General CV related discussions.

[arquata2019_]

3 minuti fa, Excavatus ha scritto:

Claiming that there is a counter against CVs, and it is really ok to play against CVs.. is just.. ignorance If you ask me.. 

The problem is, the general stats shows CVs are ok.. ish... but It does not change the fact that CVs can have more influence on the game than the all other ships combined in a given match :) 

a lot of people not knowing how to play a class does not make that class balanced... 

why can you rework them? or put limited planes? what about the alternate cv line? i want these answers @Excavatus

[CptBarney]

Just now, arquata2019 said:

if you want actually (not 100% and  not biased game) a game you can get bsm or bsp (battlestation midway and battlestations pacific)

I forgot about those, although i suspect they want something a bit more modern. Maybe idk.

[Pikkozoikum]

9 minutes ago, UnderDuress said:

I don’t understand why you post stuff like this here, or the rest of odd stuff you do. The only people in this thread tends to be knowledgeable about game mechanics. If you post it out in the wild you might catch a few gullible people who don’t know the difference between solo stats and divisioned stats and whatnot, but what’s the point doing it here?

I don't know, why you post that odd stuf either :P

You pick one of the most unimportant statements and ignore the important ones.

Beside that I'm pretty sure, that you also can find solo 80% surface ships with more than lets say 50 games.

 

 

 

[arquata2019_]

5 ore fa, El2aZeR ha scritto:

 

Funny, you literally stated previously that you do not.

 

 

Again, smoking up against a CV is not you countering the CV. It is the CV countering you since he just made you useless for the next few minutes.

You can also use TBs and rockets while using island cover to your advantage. And contrary to what you believe it does not take a significant time to do so.

You are in no control over where an air dropped torpedo lands. The CV player is in full control over that. Why you would attack a DD with torps is beyond me.

And the idea that the CV can just turn with you has ofc never crossed your mind.

 

Ingame application:

 

 

Most AP DBs and DBs in general can adjust their approach without accuracy penalty.

Oh yeah, you see that last gif? That's a Smolensk and a Worcester in that smoke. Weird how they're incapable of shooting down a meaningful amount of planes, isn't it?

 

 

More like you're putting your ignorance on the subject on blatant display.

remember that cvs are ok

in some people's view i mean

(btw, you're a good cv played leaving alone all cvs i meet)

[Excavatus]

3 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

ok, back to semantics. 

what do you mean by a "counter"?

Do you have an example?

Does a counter have to be absolute, or partial?

 

let's create a level playing field for this topic, define the terms.

Good question, 

For example, Counter against Torp boats.. 
you use your brain as a player (not you specifically here..), hydro, WASD.. 
You may stop chasing a DD.... 

 

about BB AP, you may angle, you may tank, you may bait shots.. 

 

What I mean by counter, by doing / using something Under YOUR CONTROL, you can mitigate the damage you may take greatly or even nullify it... 

 

But you don't have that chance against CVs.. The only thing that can save you is either the enemy CV being a bad player.. 

or blobbing up with your friends.. and in that case, which makes you give map control to the enemy team, which basically makes CV influencing the match towards his team again. 

 

The problem is, CVs playing a completely different game than the surface players.. and the interaction between them is just a one way street. 

It is designed that way. 

 

I'm not going in to the topics of CVs are the tankiest ships in the game, having the best AA, ridiculous consumables and game mechanics etc. etc... 

The counter should not be an absolute.. can be partial.. 

 

Like AP rockets.. When you are in a DD, If you know what to do, AP rockets will not be a problem for you ever.. they are the balancing effort of WG in CV - DD interaction IMO. 
you can't be killed by them.. Unless you are already very low... Last night in a very regular match, It took me 1 squadron of rocket planes in Enty to kill a benson, 

probably in total of 30 seconds.. the only thing he could do was stay behind.. in the protection of his own fleet.. 

then what? people take positions, and poke DD to go cap.. spot.. yeah :) great.. 

 

1 minute ago, arquata2019 said:

why can you rework them? or put limited planes? what about the alternate cv line? i want these answers @Excavatus

The fundemantals of the reworked CVs prevents them to be balance If you ask me.. Thats my opinion. 

you cannot make both sides of a CV-Surface ship interaction having fun at the same time.. with this model.. it is impossible.. 

it is either surface ships obliterate planes and say "Send more planes noob!" then the CV player Cries... or the CV obliterates the surface ship and the surface ship cries.. 

I'm at the same point where @El2aZeR was even at the testing phase of the CV rework.. 

He screamed out "THIS IS SO MUCH BROKEN, CANNOT BE BALANCED AT ALL"

 

we only had 1 patch where the balance looked okish.. 0.8.3. 
and numbers of CV players dropped like a brick into the ocean.. why? because AA meant something in that patch :) 

[DFens_666]

5 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

ok, back to semantics. 

what do you mean by a "counter"?

Do you have an example?

Does a counter have to be absolute, or partial?

 

let's create a level playing field for this topic, define the terms.

 

Take Radar as an example:

- Whats the strong point of DDs in regard to other classes? Good concealment

- If we only look at all the classes without gimmicks, which class/ship can spot DDs? -> CVs or DDs

- Back in the days, most games had no CV in it, leaving DDs to spot DDs. DDs spotting each other often would result in one DD dying, and 1 DD being left alive.

- The DD which remained alive had no more counter to its concealment, thus DDs being the only way to spot other DDs doesnt work.

- Radar directly counters the concealment of DDs. It removes the concealment advantage to 100% within the area, regardless of smoke/island.

[Pikkozoikum]

9 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Claiming that there is a counter against CVs, and it is really ok to play against CVs.. is just.. ignorance If you ask me.. 

The problem is, the general stats shows CVs are ok.. ish... but It does not change the fact that CVs can have more influence on the game than the all other ships combined in a given match :) 

a lot of people not knowing how to play a class does not make that class balanced... 

As I said earlier. If you remove CV, you will have other ships with most influence. That is something that you can't remove unless you don't make every ship very even. Like only one type of bb and remove all cruisers and DDs. That's how the current discussion started.

 

So you have to expect, that one ship type will be the most influencial, when we have that variety of ships. The point is, if the class is too influencial. In my view, it become way better than the old RTS CV, or if you want so, even better than Rework-release.

 

That "counter" stuff, no idea what the point of that. I know how to play against CVs, that's the important thing to win a match.

 

Spoiler

it is really ok to play against CVs..

 

Because of this it's okay. I don't get the negative experience, that other somehow have. But when I play CV, I can imagine, why so many have negative experience, because they have no clue, what they are doing. Playing CV is sometimes like they would have implemented BB just recently and nobody knows, that they should not show broadside, thus the "new bbs" farm broadsides ^^

 

When I play BB the DDs are way worse than CVs :3

 

 

[Excavatus]

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That "counter" stuff, no idea what the point of that. I know how to play against CVs, that's the important thing to win a match.

you didn't get the point at all! 

you playing against a CV good or bad.. is about you only %10... it is %90 depends on the CV player.. 

and that is the problem. 

 

Most of the CV players being bad... is not an argument for CVs being ok in the game. 

and from your example screenshot, feeding 40 planes to a hayate without even killing it.. just shows how bad that guy is :)

[UnterSeeBot]

34 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

The problem is, CVs playing a completely different game than the surface players.. and the interaction between them is just a one way street. 

It is designed that way. 

to my mind this is the heart of the problem, it is both objectively true, and psychologically too (the feeling of being oppressed from above many surface ship players feel during a battle with CVs, the utter confusion of trying to play 3 or 4 dimensional chess, with the opponent making 4 simultaneous moves! It is the source of so much resentment - statistics of player "reports" must show this)

 

34 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

What I mean by counter, by doing / using something Under YOUR CONTROL, you can mitigate the damage you may take greatly or even nullify it... 

This is a good definition, and comes down to the notion of "having control over a situation", which ties in with the common feeling of being oppressed, of having nowhere to turn, nowhere to hide.

Some kinds of CV attack by some CVs  can be more easily mitigated (partial counter) than others. I may hurt my own argument that partial counters to CV air attacks do exist, by admitting my most successful dd games in a match with CVs having been by guessing enemy CV squadron choices and moves, and then sailing my dd in the opposite direction. (I don't try to counter, I try to avoid having to even try!) Because when spotted by a CV, forced to decide if its more important to try to dodge the rocket attack, incoming slavos of HE from a cruiser, and a torp spread from an enemy dd, we all die a little inside.

34 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Last night in a very regular match, It took me 1 squadron of rocket planes in Enty to kill a benson, 

Enterprise is overpowered, they should have nerfed it along with all the other premium CVs when they had the opportunity. The decision to not touch its configuration by Devs, is .... try deleting a Benson in one go with Kaga's rockets. 

 

34 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

the only thing he could do was stay behind.. in the protection of his own fleet.. 

I see this quite a lot nowadays, dds staying close to a blob, screening for enemy dds/spamming torps as area denial. It makes for very static gameplay.

34 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

The counter should not be an absolute.. can be partial.. 

 

I think they exist, maybe I am wrong in my assessment, many here disagree with the idea that partial counters might exist. Are existing partial counters sufficient? Clearly not. 

33 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Radar directly counters the concealment of DDs. It removes the concealment advantage to 100% within the area, regardless of smoke/island.

So... if dds had a direct counter to CV spotting, would that help? I and others have suggested some sort of jamming consumeable to break targeting based on indirect (CV) spotting. Would also help in context of radar spammy battles too. I am not sure that any effective and intuitive (i.e make some sort of coherent, logical sense) proposal is acceptable for devs, after all, if it were, why haven't they already done it?

33 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

- The DD which remained alive had no more counter to its concealment, thus DDs being the only way to spot other DDs doesnt work.

 

the influence of dds in end game scenarios is why I always seek to gain a dd advantage for our team at the start of battle, either by neutralizing at least one enemy dd, or by neutralizing at least one source of enemy radar. Even with radar, rdf and german hydro, dds remain the second (?) most influential class on battle outcomes.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

13 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

As I said earlier. If you remove CV, you will have other ships with most influence. That is something that you can't remove unless you don't make every ship very even. Like only one type of bb and remove all cruisers and DDs. That's how the current discussion started.

 

So you have to expect, that one ship type will be the most influencial, when we have that variety of ships. The point is, if the class is too influencial. In my view, it become way better than the old RTS CV, or if you want so, even better than Rework-release.

 

There is no need or unavoidable natural reason for one class to be the most influential other then WG doing a bad job designing class gameplay. Eventually there will be individual ships that float to the top in a natural way, but a good class design gives every class a valid overarching equal influence in their own right without destroying gameplay for the other classes. WG deliberately destroys class balance and gameplay functionality in favor of accessiblity.

[Pikkozoikum]

29 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

you didn't get the point at all! 

you playing against a CV good or bad.. is about you only %10... it is %90 depends on the CV player.. 

and that is the problem. 

You could say same about, when a BB is shotting at a ship. It's mostly about how the BB aimed and RNG.

 

30 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Most of the CV players being bad... is not an argument for CVs being ok in the game. 

The statement was, that you don't know, how people are fine with CV, I showed you the reason and common case. Over 1 year of playing against and with CVs, I see nothing frustrating. I mean not more frustrating than HE spam, Radar, Floods, DDs, etc. Nobody likes to get striked, but thats what happens in this game^^

Also we can't go with "Good CV players can have great games against potatoes", but then "Good players in surface ships against average CV players" is invalid :P

 

31 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

and from your example screenshot, feeding 40 planes to a hayate without even killing it.. just shows how bad that guy is :)

He was actually above average, though there are of course also a lot fighters ;)

Guess a bad RTS - CV player would have killed me with an automated cross drop :D (Hayta is pretty sluggish)

[arquata2019_]

1 ora fa, Excavatus ha scritto:

Good question, 

For example, Counter against Torp boats.. 
you use your brain as a player (not you specifically here..), hydro, WASD.. 
You may stop chasing a DD.... 

 

about BB AP, you may angle, you may tank, you may bait shots.. 

 

What I mean by counter, by doing / using something Under YOUR CONTROL, you can mitigate the damage you may take greatly or even nullify it... 

 

But you don't have that chance against CVs.. The only thing that can save you is either the enemy CV being a bad player.. 

or blobbing up with your friends.. and in that case, which makes you give map control to the enemy team, which basically makes CV influencing the match towards his team again. 

 

The problem is, CVs playing a completely different game than the surface players.. and the interaction between them is just a one way street. 

It is designed that way. 

 

I'm not going in to the topics of CVs are the tankiest ships in the game, having the best AA, ridiculous consumables and game mechanics etc. etc... 

The counter should not be an absolute.. can be partial.. 

 

Like AP rockets.. When you are in a DD, If you know what to do, AP rockets will not be a problem for you ever.. they are the balancing effort of WG in CV - DD interaction IMO. 
you can't be killed by them.. Unless you are already very low... Last night in a very regular match, It took me 1 squadron of rocket planes in Enty to kill a benson, 

probably in total of 30 seconds.. the only thing he could do was stay behind.. in the protection of his own fleet.. 

then what? people take positions, and poke DD to go cap.. spot.. yeah :) great.. 

 

The fundemantals of the reworked CVs prevents them to be balance If you ask me.. Thats my opinion. 

you cannot make both sides of a CV-Surface ship interaction having fun at the same time.. with this model.. it is impossible.. 

it is either surface ships obliterate planes and say "Send more planes noob!" then the CV player Cries... or the CV obliterates the surface ship and the surface ship cries.. 

I'm at the same point where @El2aZeR was even at the testing phase of the CV rework.. 

He screamed out "THIS IS SO MUCH BROKEN, CANNOT BE BALANCED AT ALL"

 

we only had 1 patch where the balance looked okish.. 0.8.3. 
and numbers of CV players dropped like a brick into the ocean.. why? because AA meant something in that patch :) 

what about the alternate cv line?  @Excavatus, i want yorktown and essex back

[Pikkozoikum]

 

 

44 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

I think they exist, maybe I am wrong in my assessment, many here disagree with the idea that partial counters might exist. Are existing partial counters sufficient? Clearly not.  

That's the thing. When a ship angles, then it's a "counter", even if the BB still does 10k because it hits the deck or overmatches the bow/stern. But when a aligns with the rocket planes and the rockets do 500 dmg, then that is not a counter, because it is only the CV player who failed... ^^

 

48 minutes ago, LoveZeppelin said:

Because when spotted by a CV, forced to decide if its more important to try to dodge the rocket attack, incoming slavos of HE from a cruiser, and a torp spread from an enemy dd, we all die a little inside.

I know, that's actually an issue. But multiple ships are often an issue. If spotted by DD or CV doesn't make much of a difference. Though they are testing Concealments, and that would completly change the case.

 

Funfact, I did a proposal, where the DD is actualy the Counter-ship to CV spotting. The idea was, that Strikeplanes can't team-spot, all squads get only 1 full squad max reserve. Then they ad 2 squads of recon planes. In one squad of recon planes is actually only one plane. Thus the HP of the plane and full squad is ~1.5k hp. That means CLs and DDs are able to destroy the Recon plane very easy and fast

 

Now the question, why would i use the recon plane? Simply, it's not just a normal plane with spotting, but with new mechanics! It can start an "obersvation flight" similar to the attack runs of TBs. While that th recon plane can target a single ship and mark it for the team. When doing that, some voice commands are played and special indicator, that this target is market as primary target. The dispersion -20% on that target and dealt damage will added to the CV as well.

 

 

[DFens_666]

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That's the thing. When a ship angles, then it's a "counter", even if the BB still does 10k because it hits the deck or overmatches the bow/stern. But when a aligns with the rocket planes and the rockets do 500 dmg, then that is not a counter, because it is only the CV player who failed... ^^ 

 

 

A BB cant magicially fly around you and get the perfect attack angle on you. If i dont show broadside, he cant citadel me f.e. Or i go behind an island, the BB cant just fly around in 30 secs to attack me from the side. Either he needs more time or a friendly DD might actually stop him from going there.

Not so CVs, he can just conveniently fly around me FASTER than i can maneuver my ship. Not to mention, dodging planes might just open up my broadside for the BB just waiting to hit my citadel.

 

Why is this difference so hard to understand for some CV players?

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Because not everyone sits in a stationary DM against AP bomber or a straight moving DD with AA on and no A and D keys :3

Quite true. But yesterday I met a DD player that I have seen a few times before. 

I was in Kaga and he had one of those Dakka dakka EU DDs. He posted in chat, feed me your planes. 

OK so I fed him some, took away 1/4th of his HP. Mind you he was smart, it did cost me a lot of planes. 

 

But there could be only one outcome. He died. He couldn't cap. Yeah he still sent torps and some of my potato team even caught them.

I lost some planes. Didn't make me less effective (still killed a Stalin a BB and that DD, scored 85K in a T10 match and we won). Duh.

[Pikkozoikum]

8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

A BB cant magicially fly around you and get the perfect attack angle on you. If i dont show broadside, he cant citadel me f.e. Or i go behind an island, the BB cant just fly around in 30 secs to attack me from the side. Either he needs more time or a friendly DD might actually stop him from going there.

Not so CVs, he can just conveniently fly around me FASTER than i can maneuver my ship. Not to mention, dodging planes might just open up my broadside for the BB just waiting to hit my citadel.

I remember a game, where a good CV player went for me the whole game long, only 1 or maybe 2 Strikes where not against me. I died as last ship and not from the CV. Now remember  how it was in RTS against IJN BBs. How long does a BB survive that? ;)

I remember RTS games, where I got more or less dev striked in a BB, and also where I dev striked BBs as CV. So the BBs are actually the winner in the CV rework. The floods dont hurt that much, CV DPM is weaker

 

9 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Why is this difference so hard to understand for some CV players?

Ask CV players, I'm an allrounder. =)

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

and from your example screenshot, feeding 40 planes to a hayate without even killing it.. just shows how bad that guy is :)

I'll kill a EU DD with Kaga (very very flimsy planes) in 3 charges. 

SO, how many is the max loss on that, can't be 40? That's assuming they'll all be dead. 

Which they will not. But that DD will be... and I will still have full squads. 

[Panocek]

2 hours ago, arquata2019 said:

why can you rework them? or put limited planes? what about the alternate cv line? i want these answers @Excavatus

Planes are already limited, as there are only so many planes that can be recovered within 20 minutes.

[BLUB__BLUB]

BTW on a side note, masterrrr @El2aZeR if your clan can spare you: 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

11 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Quite true. But yesterday I met a DD player that I have seen a few times before. 

I was in Kaga and he had one of those Dakka dakka EU DDs. He posted in chat, feed me your planes. 

OK so I fed him some, took away 1/4th of his HP. Mind you he was smart, it did cost me a lot of planes. 

 

But there could be only one outcome. He died. He couldn't cap. Yeah he still sent torps and some of my potato team even caught them.

I lost some planes. Didn't make me less effective (still killed a Stalin a BB and that DD, scored 85K in a T10 match and we won). Duh.

Well, I dropped an early capping DD with Kaga TBs and he died. He wasn't even spotted by me, but by another dd. That happens, that are missplays. 1/4 HP sounds actually like a quite lucky hit and/or bad play by the DD

[AndyHill]

The new season of clan garbage is here: https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/76?fbclid=IwAR36kT6_GU4o1P5t-bys5oQoRDKYirdYpz5Ia3YyvXkwwz81b43VxHV5OnM

 

T10, 2BB (or 1CV 1BB), with possibility(?) of cyclones on every map.

 

Previously cyclone appearance was map-based, but maybe it's random now? I think it's funny how WG are bending over backwards to try to fir carriers into clan wars - or it would be if I didn't actually want to play them. The addition of cyclones everywhere is in fact by far the most effective tool they had in their arsenal. It's close to the minimap spotting idea and although the constant cyclones will be hilariously stupid and universally hated, I have to commend WG on figuring it out.

 

I can only imagine some competent designer trying to persuade an ignorant Big Boss about the impossibility of adding carriers into a competitive (or any) game mode and the Big Boss just insisting that the designer just needs to learn his job or get fired. And this is the only thing the designer can come up with. Because it is!

 

Would be funny if it wasn't true.

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Planes are already limited, as there are only so many planes that can be recovered within 20 minutes.

Yep, though it's sometimes hard to "deplane" a CV, but what can happen, if DDs and Crusiers focus on deleting Rocket planes, those will come short and if the CV has to start 3 planes in one squad, those can get destroyed before it reaches anything. Though there might also other cases, just one case that can happen and can be done

[BLUB__BLUB]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, I dropped an early capping DD with Kaga TBs and he died. He wasn't even spotted by me, but by another dd. That happens, that are missplays. 1/4 HP sounds actually like a quite lucky hit and/or bad play by the DD

It's true I do not have any idea if he was actually any good, but I have seen him before. 

1/4 HP is easy... rockets on broadside... 

 

The thing is you need to have "some idea of where he is". So, spotting him will cost planes. 

Then next time you do 1/4, and your teammates do some as well. I had to do most, because, well, GLUEEEEE.

Three attacks were enough though.

 

I tend to drop DDs with torps a lot - they do not expect you to do it. 

With Kaga you send "chaser" torps, then he can't turn... then send another load crossing. 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

It's true I do not have any idea if he was actually any good, but I have seen him before. 

1/4 HP is easy... rockets on broadside... 

 

The thing is you need to have "some idea of where he is". So, spotting him will cost planes. 

Then next time you do 1/4, and your teammates do some as well. I had to do most, because, well, GLUEEEEE.

Three attacks were enough though.

 

I tend to drop DDs with torps a lot - they do not expect you to do it. 

With Kaga you send "chaser" torps, then he can't turn... then send another load crossing. 

 

When I played my Hayate game with that screenshot, he only got one broadside to me. But well, I didn't payed too much attention and also didn't wanted to show broadside to the Smolensk, who was firig at me. But I survived and did a lot in that game. With RTS, I would probably die after the first TB cross drop. The differences are huge.

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Yep, though it's sometimes hard to "deplane" a CV, but what can happen, if DDs and Crusiers focus on deleting Rocket planes, those will come short and if the CV has to start 3 planes in one squad, those can get destroyed before it reaches anything. Though there might also other cases, just one case that can happen and can be done

The problem here is: the CV decides to launch rocket planes. It is not the choice of the reds what they get to shoot. 

Also - if you "manage" the planes there is little reason to run out of them. This is (part of) that skill gap @El2aZeR is talking about.

I never ever run out of planes... except might run a bit low in CB, when you HAVE TO attack a target, even though it's not the best.

Like, having to reset cap on triple-cruisers (normally I'd go F3--> hey guys there is some floating citadel food here).