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loppantorkel

DD rework thread

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People may think it's a troll thread and perhaps occasional mod too, but it's not. There's some merit to this idea. Cvs have been 'balanced' for over a year and while reworking dds won't solve some of the inherent cv issues, it could solve some issues regarding cv-dd interaction. There's also the looming submarine implementation hanging over all of this which might be cause for further dd changes.

 

The reason behind why one could consider a dd overhaul is that WG has shown little interest to balance cvs much more than this. I know dds are playable even if cvs are in the game, that's not the issue. The issue is the apparent change in gameplay for dds depending on if cvs are in the game or not, and even more if there's a discrepancy in skill between the cv players. I love playing dds without cvs in the game and I believe the majority of players prefer games without cvs, but it seems WGs prime interest is to balance the game for cvs. Not saying they're succeeding, but it's obvious they want to keep the cv population up no matter the cost.

 

So, if the game is going forward where you can expect cvs to be present, and if you want dd players (also the average-below average) to have fun and play a decent role....

 

Flooding damage from torps has been severely reduced and there is increased spotting (radar, planes) and knowledge (RL) where the dds are now compared to before:

Increase the torp distance by 20% for most dds at high tiers, decrease direct damage but increase flood chance. Good reward at close range torping but you can provide support further back and on flanks without moving within 10km. Less 'blap' potential on torp drops but more reliable flood dps per battle.

 

Increase smoke firing penalty on dds. A dd moving in on a smoked up gun dd should be able to easier spot him for the team. Just to get away from that thing.

 

Make all torps deep water. I love sinking those dds in smoke with my shima, but to be fair, dd health is so low that one torp usually is enough to put a dd out of battle and I'm not sure it's great for the game. Maybe it would be better if gun dds went back to hunting torp dds instead of farming bbs from smoke, and torp dds focused on the larger vessels.

 

Also, don't alert the cv of his planes being spotted by a dd.

 

 

Disclaimer: I'm not really arguing that these changes should make it into the game. Some of them are probably bad ideas, but I might as well put them out there for discussion. It's not like WG has managed to fix this by themselves and I kind of was ignored by the WG representatives on my last posed questions on what their stance is on the cv-dd interation.

 

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25 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Flooding damage from torps has been severely reduced

 

But they specifically said that flooding change which came with the reeeeeeeeework shouldn't affect the overall flooding damage! I had faith with the WG design team, they should know their game!

 

.... and then I looked at the date of my last Liquidator achievement.

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37 minutes ago, Altsak said:

I had faith with the WG design team, they should know their game!

:Smile_veryhappy:

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Destroyer torpedoes should do more damage per hit and therefore be more likely to cause flooding than carrier borne ones. (The warhead of an IJN Aerial torpedo was around 75% of the size of a standard Type 93).  Carrier borne torps should have a better chance of inflicting temporary damage on ship modules - this is less of a problem for Destroyers as they generally equip the LS captain skill; BBs generally look more towards fire prevention. As the Bismarck found out, a single carrier hit to a significant system can be a real problem. 

 

Carrier borne torpedo planes should be part of larger wings with more widely spaced combs in order to be more effective against larger ships and more easily dodged by small ships such as destroyers. Rocket plane dispersion should be significantly widened at all tiers. 

 

Allow Destroyers to switch between torpedo load outs in game, not just in the module screen, and provide a wider range of options to the DD player. These were weapons which could be adjusted for speed and range in battle, it should be possible in game. 

 

Increase the duration of the "single ship spotting" effect of radar by 50%. 

 

 

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playing a lot of dd matches recently, i see no need for action at all tbh.... 64 matches (of which 23 on asashios sisters and 11 on benham) in last 3 weeks

73.85%

 

solo 26 (16 on asashios):

69.23%

 

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

[...]

 

The issue is the apparent change in gameplay for dds depending on if cvs are in the game or not, and even more if there's a discrepancy in skill between the cv players.

i disagree in it being a problem

 

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

[...]

 

Increase the torp distance by 20% for most dds at high tiers, decrease direct damage but increase flood chance. Good reward at close range torping but you can provide support further back and on flanks without moving within 10km. Less 'blap' potential on torp drops but more reliable flood dps per battle.

i disagree hard! direct dmg is dd's life. change into dot would make it even more unreliable to deal dmg with the weapontype in game, that already is the most unreliable one!

 

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

 

Increase smoke firing penalty on dds.

:Smile_amazed:no troll thread?!.... aKa: make it even more hard to play dd and have some impact. no thx, not at all imho!

 

 

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

[...]

Make all torps deep water. I love sinking those dds in smoke with my shima, but to be fair, dd health is so low that one torp usually is enough to put a dd out of battle and I'm not sure it's great for the game. Maybe it would be better if gun dds went back to hunting torp dds instead of farming bbs from smoke, and torp dds focused on the larger vessels.

and here we're done! dd's are meant to be squishy, torps are meant to deal dmg. only because people dont get how to play accordingly a dd doesnt mean we need to dumb it down to pure gun dd interaction. hopefully never!

 

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

 

Also, don't alert the cv of his planes being spotted by a dd.

idc, no probs mostly here.

 

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

 

Disclaimer: I'm not really arguing that these changes should make it into the game. Some of them are probably bad ideas, but I might as well put them out there for discussion. It's not like WG has managed to fix this by themselves and I kind of was ignored by the WG representatives on my last posed questions on what their stance is on the cv-dd interation.

 

imo kinda everything there is a bad idea. sry mate :Smile_honoring:

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- make DDs incapable of attacking each other

- make DD torp homing and able to be steered into their target up until ~1km of a ship. An automated AI defense system that is easily outmaneuvered will be created to "counter" this and be given to all ships

- increase DD torp speed by about 3-4x and make them ignore terrain

- decrease DD torp alpha but increase their rate of fire so that it matches up to about the same damage output as before

- increase DD torp range to infinity

- make DDs be able to only be controlled by auto pilot while steering torpedoes, make them immune to DoT and give them a DCP that lasts for 1 minute base

 

This will create a system that is perfectly balanced and provide a fun and engaging experience for everyone involved.

Wait, this all sounds very familiar.... :cap_hmm:

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46 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

playing a lot of dd matches recently, i see no need for action at all tbh.... 64 matches (of which 23 on asashios sisters and 11 on benham) in last 3 weeks

73.85%

 

solo 26 (16 on asashios):

69.23%

 

i disagree in it being a problem

 

i disagree hard! direct dmg is dd's life. change into dot would make it even more unreliable to deal dmg with the weapontype in game, that already is the most unreliable one!

 

:Smile_amazed:no troll thread?!.... aKa: make it even more hard to play dd and have some impact. no thx, not at all imho!

 

and here we're done! dd's are meant to be squishy, torps are meant to deal dmg. only because people dont get how to play accordingly a dd doesnt mean we need to dumb it down to pure gun dd interaction. hopefully never!

 

idc, no probs mostly here.

 

imo kinda everything there is a bad idea. sry mate :Smile_honoring:

Oh you got it all wrong. I'm not asking to buff dds. This is my stats:

1345318246_Skarmavbild2020-02-29kl_19_16_33.thumb.png.c8fb067efae42e9346f0192dd7b8776e.png

Something is horribly off here. I suspect most good dd players have jumped ship and there's mostly potatoes and newcomers in dds left. I even got two krakens in my final two shima games, both of them cv-games. IJN dds rule this meta. I'm just trying to beat WG before the nerfs come.

 

Edit: Maybe the ideas are bad in a vacuum, or altogether. I just get the feeling that there are very few viable dds in the game atm. IJN dds are still excellent in this meta. Daring is probably very good, but most other are not as good or fun as they once were. Maybe it's just a feeling, but I think something has to change if cvs are to stay the way they are and become more prevalent.

I sort of suspect that WG will take a look at the performance of some of these dds too and just nerf the ones that are 'too viable'.

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I am not holding my breath on a goede rewerk to done. Something will be subtracted and other things will be implement not that they will be good implements or even the subtractions.

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53 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Oh you got it all wrong. I'm not asking to buff dds. This is my stats:

1345318246_Skarmavbild2020-02-29kl_19_16_33.thumb.png.c8fb067efae42e9346f0192dd7b8776e.png

Something is horribly off here. I suspect most good dd players have jumped ship and there's mostly potatoes and newcomers in dds left. I even got two krakens in my final two shima games, both of them cv-games. IJN dds rule this meta. I'm just trying to beat WG before the nerfs come.

 

Edit: Maybe the ideas are bad in a vacuum, or altogether. I just get the feeling that there are very few viable dds in the game atm. IJN dds are still excellent in this meta. Daring is probably very good, but most other are not as good or fun as they once were. Maybe it's just a feeling, but I think something has to change if cvs are to stay the way they are and become more prevalent.

I sort of suspect that WG will take a look at the performance of some of these dds too and just nerf the ones that are 'too viable'.

i didnt understand it in terms of a buff lol, rather a hard nerf. me no gusto. in that regard, as for me..... last week/3 weeks :Smile_hiding:... but i dont start a buff bb thread ^^:Smile_trollface::Smile_bajan2:

70.83%
Super Unicum
+ 0.1% 73.85%
Super Unicum
+ 0.33%
- - - -
60%
Unicum
- 56.76%
Great
- 0.01%
90.91%
Super Unicum
+ 0.08% 82.35%
Super Unicum

+ 0.19%

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3 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

i didnt understand it in terms of a buff lol, rather a hard nerf. me no gusto. in that regard, as for me..... last week/3 weeks :Smile_hiding:... but i dont start a buff bb thread ^^:Smile_trollface::Smile_bajan2:

70.83%
Super Unicum
+ 0.1% 73.85%
Super Unicum
+ 0.33%
- - - -
60%
Unicum
- 56.76%
Great
- 0.01%
90.91%
Super Unicum
+ 0.08% 82.35%
Super Unicum

+ 0.19%

You'd have to start a bb rework thread with some bb nerf suggestions. That would be more like it. Should be both entertaining and refreshing :crab:

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Good brainstorming initiative, Captain loppantorkel!

 

Some short initial thoughts about your suggestions.

 

4 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Flooding damage from torps has been severely reduced and there is increased spotting (radar, planes) and knowledge (RL) where the dds are now compared to before:

Increase the torp distance by 20% for most dds at high tiers, decrease direct damage but increase flood chance. Good reward at close range torping but you can provide support further back and on flanks without moving within 10km. Less 'blap' potential on torp drops but more reliable flood dps per battle.

 

Increased torpedo range and speed are two important balancing factors to keep destroyers effective despite the prevalence of radar, hydro and plane spotting. This should be done judiciously and with care, however, since a straight up 20 % increase over the whole field would most likely play havoc with the overall game balance in more ways than one. But I believe that the idea of fast, long-range torpedoes is already in the cooking in the form of the forthcoming Swedish destroyers...?

 

As for the Radio Location skill, I have long been of the opinion that it makes the gameplay less fun and that it should be removed. But I am clearly in the minority, and I don't want to get off-topic so this is all I will say about it, here.

 

4 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Increase smoke firing penalty on dds. A dd moving in on a smoked up gun dd should be able to easier spot him for the team. Just to get away from that thing.

 

I don't think I like this idea, to be honest. Making smoke less effective for the destroyer employing it, seems counter-intuitive from a pro-destroyer point of view, in my opinion. There are many ways to flush out a destroyer that goes into smoking mode, and when I - for once - manage to place myself in a good smoke-firing position, and have the luxury of allies to spot for me, I really don't want that moment to be ruined. So while I can see the reason for your suggestion, I vote no to this.

 

4 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Make all torps deep water. I love sinking those dds in smoke with my shima, but to be fair, dd health is so low that one torp usually is enough to put a dd out of battle and I'm not sure it's great for the game. Maybe it would be better if gun dds went back to hunting torp dds instead of farming bbs from smoke, and torp dds focused on the larger vessels.

 

Hell, no! Let the Pan-Asians keep their gimmicky torpedoes, and let the rest of the gunboat/torpedo boat hybrids live and fight on in the way that nature intended! If I'm in my T-61 and happen to be fighting a Gadjah Mada, I know that while I would be hopelessly outclassed in a gun fight, I can still outwit him with my hydro, my smoke and my torpedoes. And if I'm in my Gadjah Mada and face off against a T-61, I know that I must maneuver carefully and pick my moment so that the battle will be decided by guns and not by smoke, hydro and torpedoes. Give the T-61 deep water torpedoes, and the Gadjah Mada can just rush him and kill him irrespective of smoke and hydro. (These two ship types are just intended as examples; these points will hold true for many other ships as well.)

 

4 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Also, don't alert the cv of his planes being spotted by a dd.

 

I vote yes to this. As it is now, the low air detection radius for destroyers is mainly a test of patience for the CV captain, which luckily most of them fail since they usually can't be bothered to start flying in circles to locate the hidden destroyer that they know is currently watching them with the kind of stoic misery that comes from many nights of fun and engaging CV/DD interaction.

 

A nice and nuanced thread, Captain @loppantorkel, with lots of food for thought!

:Smile_great:

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Vor 3 Stunden, invicta2012 sagte:

Destroyer torpedoes should do more damage per hit and therefore be more likely to cause flooding than carrier borne ones. (The warhead of an IJN Aerial torpedo was around 75% of the size of a standard Type 93).  Carrier borne torps should have a better chance of inflicting temporary damage on ship modules - this is less of a problem for Destroyers as they generally equip the LS captain skill; BBs generally look more towards fire prevention. As the Bismarck found out, a single carrier hit to a significant system can be a real problem. 

 

Carrier borne torpedo planes should be part of larger wings with more widely spaced combs in order to be more effective against larger ships and more easily dodged by small ships such as destroyers. Rocket plane dispersion should be significantly widened at all tiers. 

 

Allow Destroyers to switch between torpedo load outs in game, not just in the module screen, and provide a wider range of options to the DD player. These were weapons which could be adjusted for speed and range in battle, it should be possible in game. 

 

Increase the duration of the "single ship spotting" effect of radar by 50%. 

 

 

Why not removing rockets? Give them he bombs instead. Much harder to use. Rockets are just brain dead anyways. 

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12 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

I don't think I like this idea, to be honest. Making smoke less effective for the destroyer employing it, seems counter-intuitive from a pro-destroyer point of view, in my opinion. There are many ways to flush out a destroyer that goes into smoking mode, and when I - for once - manage to place myself in a good smoke-firing position, and have the luxury of allies to spot for me, I really don't want that moment to be ruined. So while I can see the reason for your suggestion, I vote no to this.

This idea wouldn't affect the gameplay of dds as much as you think it would, I think. The smoke firing penalty of dds are extremely low and for a torp dd to move in to spot, he has to take some serious risk. I'm not saying it needs to be in, but I think the current aspect of smoke firing penalty mostly only affects cruisers and bbs. I wouldn't mind seeing this looked at and considered. Some dds - the hydro ones - are more or less exempt from this already.

 

12 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

 

Hell, no! Let the Pan-Asians keep their gimmicky torpedoes, and let the rest of the gunboat/torpedo boat hybrids live and fight on in the way that nature intended! If I'm in my T-61 and happen to be fighting a Gadjah Mada, I know that while I would be hopelessly outclassed in a gun fight, I can still outwit him with my hydro, my smoke and my torpedoes. And if I'm in my Gadjah Mada and face off against a T-61, I know that I must maneuver carefully and pick my moment so that the battle will be decided by guns and not by smoke, hydro and torpedoes. Give the T-61 deep water torpedoes, and the Gadjah Mada can just rush him and kill him irrespective of smoke and hydro. (These two ship types are just intended as examples; these points will hold true for many other ships as well.)

Yea, I'm not thrilled about this either tbh. I like the potential to torp dds and I like the torp dodging aspect.

12 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

A nice and nuanced thread, Captain @loppantorkel, with lots of food for thought!

:Smile_great:

Thank you :Smile_honoring:

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23 minutes ago, Aixin said:

Why not removing rockets? Give them he bombs instead. Much harder to use. Rockets are just brain dead anyways. 

Please accept this Medal of Honour from the Destroyer Preservation Society, in recognition of your laudable efforts on behalf of this beautiful but endangered species! :Smile_medal:

It is stamped from the steel of sunken destroyers - wear it with pride!

 

On a more serious note: While removing rocket planes would indeed make it harder for CV captains to damage destroyers directly, the main problem - namely their power to keep destroyers spotted from the air, allowing their team members to attack them - remains. Also, even rockets can be dodged - and a CV that keeps going after destroyers with rockets, will very likely waste a lot of time hunting this beautiful but elusive specimen instead of bagging more tempting and easy-to-hit targets. I no longer look upon rockets as a big problem, in and of themselves.

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6 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Also, don't alert the cv of his planes being spotted by a dd.

This would be enough to normalize the DD - CV interaction. If a CV player is too stupid worried that he can't find a DD that is closing on him he can just use the RL skill (on ship, not plane).

 

DD players who eat a torpedo shall learn how not to eat it in the future, I vote to keep this as it is. Pain is a good incentive for learning, see hand - oven interaction. No bias here, I'm always hungry for unnecessary torpedoes. 

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7 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Also, don't alert the cv of his planes being spotted by a dd.

Some interesting ideas - excellent post, sir!

 

The above is the critical change that's needed, IMO; as @Procrastes says, the key problem with CVs is their ability to spot (yes, a good player will sink you, but there aren't many of those, and a good cruiser player will kill you all kinds of dead just the same) - removing the planes' spotted warning would give DDs a fighting chance to sneak away (perhaps increase the aerial spotting range slightly, so finding DDs doesn't become entirely impossible for the CVs).

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7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

make DDs incapable of attacking each other

They made it in a semi way - deep water torps. 

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I have RPF on all my DD’s it certainly helps in several ways but as mentioned in the OP it does kill enjoyment.

 

Since the latest updates I find DD / CV interaction less of an issue, sector AA regen is a big improvement, having Kidd and Gearing helps but even with weaker AA DDs I’m knocking down more planes, As a CV skipper I’m getting more attack runs in, obviously there are some ships with a stupid amount of AA like the Smolensk where my planes insta vanish so these aren’t attacked, MM is still the biggest bug bear though, I’ve always felt it should be +/- 1 level especially for Cvs. 
 

You also see a lot less bore athons, where cvs hide at opposite ends of the map spamming planes while the rest of the 2 fleets have long gone.

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Concentrated AA towards magical replenishing CV planes had a massive nerf in power, maybe we should have a nerf to concentrated incoming fire for our DD without magical heals!

 

Yes, thats a joke, but equally ridiculous. On a serious note though, at least remove rocket planes and the detected message for planes and see how much better it is.

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22 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Make all torps deep water. I love sinking those dds in smoke with my shima, but to be fair, dd health is so low that one torp usually is enough to put a dd out of battle and I'm not sure it's great for the game. Maybe it would be better if gun dds went back to hunting torp dds instead of farming bbs from smoke, and torp dds focused on the larger vessels.

Most of the suggestions posted have been around in one form or another. There is nothing in here that hasn't already been suggested to WG, including the 'Don't alert a plane that a DD can spot it'.


But replacing all torps with DWT is a new one. That would in one swoop make all torp-centric DDs incapable of defending themselves against DDs and Cruisers. No longer is there any danger at all in approaching a smoke cloud in order to deal with the DD in there if you're a DD or cruiser. It cuts both ways. Not a good idea.

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2 minutes ago, Kysmet said:

Most of the suggestions posted have been around in one form or another. There is nothing in here that hasn't already been suggested to WG, including the 'Don't alert a plane that a DD can spot it'.


But replacing all torps with DWT is a new one. That would in one swoop make all torp-centric DDs incapable of defending themselves against DDs and Cruisers. No longer is there any danger at all in approaching a smoke cloud in order to deal with the DD in there if you're a DD or cruiser. It cuts both ways. Not a good idea.

Normal deep water torps hits cruisers too. So, it would be gun dds getting a clear upper hand on the torp dds, perhaps as it should be. Even so, I'm not sure it's a good suggestion. As explained above, I enjoy the torp fighting aspect in dd fights.

 

The 'mostly old' stuff suggested is true, except from the viewpoint shifted from 'pls fix/remove cvs' to maybe see what can be altered in dds to make them fit a cv meta better. Hence 'dd-rework'. One thing won't be enough, but a slight overhaul. Again, I kind of doubt it's needed, but it's a discussion forum and it doesn't hurt with another point of view.

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I must say, as a DD main player I do agree or at least can see the benefit of most of these ideas. Execution will be a problem of course.

If all DDs fire deep water then the Pan Asian line basically becomes redundant since their niche has been removed.

 

That being said.

 

The idea of switching between Torps on the fly could work.

Similar to HE or AP shells. Switching from fast, short ranged torpedoes to long range, slower torpedo's or even say switching to a different depth for the flavor of a Deep Water variety can work, in my opinion, very well. If we take the same mechanic of reloading a main battery it simply involves a reload of the Torpedo launchers meaning it's more forward planning and reading the map and lineups than instantly changing cos you have a cruiser storming into your smoke and want fast Torps he can't miss.

 

I have never understood why we have to select which variety of torp before the game starts which defines the playstyle and aggressiveness from start to finish. Yet some ships who play dramatically different when firing HE than when firing AP don't select shell types prior to game start and can switch on the fly as the situation develops.

_______

 

CV and DD relations have always been a touchy subject. I play the occasional CV myself so can see both sides. 

I like the suggestion of less detectability by air. And think if done well this can be the only real change required to counter CVs in a DD

 

 A CV does often hinder your ability to scout, cap or even move without cruiser cover in most situations and if you are primaried by a CV it's almost always goodnight unless you find a bubble of AA to help out. Rockets in particular are one major factor of this. Torpedoes you can turn into, bombs can be predicted and avoided if your on the ball. Rockets are tricky, in my opinion anyway.

 

Being a wee bit more hidden from the air gives DD players more breathing room to actually play. They will still have to adjust their playstyle to accommodate the potential death from above but can still hunt, scout and cap as normal.

 

I play differently when I know there is a radar or hydro in the vicinity but not to the point where I dislike games with cruisers in because they chip my paint. So why can we not Balance the DD and CV grievance.

 

Padawan:Smile_popcorn:

 

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