General CV related discussions.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

When I played my Hayate game with that screenshot, he only got one broadside to me.

You mean, he was too tomato to turn so he'd get your broadside every time?

I even make that move on a T10 dakka-DD when in a T8 CV... and those buggers really HAVE dakka, Hayate...well... no.

This is "skill gap". And I'm not unicum by a loooooong shot. 

 

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But well, I didn't payed too much attention and also didn't wanted to show broadside to the Smolensk, who was firig at me.

Wise decision... 

 

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But I survived and did a lot in that game. With RTS, I would probably die after the first TB cross drop. The differences are huge.

You are comparing RTS torps to rockets here. It took (some) skill to set up a cross-drop... 

But yes, indeed RTS (skilled) crossdrop would have finished you off. 

But a Hayate, well, if you are ever in Hayate and meet me on the reds, you'll not live long either. 

And I could hardly pull off a crossdrop in RTS, really. 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You mean, he was too tomato to turn so he'd get your broadside every time?

I even make that move on a T10 dakka-DD when in a T8 CV... and those buggers really HAVE dakka, Hayate...well... no.

This is "skill gap". And I'm not unicum by a loooooong shot.  

I was always turning with him. Those planes need to attack from a distance, thus they have a radius they have to fly around, which is very obvious to observe. So whil he needs a few seconds to turn around, the DD can turn as well. He could spent more time unti lhe would get a weak spot, but that would cost more time -> less dpm. Though missing of course costed even more dpm, but thats not what players generally expect. Nobody attacks with the intention to fail.

 

4 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You are comparing RTS torps to rockets here. It took (some) skill to set up a cross-drop... 

But yes, indeed RTS (skilled) crossdrop would have finished you off. 

But a Hayate, well, if you are ever in Hayate and meet me on the reds, you'll not live long either. 

And I could hardly pull off a crossdrop in RTS, really. 

Against Hayate it should quite easy to cross drop. I guess we had not sluggish DDs like Hayate back then at RTS times? Should be very easy to kill DDs like Hayate with RTS. Also even an automated crossdrop should be more than enough, at least with the Hakus 12 TBs. But then I was watching a video, where Femennenly said, cross dropping is quite easy and showed in the video, how she killed a DD :3

Sure, it can fail, but then again, people talk about, that it is only in the hands of a CV in case of the Rework... what is it then with RTS? :D

[BLUB__BLUB]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

I was always turning with him. Those planes need to attack from a distance, thus they have a radius they have to fly around, which is very obvious to observe. So whil he needs a few seconds to turn around, the DD can turn as well. He could spent more time unti lhe would get a weak spot, but that would cost more time -> less dpm. Though missing of course costed even more dpm, but thats not what players generally expect. Nobody attacks with the intention to fail.

Yes that's smart tactics from you. Nevertheless it only worked because... well... 

Also, I do sometimes "attack to fail", usually with torps - so my divmates get his nice fat broadside...

 

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

Against Hayate it should quite easy to cross drop. I guess we had not sluggish DDs like Hayate back then at RTS times? Should be very easy to kill DDs like Hayate with RTS. Also even an automated crossdrop should be more than enough, at least with the Hakus 12 TBs. But then I was watching a video, where Femennenly said, cross dropping is quite easy and showed in the video, how she killed a DD :3

Well, my problem with RTS was more like, it didn't always do what I wanted when I pressed the button. 

Meanwhile my PC also has evolved... lately some stutters but usually 100+FPS. Not back then... 

I was able to do a crossdrop but most times I FF-ed it up, as did most CV players. 

 

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

Sure, it can fail, but then again, people talk about, that it is only in the hands of a CV in case of the Rework... what is it then with RTS? :D

With RTS, the auto-drop actually assured some level of damage even if you were crap. 

Current Reeework... enlarged the skillgap, because now you have to drop stuff yourself. 

And some can't even get their torps straight, or get the reticule to tighten. More skillgap. 

 

Must say it took me some practice to get all 3 torps to hit on Ark Royal. 

I still FF-up about 50% of the drops with Kaga, 4th torp usually missing target (unless he's dumb). 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I remember a game, where a good CV player went for me the whole game long, only 1 or maybe 2 Strikes where not against me. I died as last ship and not from the CV. Now remember  how it was in RTS against IJN BBs. How long does a BB survive that? ;)

I remember RTS games, where I got more or less dev striked in a BB, and also where I dev striked BBs as CV. So the BBs are actually the winner in the CV rework. The floods dont hurt that much, CV DPM is weaker

 

How does that answer make any sense?

So we were talking about, why not getting devstriked by a BB is different to getting attacked by CV, and your answer is "back in the old days, BBs got devstriked by CVs"

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Ask CV players, I'm an allrounder. =)

 

Since you also play CVs and dont seem to understand the difference, i ask you.

Maybe we should make this more clear:

BB vs Stalingrad. Stalingrad can sit bow on to BB, resulting in minor damage. If i choose not to show broadside, risk of me getting citadelled is like 0,1%, as it might happen due to some weird WG brainfart coding. The BB cant physically turn my ship to, or warp over to shoot my citadel. If the BB wants to flank me, i have several minutes to alter my position, or just hide behind an island.

CV vs Stalingrad. Stalingrad turns like a brick. Planes fly with 200kts around my ship, can compensate for angle of attack even while dropping. Results in up to 20k damage at my citadel which i cant heal properly. Or just take the same with AP rockets.

I can work around the BB not deleting me with one salvo. I cant work around the CV getting the perfect drop. If he doesnt get a perfect drop, he is incompetent. In one scenario its the one being attacked who has a say in how much damage he receives. In the other scenario, its only the attacker who decides how much damage he can deal.

Lets even forget RNG, which often favours CVs ontop of that.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes that's smart tactics from you. Nevertheless it only worked because... well... 

Also, I do sometimes "attack to fail", usually with torps - so my divmates get his nice fat broadside... 

Though he wasn't that much of a potato, I don't remembe,r but I guess he had 55% total WR

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well, my problem with RTS was more like, it didn't always do what I wanted when I pressed the button. 

Meanwhile my PC also has evolved... lately some stutters but usually 100+FPS. Not back then... 

I was able to do a crossdrop but most times I FF-ed it up, as did most CV players. 

They overall changed graphics, I didn't noticed any difference between surface ships and CV so far. I mean there will be a difference, but not sure if the performance difference is that large.

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

With RTS, the auto-drop actually assured some level of damage even if you were crap. 

Current Reeework... enlarged the skillgap, because now you have to drop stuff yourself. 

And some can't even get their torps straight, or get the reticule to tighten. More skillgap. 

You might have a bit larger skill gap, but with RTS you had more influnece. So the instead of comparing skill gap vs skill gap, you have to take into account, what the good CV player did with the skill gap - he decimated the other CV player ;)

So you trade the autodrop for the annihilation of other CV players. Just think about it how much total dmg in average the old RTS CV had and although the better CV players destroyed all the worse CV players aircrafts.

So you could also say, skill gap is tiny bit larger, but influnece lower

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Must say it took me some practice to get all 3 torps to hit on Ark Royal. 

I still FF-up about 50% of the drops with Kaga, 4th torp usually missing target (unless he's dumb). 

I neither often hit all 4 torps with Kaga, but that also depends on ship and ships movement etc.

[WarDax]

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

2) RTS-lovers, who never wanted this design, no matter if it's good or bad.

That would probably be me. As I have stated before, I am in the game for surface battle and that does exclude CV. It might exclude submarines as well, but so far I haven't seen those having such an impact on the game, the little time they were available.

[Pikkozoikum]

58 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

How does that answer make any sense?

So we were talking about, why not getting devstriked by a BB is different to getting attacked by CV, and your answer is "back in the old days, BBs got devstriked by CVs"

Ah, I missunderstood something there, though I already talked about that, that A BB still can do huge dmg, no matter what the enemies is doing. It's mostly in the hands of the BB and of his RNG. If he misses then it's mostly his aim or rng. Or he was way to far away.

 

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

BB vs Stalingrad. Stalingrad can sit bow on to BB, resulting in minor damage. If i choose not to show broadside, risk of me getting citadelled is like 0,1%, as it might happen due to some weird WG brainfart coding. The BB cant physically turn my ship to, or warp over to shoot my citadel. If the BB wants to flank me, i have several minutes to alter my position, or just hide behind an island.

CV vs Stalingrad. Stalingrad turns like a brick. Planes fly with 200kts around my ship, can compensate for angle of attack even while dropping. Results in up to 20k damage at my citadel which i cant heal properly. Or just take the same with AP rockets.

I can work around the BB not deleting me with one salvo. I cant work around the CV getting the perfect drop. If he doesnt get a perfect drop, he is incompetent. In one scenario its the one being attacked who has a say in how much damage he receives. In the other scenario, its only the attacker who decides how much damage he can deal.

Lets even forget RNG, which often favours CVs ontop of that.

Pretty bad example imo. You can reduce the dmg of a CV just by grouping. Can you reduce the dmg of a BB by grouping? This aspect totally misses here.

Also what is the strength of a CV? Isolated targets. You go now with an isolated target example and pick a ship, that is good against bowing in against a BB. So it obviously favors the CV. But you can do that with every ship,

Why not picking DD vs Shikishima and CV vs Shikishima. In a 1vs1 game mode, the Shikishima will mostly win against the CV, if not skill gap is huge, but probably not against a DD.

Otherwise, play SS, when they are implemented, then you are fine against any CV and will win all the 1vs1s ;)

[DFens_666]

18 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You can reduce the dmg of a CV just by grouping.

 

Didnt know that 3 cits deal less damage if im in a group of ships compared to if im alone...

 

19 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Pretty bad example imo.

My example atleast includes a ship, which supposedly is countered by one, but a counter to the other (BB > Cruiser / Cruiser > CV)

Your example is: A ship should lose to its counter faster than to the CV (DD > BB). Alltho a CV should actually counter BBs, but i think we can forget about that one. Atleast in theory, WG thinks Cruisers have good AA

 

22 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Why not picking DD vs Shikishima and CV vs Shikishima. In a 1vs1 game mode, the Shikishima will mostly win against the CV, if not skill gap is huge, but probably not against a DD.

 

That really depends on the gamemode: Objective based? Maybe. Not objective based? CV can just run away indefinetely, so its just who can kill the BB faster.

Alltho a DD might have problems in an objective based 1v1 aswell, as he is forced into the cap, while the CV can reset the BB, or even severly damage him prior to actually reaching the cap.

[UnterSeeBot]

18 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

. Atleast in theory, WG thinks Cruisers have good AA

(

[WarDax]

The last few randoms I have focused on CV, since many leave CV's alone by the map border or some remote island or piece of coast you can often circle around and get to them.

In Mainz I had no chance, planes, and some hits from other ships, took me out before causing enough damage or getting close enough for torps, but I just sunk one with Roon and boy it felt GOOD. Yes I was killed a few minutes after, but at least I took down a CV. Does this affect my support for the other players? Yes, sure it does, to some extent, but once I am within range of the damn CV it will focus mostly on me, so that leaves them rest to surface battle. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Though he wasn't that much of a potato, I don't remembe,r but I guess he had 55% total WR

Well, 55% total isn't saying much, it includes divisions and everything else. 

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

They overall changed graphics, I didn't noticed any difference between surface ships and CV so far. I mean there will be a difference, but not sure if the performance difference is that large.

I did. Surface ships at least reacted when I pressed a button. 

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You might have a bit larger skill gap, but with RTS you had more influnece. So the instead of comparing skill gap vs skill gap, you have to take into account, what the good CV player did with the skill gap - he decimated the other CV player ;)

So you trade the autodrop for the annihilation of other CV players. Just think about it how much total dmg in average the old RTS CV had and although the better CV players destroyed all the worse CV players aircrafts.

So you could also say, skill gap is tiny bit larger, but influnece lower

Mwah. Depends - I outperform most other CV players in randoms, when in divison we can really kick butt.

The main thing is, RTS could not just outperform but totally zero-out their opponent. That can't be done anymore. 

But low-skilled CV players now get outdone by FLAK, self-aiming and other stuff. I do not even have to do it anymore. 

And where in RTS you had to watch the enemy CV, now you can just farm at will. 

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I neither often hit all 4 torps with Kaga, but that also depends on ship and ships movement etc.

Yes, but a potato-player will hit just one. Man did you see some of the drops. 

They miss me when I am in Hood and I'm not even avoiding. That NEVER happened in RTS. 

Auto-aim was much better than some players. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 hours ago, WarDax said:

The last few randoms I have focused on CV, since many leave CV's alone by the map border or some remote island or piece of coast you can often circle around and get to them.

In Mainz I had no chance, planes, and some hits from other ships, took me out before causing enough damage or getting close enough for torps, but I just sunk one with Roon and boy it felt GOOD. Yes I was killed a few minutes after, but at least I took down a CV. Does this affect my support for the other players? Yes, sure it does, to some extent, but once I am within range of the damn CV it will focus mostly on me, so that leaves them rest to surface battle. 

You are correct there. If you can take out the CV, it is worth it. It usually has a lot op HP and you take out an influential ship. 

However, if you manage to take him out he was either unlucky or not paying attention,

or he was not that much of a threat to anyone to begin with... still a fat score, so do it if you get the chance. 

 

It's not worth it if you need 4 ships and half the match to do it... 

OK maybe if it is @El2aZeR it would be a meaningful kill but I doubt you'd succeed, he'll just kill you all. 

 

[Nibenay78]

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

....You can reduce the dmg of a CV just by grouping. Can you reduce the dmg of a BB by grouping? This aspect totally misses here.

Also what is the strength of a CV? Isolated targets.

Can we make the game less interesting by simply starting in a set formation that we can not deviate from? It would make things way more fun. Stealth, positioning and successful flanking are aspects that are boring and should be punished severely!

 

This post may contain sarcasm.

[Excavatus]

15 hours ago, LoveZeppelin said:

 

Enterprise is overpowered, they should have nerfed it along with all the other premium CVs when they had the opportunity. The decision to not touch its configuration by Devs, is .... try deleting a Benson in one go with Kaga's rockets. 

 

 

Enty rockets are OP just because you can turn and aim at the same time.. 

But I can kill a benson with 1 squadron of Shokek and Lexy as well.. 

 

14 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I remember a game, where a good CV player went for me the whole game long, only 1 or maybe 2 Strikes where not against me. I died as last ship and not from the CV.

And my friend, that not a good CV player at all.. nope.. just plain bad.. 

[WarDax]

8 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

It's not worth it if you need 4 ships and half the match to do it... 

OK maybe if it is @El2aZeR it would be a meaningful kill but I doubt you'd succeed, he'll just kill you all. 

No, alone, or at least not actively asking anyone else for help. 

 

I may try, and try, and try, I can be very persistent and utterly ignorant of my losses...  

[El2aZeR]

14 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You can reduce the dmg of a CV just by grouping. Can you reduce the dmg of a BB by grouping?

 

Yes. It is called focus fire and actually killing the enemy BB which, you know, cannot happen to a CV that's flying in for an attack.

Meanwhile grouping against a CV does... nothing but lose you the match. Congratulations.

[Nibenay78]

27 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Yes. It is called focus fire and actually killing the enemy BB which, you know, cannot happen to a CV that's flying in for an attack.

Meanwhile grouping against a CV does... nothing but lose you the match. Congratulations.

 

In other word the options are:

 

you can chose to play tactically well by flanking and crossfiring, which gives a higher chance of the team winning, but if the CV takes a liking to you, you're probably dead soon.

 

or

 

You can blob up together and make your broadsides open for probably half the enemy team and die. But at least the CV did't get you! :D

[DFens_666]

9 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

 

In other word the options are:

 

you can chose to play tactically well by flanking and crossfiring, which gives a higher chance of the team winning, but if the CV takes a liking to you, you're probably dead soon.

 

or

 

You can blob up together and make your broadsides open for probably half the enemy team and die. But at least the CV did't get you! :D

 

Unless CV is incompetent

Reminds me of my last ranked game yesterday, where half my team blobbed up and went towards mapborder. The rest of us (so me and another one) tried to hold the other side, but got pushed back more and more since the enemy CV harassed us and permaspotted us for their team.

Meanwhile, entire enemy team was pretty much scattered across the map, with 2 ships forming the biggest blobs. Yet our CV didnt do anything, he couldnt even spot them properly

That game was 100% decided by CVs, because enemy CV handcuffed me and ours didnt do anything, despite having it easier attacking enemy ships.

 

I would leave queue if i see CVs, but last game started immediately upon entering so no chance to abort

[Nibenay78]

54 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Unless CV is incompetent

Of course, but that kinda is the same for all ships. Its no good if you make a shimakaze with 500 torpedo tubes if the player launches them the wrong way.. :P 

I think in most situations we have to assume a basic level of competence to have a meaningful discussion.

[DFens_666]

21 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

I think in most situations we have to assume a basic level of competence to have a meaningful discussion.

 

The problem is, majority of CV players is horrendously bad, which prevents CVs from getting balanced. Imagine, 80% of the CV players would play close to the level of @El2aZeR... CVs would have been nerfed back into the stone-age

And even then, no other ship has so much impact over other players than a badly played CV (compared to other ships being played badly). Sure, a bad CV player might ignore you because he is simply incapable of understanding to strike you when necessary. But at the same time, he can screw you over even if you sit in your spawn, because he keeps coming for you. Playing against a decent CV player, you can forget about every tactical move, because he will punish you. Against a noob, you still might get away with it, unless he accidently finds you and still screw you over.

Imagine getting screwed by a Yamato sitting on A1 shooting HE from 30km... yeah, doesnt happen. But if its a CV, it happens every game, because they WILL screw someone, and if its just by permaspotting them.

[UnterSeeBot]

27 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

The problem is, majority of CV players is horrendously bad, which prevents CVs from getting balanced. Imagine, 80% of the CV players would play close to the level of @El2aZeR... CVs would have been nerfed back into the stone-age

And even then, no other ship has so much impact over other players than a badly played CV (compared to other ships being played badly). Sure, a bad CV player might ignore you because he is simply incapable of understanding to strike you when necessary. But at the same time, he can screw you over even if you sit in your spawn, because he keeps coming for you. Playing against a decent CV player, you can forget about every tactical move, because he will punish you. Against a noob, you still might get away with it, unless he accidently finds you and still screw you over.

Imagine getting screwed by a Yamato sitting on A1 shooting HE from 30km... yeah, doesnt happen. But if its a CV, it happens every game, because they WILL screw someone, and if its just by permaspotting them.

well yeah, CVs have to be balanced for all levels of (in)competence, from tomatoe to deep shades of purple (this is especially true for premiums). It doesn't help balancing for one ability level, the power/influence curve needs to be stretched for all levels. Given the underlying game design for CVs gives them so much passive and potential power/influence, i am not sure this is possible.

As for skill gaps between CV players and others, I don't think it fair to use the argument of a unicum CVer deleting a tomatoe DDer, examples should at the very least, (unless for humurous purposes) compare similar player skill/ability levels. e.g unicum CVer vs unicum DDer.

Yes, CVs will always screw someone over, but more or less effectively. But let's be honest, some players make themselves easy targets : Khaba rushes cap at start of battle, and then STOPS!* I mean these sorts of players would probably be sunk very quickly by another warship or have negligible influence on battle outcome anyway.

 

 

edit : *I did this once

[DFens_666]

16 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

As for skill gaps between CV players and others, I don't think it fair to use the argument of a unicum CVer deleting a tomatoe DDer, examples should at the very least, (unless for humurous purposes) compare similar player skill/ability levels. e.g unicum CVer vs unicum DDer.

 

Thats exactly the issue!

A Unicum CV player will pretty much wipe the floor with any other ship, even when played by a Unicum. The only thing you can do, is play so passively that he has to strike other targets, and then he already won, since you are (almost) useless.

At the same time, even a mediocre or bad CV player can ruin your game despite being a better player, and there is not much you can do about it. It cant be an arguement, that it might not happen to you in a specific game, because the CV is doing this to another target somewhere else on the map. He is doing it someone almost guaranteed.

[Pikkozoikum]

5 hours ago, Excavatus said:

And my friend, that not a good CV player at all.. nope.. just plain bad.. 

Well, that's what I don't like on many discussion, just annswering "Then he was bad". That's the same answer to most CV victims. A stationary DM was also plain bad, which I hit 2x with 3 cits of the ap bombs.

 

I sadly don't have the screenshot, but his winrate was something like 56%, so he wasn't plain bad. Shikishima was just new, has good TB protection and good AA. So I just tanked most damage. His only mistake was to go for me, because he can't stink me alone fast. We lost then, because my team died to the other surface ships pretty fast. So the damage on me was actually useless

[UnterSeeBot]

11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Thats exactly the issue!

A Unicum CV player will pretty much wipe the floor with any other ship, even when played by a Unicum. The only thing you can do, is play so passively that he has to strike other targets, and then he already won, since you are (almost) useless.

but I want examples of a unicum cv player wiping the floor with a unicum dder. This is what needs to be shown here, and to others. Maybe somebody could set up a duel, to see how long a unicum dder can survive vs a unicum cv player, in the Training Room. Because all we are showing ourselves, are subjective experiences of battles, which are easily shot down by other forum users. How many examples of the opposite have I shown here? Me in a dd sinking a cv - and the replies = "the cver was a potatoe" ok, fine, but then we need to all strive for greater objectivity.

We need to see examples : players of equal skill/ability level, face off in cv vs dd scenarios.

[Pikkozoikum]

11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Thats exactly the issue!

A Unicum CV player will pretty much wipe the floor with any other ship, even when played by a Unicum. The only thing you can do, is play so passively that he has to strike other targets, and then he already won, since you are (almost) useless.

Or the DD plays around the CV, caps, when the CV is busy -> smoke and out, winning by caps and map control. If a good CV player goes for a good DD player and the DD player keeps the CV player busy enough, according to people that CV is "broken influencial" then it's a win for the DD: Because he kept the most influencial ship busy to win the match. If CV and the target make themself useless because of passive play / baiting the CV, so that nobody of them can do anything, then the CV is the loser.

 

Though when I play DD, I see it more as teamplay, that I try to play with my mates and go only for caps, when it's actual save. Some passive play should all DDs know, otherwise it's yolo rush, and I don't think that's what DD ever should do, not against CV, no matter if Rework or RTS version