actually smoked. That still gives my DD the cap since the enemy CV was clearly too incompetent to kill him (in theory at least, my DD teammate ofc did not take the opportunity because.. reasons) and thus puts me into a winning and him into a losing position.

If he had stayed within the long range AA of all his teammates I would have still gotten off two drops and killed him.

If he had stayed within the mid-close range AA of his teammates I would have once again obtained cap superiority and he would have been completely worthless to his team.

If he had used WASD then I would have simply used WASD to follow his maneuvers which I can do in a Midway without accuracy penalty.

 

Thus everything he could have done would have either had no impact or would have been a mistake. Which is why against a CV you can only either lose or lose harder. There is no practical situation in which you can actually obtain an advantage.

[AndyHill]

4 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

it is a mixed bag, including some RTS, very good 80 battle rework Midway WR but meh dmg and ok PR. But that is besides the point, in the example that @El2aZeR provides, the enemy dd was not that experienced in dds, and did make some evident mistakes (I could have added, a dd in a battle with CVs should wait to see which direction the enemy cv is scouting 1st too, unless they are ready and confident enough to evade a CV air attack)

I actually watched the replay now and he is basically doing what he can, that is what it looks like when a DD just dodges someone who knows how to bomb. Slowing down might have thrown off a potato CV, in this case I would've just shown the CV my side and let the RNG do what it does. However, when a DD goes passive in any way he's already giving the reds an advantage, so that's not what you need to do. Now don't take this the wrong way, but from stats it's rather obvious that whatever the targeted player does in his DDs provides typically much better results than your DD play - which doesn't mean he wouldn't make mistakes in single games like we all do.

 

As for AA, he was right on the edge of the AA range of nearby ships so that the CV had to enter their long range AA when attacking, unfortunately that's just not good enough and if you really want to take advantage of your friends' AA, you'd need to be 3-4km away from them, which is pretty unfeasible in reality.

[DFens_666]

10 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If you watch the replay, then you see his mistakes (like ~4 mistakes). LoveZeppelin also explained those mistakes.

 I assume, that he has not much idea about DD for some reason or wasn't paying attention, that a CV player was around. Maybe he also just had "wrong" experience against CVs as DD, that he never got attacked in any match so far. Idk, could be same reason. Even good players make derp moves.

 

Should he expect to be targeted by HE bombs, if (just guessing) >90% of the CV players dont attack DDs with them? I think ive seen more CVs attack DDs with AP bombs than with HE bombs Atleast lately, it was rather common in the beginning.

Pretty much what i just wrote in the topic i just opened: Doesnt matter what the CV does, you have to alter your game 100% all the time because you can never know what he is doing. I assume once he realized that erazer actually attacks him, that it was too late to do anything, and getting stripped half your health with one drop it was GG and he could just roll over and die to make it end faster.

[AndyHill]

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If you watch the replay, then you see his mistakes (like ~4 mistakes). LoveZeppelin also explained those mistakes.

El2a already pretty much answered this above so I won't go deeper into it (and I already did as well in my reply to Love).

12 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I assume, that he has not much idea about DD for some reason or wasn't paying attention, that a CV player was around. Maybe he also just had "wrong" experience against CVs as DD, that he never got attacked in any match so far. Idk, could be same reason. Even good players make derp moves.

I don't think that this counts as shaming even though he is not very experienced, but here are his stats in DD and CV:

[UnterSeeBot]

16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

my DD teammate ofc did not take the opportunity because.. reasons

16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Thus everything he could have done would have either had no impact or would have been a mistake.

He could have survived, and played area denial, until other opportunities arose. Still afloat he still represnted a potential threat, which you and the rest of your team would have been forced to consider. Afloat he represented battle points (30?). Losing a cap in the 1st few minutes of a game is sure, not good, but it is not match losing levels of not good. Losing a dd in the opening 2 minutes of a battle is in 90% of cases, "Game Over." Even an AFK dd player is worth more afloat to their team than sunk. There is plenty of could have done this and might have done that (by you, me and other critics) but that's the problem with these examples, hence Training Room. BTW I am not a unicum Shima (or dd player) player, and only have one battle in mine. But I'd make myself available as a training room target (i'm sure you could find more interesting/capable players) if required.

[UnterSeeBot]

10 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

El2a already pretty much answered this above so I won't go deeper into it (and I already did as well in my reply to Love).

I don't think that this counts as shaming even though he is not very experienced, but here are his stats in DD and CV:

Everyone can visit the stats to see the breakdown. 

200+ battles in RTS Ryujo for example with a 70% WR! The point is, it is a mixed picture, (maybe an alt account too?) Looking at global stats, is misleading. Look for 100 + battle stats in the ships in question, offers a more reliable view.

[Pikkozoikum]

 

11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Should he expect to be targeted by HE bombs, if (just guessing) >90% of the CV players dont attack DDs with them? I think ive seen more CVs attack DDs with AP bombs than with HE bombs Atleast lately, it was rather common in the beginning.

He should have expected that. When I play Kaga, I go with HE bombs after DDs, when I see them perfectly aligned or in a bad position. When I play DD, I always pay attention to the planes, if they go into my direction or not. I see rockets -> bow in. I see bombers -> broadside. I see TBs -> bow in.

 

Even if the first mistake was unavoidable for some reason. He kinda slowed down, but didn't smoke. Instead he aligns with not full speed for the second drop. That was just bad :D

 

17 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Pretty much what i just wrote in the topic i just opened: Doesnt matter what the CV does, you have to alter your game 100% all the time because you can never know what he is doing. I assume once he realized that erazer actually attacks him, that it was too late to do anything, and getting stripped half your health with one drop it was GG and he could just roll over and die to make it end faster. 

He did huge mistakes like the Goliath in my game, pushed a bit too fast, showed broadside - boom 53k Shikishima shell. I wouldn't say now, that Shikishima is so op and he had no chance...

 

 

22 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

I actually watched the replay now and he is basically doing what he can, that is what it looks like when a DD just dodges someone who knows how to bomb. Slowing down might have thrown off a potato CV, in this case I would've just shown the CV my side and let the RNG do what it does. However, when a DD goes passive in any way he's already giving the reds an advantage, so that's not what you need to do.

Where is the advantage for dying to 2 drops? You don't give the enemy an advantage, when you "counter" the first strike. The alternative would be, that the CV doesn't hit the Shima, because RNG+Maneuvers. I notice that often in Clan battles, but also in Randoms, that people think, they have to do something all the time, but no, if that costs their life, then it's not an advantage.

When I play a flanking cruiser, and the enemies are all on that side, then I don't keep shoting just to get deleted in seconds. Then I try do shoot only now and then to distract and bait, but I go more passive, or even full passive, if my situation is bad.

The shima was in a very bad situation, so passivtiy was nessecary to win. Beside that, it was just one thing, if he would keep going forwad, he still could at least try his others option, but he made it just easier.

[AndyHill]

I'm not going to go deeply into someone's stats and the account does look a bit odd, it's either a second account or the player is very talented. In any case, he does have 80 Midway games with unicum stats and his T10 DD stats are near-unicum level at about 100 battles, so he is definitely not a potato in a DD or a CV. 

[AndyHill]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Where is the advantage for dying to 2 drops? You don't give the enemy an advantage, when you "counter" the first strike. The alternative would be, that the CV doesn't hit the Shima, because RNG+Maneuvers. I notice that often in Clan battles, but also in Randoms, that people think, they have to do something all the time, but no, if that costs their life, then it's not an advantage.

You can't see the future and you don't know that you're going to get blabbed in two strikes and you can't know if the carrier is coming for you or not. That's one of the flaws in the carrier design, you just have to ride your luck and hope he doesn't come for you, because when you do know if he comes for you, it's usually too late to do much about it.

 

You are correct about not being able to fire your guns all the time or constantly rushing forwards, because sometimes you just can't and you need to recognize these situations. However, it is vital to maximise your participation in the game and every moment you don't, you're giving up influence. And back when the rework was still new and people were trying to figure out how to play DDs in the new environment, the answer was that you still had to be aggressive. It still holds true today, you might get completely ducked by the CV in one game, but overall you will pull ahead because of the game where the carrier doesn't go for you or doesn't get you. It's not exactly healthy gameplay design, but I never said it was.

[El2aZeR]

40 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

He could have survived, and played area denial, until other opportunities arose. Still afloat he still represnted a potential threat, which you and the rest of your team would have been forced to consider. Afloat he represented battle points (30?). Losing a cap in the 1st few minutes of a game is sure, not good, but it is not match losing levels of not good. Losing a dd in the opening 2 minutes of a battle is in 90% of cases, "Game Over." Even an AFK dd player is worth more afloat to their team than sunk.

 

Which, again, doesn't change the fact that everything he could have done would leave me at an advantage and him at a disadvantage. There is no need to consider a DD that is hugging their teammates because by default that DD is useless. If he had smoked all I would have needed to do is kill him when said smoke expires since his teammates were moving away from him anyway.

 

Also implying that retaking a cap is possible against an actually skilled CV player and will not result in excessive game-ending losses. If you watched the replay in its entirety you've seen what happens.

 

29 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The shima was in a very bad situation, so passivtiy was nessecary to win.

 

Ah, so losing the cap advantage early on while being completely worthless to your team is "winning" nowadays.

Sure dude.