380mm guns nerf after the plating changes

[VanD4rk]

Hello, I know this are not news but I have not seen any discussions directly to this topic.

Short info: after the plating changes the BBs with 380mm guns will no longer be able to penetrate the plating of the cruisers(most of the cruisers).

This will affect the silver ships, Premium ships sold for money and the reward ships which currently is just the Bourgogne +JB which is half prem half reward.

Imo this is a direct nerf to them just like it was some years ago done to detection by  firing from smoke to all ships that were build around that feature, and WG gave some compensation for that.

I have not seen any kind of announcement regarding some 

Being a 40% BB and 40% CA player, and owning premium/reward BBs this change is so-so for me, but this raises the question about premium ships getting directly nerfed, and more than this about the balance of the game.

Taking it from the gameplay this change will make the shots with 380mm from medium to long range on a cruiser that is maneuvering/or being static(as an island hugger) on it's plating to ricochet. This can be small or big depending on the situation.

Personally I would like that the plating changes to not hit the game and if they hit, maybe WG could give a percent of compensation from the value of this ships as doubloons/coal/steel, or spare this guns so they can pen the 30mm deck.

 

I made a poll about this, please express your votes and opinions about this.

 

Short clarification about this:

- changes are reffering to the UPPER plating armor and NOT bow/aft armor of the cruiser.

- right now 380mm/14.3(overmatch constant) = 26.57mm  overmatch penetration meaning that plunging fire can overmatch Cruiser that right now have 25mm Upper plating.

- most of the high tier cruisers will have improved UPPER plating armor from 25 to 27/30mm which will make the plunging fire from medium to long range of the 380mm guns to ricochet

 

 

 

 

[Panocek]

WG doesn't want you to play with puny 380mm, you need to go bigger comrade

[Yedwy]

@OP you mean you wont be able to overmatch some ships at mid and high tiers that you could before? I am not aware the AP penetration as such is changing?

[Flock_Undead]

1 minute ago, Yedwy said:

@OP you mean you wont be able to overmatch some ships at mid and high tiers that you could before? I am not aware the AP penetration as such is changing?

And you are right with that assumption.

 

The only thing that makes 380mm worse now is the fact that the IFHE rework will buff lots of Cruisers nose plating over or onto 27mm which makes them not overmatch-able.

[ColonelPete]

This will only affect heavily angled plating.

27mm plating is easy to pen outside the ricochet angles.

 

When the performance of some 380mm gun ships goes down too much, WG needs to improve these ships.

[kfa]

Why dont you make a poll about all light cruisers losing 50% fire chance??? 

This rework is the biggest BB buff since the stealth fire removal, nothing else. 

[VanD4rk]

1 minute ago, Yedwy said:

@OP you mean you wont be able to overmatch some ships at mid and high tiers that you could before? I am not aware the AP penetration as such is changing?

Yes. The changes will give cruisers at high tier 30mm deck armor( I am not talking about the penetration to bow/aft which will be the same).

Some of those cruisers have 25 mm plating and applying the 14.3 overmatch rule they could have been penetrated until now by plunging fire on the deck by 380mm guns.

Once they get 27 or 30mm that will be impossible.

380mm/14.3=26.57mm overmatch right now.

[Yedwy]

So its as I thought, well I am fine with it, cant say I have trouble doing damage with my 15" and I wont have much even after changes as I tend to fire (usually french ones) them into broadsides and from mid range and they are quite devastating

[fumtu]

4 minutes ago, Flock_Undead said:

And you are right with that assumption.

 

The only thing that makes 380mm worse now is the fact that the IFHE rework will buff lots of Cruisers nose plating over or onto 27mm which makes them not overmatch-able.

No new cruiser will get 27mm bow, only US and German cruisers will have 27mm, rest will have either 25mm or 16mm. Upper belt and central deck armour will be, in most cases, increased instead. 

[VanD4rk]

3 minutes ago, kfa said:

Why dont you make a poll about all light cruisers losing 50% fire chance??? 

This rework is the biggest BB buff since the stealth fire removal, nothing else. 

You have a choice between HE penetration dmg and fire chance, so I think it is ok. 

The rework will help the heavily armored and heavy guns BBs, not all of them so I don't think this is the "biggest BB buff" since the stealth removal, which was more cancerous than anything imo.

I would have simply nerfed the IFHE skill to -50% or -75% and leave all the same for this rework, just my opinion about this.

Right now I made the poll about this topic because I have not seen anything about it and I have an interest about it and I am sure there are a lot of players who bought prem ships with 380mm guns.

This nerf is not the end of the world for those ships in question but it will decrease their performance to some degree.

 

 

[Flock_Undead]

9 minutes ago, fumtu said:

No new cruiser will get 27mm bow, only US and German cruisers will have 27mm, rest will have either 25mm or 16mm. Upper belt and central deck armour will be, in most cases, increased instead. 

Which makes that also non overmatchable.

 

 

@kfa

 

The reason why noone complains is because there is nothing to complain about.

 

Its a damn choice mate.

 

You either take Fire Damage, or you take Straight HE damage (where you still have a chance of getting fire btw, you're acting like the fire chance is removed entirely.)

But in the end, its really easy to complain when you are in the receiving end is it not ?

 

 

And i feel like noone really likes HE spammers anyway except for the Damage hungry stat padders.

[Yedwy]

It will decrease the 15" effectivnes in certain situations, yes. Enough for a reparation? IDK, doubtful TBH

[DFens_666]

You assume for some reason, that Cruiser will suddenly all be angling against you. Thats not the case. Do you constantly shoot angled Cruisers now? I dont think so. They present broadside often enough. And f.e. a Bourgogne in TX only MM (which happens quite often right now) is already fighting many Cruisers with 30mm plating.

So while i disagree with the IFHE/Plating change in general, i dont see a reason to give compensation for the changes.

 

Also are you familiar with overmatch mechanics? Its 14,3 for everyone, even if 380mm guns would have highest pen in the game, they would still ricochet against 27mm armor if angled.

[Flock_Undead]

2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Also are you familiar with overmatch mechanics? Its 14,3 for everyone, even if 380mm guns would have highest pen in the game, they would still ricochet against 27mm armor if angled.

Yeah this is also a very big misconception.

 

You could give 380mm Caliber Guns the pen of the Yashima and it wouldnt change anything because the caliber is still too small.

[Jethro_Grey]

WG should scrap the current Iteration of the IFHE rework and put a lot more thought into it before attempting to start a new one. 

[Captain_Newman]

1 minute ago, Jethro_Grey said:

WG should scrap the current Iteration of the IFHE rework and put a lot more thought into it before attempting to start a new one. 

 

Putting lots of thought into things before they are released into live is not the WG way.

 

Example: El2a correctly predicted that the planes would basically become invulnerable in the current arms race ranked season weeks before it was released. Apparently players like him actually understand the game better than it's creators. There's a reason why every major decision they've made for the past 2 years has been a massive dumpster fire.

[VanD4rk]

4 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Also are you familiar with overmatch mechanics? Its 14,3 for everyone, even if 380mm guns would have highest pen in the game, they would still ricochet against 27mm armor if angled.

If you would have read my other comments you would have already a response to that.

 

I have not put the calculation in the main post since I assumed that people know I was refering to the upper belt and not nose/aft parts of the cruisers.

So only 2 scenarios are affecting this: 

1. The cruiser is kiting away from medium range and the 380mm can't overmatch the upper plating

2. The cruiser is bow tanking and it will ricochet the 380mm that hit it's upper plating.

Buffing the penetration will not solve the problem( and by doing that will make the ships maybe too strong hiting broadside ships) , just slightly improve the overmatch threshold.

But this is debatable.

[fumtu]

10 minutes ago, Flock_Undead said:

Which makes that also non overmatchable.

 

Yes but in your post you said nose plating, which means bow armour and which would not change to 27mm. Also just because you can't overmatch upper amour it doesn't mean that you can't pen it. It only means that now cruiser, if angled properly could bounce shells on the upper belt armour which now would be overmatched, in some cases, by 380mm guns. But you can still target cruiser bow and can overmatch it, unless it is 27mm. Yes this will impact 380mm guns but how much we will see. So I don't see any need jump to some conclusion. If some ships suffer because of these changes, WG could buff every single ship in some regard to compensate for it. But doing that even before it is know how much will  this impact those ships would be premature and unnecessary. 

[Flock_Undead]

6 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Yes but in your post you said nose plating, which means bow armour and which would not change to 27mm. Also just because you can't overmatch upper amour it doesn't mean that you can't pen it. It only means that now cruiser, if angled properly could bounce shells on the upper belt armour which now would be overmatched, in some cases, by 380mm guns. But you can still target cruiser bow and can overmatch it, unless it is 27mm. Yes this will impact 380mm guns but how much we will see. So I don't see any need jump to some conclusion. If some ships suffer because of these changes, WG could buff every single ship in some regard to compensate for it. But doing that even before it is know how much will  this impact those ships would be premature and unnecessary. 

Thanks for your enlightenement.

 

But i dont think anyone here said that you cant "pen" them anymore or implied that.

I think its pretty clear what we meant and why it is a problem with the current iteration of the IFHE Rework.

[HaachamaShipping]

Because having shells bounce off the midesction is the greatest nerf ever, not like you have to content with that to some degree anyway. On the other hand, less fires and if we look at who gets affected, Germans get secondary buffs that partly make their secondaries more viable at penning other BBs than the light cruiser guns of their tier (Gneisenau vs Helena) and British can just load HE and meme on angled cruisers that need IFHE to pen them. French only get a buff vs lower tier cruisers, but should they suffer too much, WG will buff them, don't worry. Just look how WG immediatly addressed the fact USN decks might get penned, while the buff to Atlanta/Flint is 0.1s reload in exchange for becoming garbage and the other mid-tier cruisers like Dallas, Budyonny, Helena, Shchors, etc get nothing, because why would they deserve any compensation?

[Panocek]

52 minutes ago, VanD4rk said:

Yes. The changes will give cruisers at high tier 30mm deck armor( I am not talking about the penetration to bow/aft which will be the same).

Some of those cruisers have 25 mm plating and applying the 14.3 overmatch rule they could have been penetrated until now by plunging fire on the deck by 380mm guns.

Once they get 27 or 30mm that will be impossible.

380mm/14.3=26.57mm overmatch right now.

30mm plating on other hand is "just right" to arm 430mm+ guns at extreme angles while overmatching said plating

[Jethro_Grey]

25 minutes ago, Captain_Newman said:

 

Putting lots of thought into things before they are released into live is not the WG way.

 

Example: El2a correctly predicted that the planes would basically become invulnerable in the current arms race ranked season weeks before it was released. Apparently players like him actually understand the game better than it's creators. There's a reason why every major decision they've made for the past 2 years has been a massive dumpster fire.

Nothing WG has done in the past 1 1/2 years balance wise, new ships wise or event wise, has shown even a hint of even a rudimentary thought. 

 

So, my Suggestion to WG would be: buy a few pot plants. According to a study, pot plants show signs of intelligence under certain circumstances. 

Also, they look nice and why wouldn't WGs DEVS/ balans department increase their IQ by 1 to a grand total of 1? 

[Odo_Toothless]

When meta is changing, people will stop playing ships which fall behind. Then after few months WG will probably apply some changes. I for example will ignore VI-VII CL. As We know, there is no other way then to adapt.

[Sargento_YO]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Also are you familiar with overmatch mechanics? Its 14,3 for everyone, even if 380mm guns would have highest pen in the game, they would still ricochet against 27mm armor if angled.

I really wonder about what the whole overmatch thing means.

[Ze_Reckless]

2 hours ago, kfa said:

Why dont you make a poll about all light cruisers losing 50% fire chance??? 

This rework is the biggest BB buff since the stealth fire removal, nothing else. 

In addition to what the others said, this isn't a BB buff. It's a small nerf for CLs when they fight CAs. Right now every light cruiser can wipe the floor with a same tier heavy cruiser. Hell, even a Harugumo will melt CAs.

BBs will still burn the same (+2%) if you play without IFHE.

Or pick this skill to do more direct damage to cruisers and some BBs and get less fires as it was supposed to be when IFHE was introduced.

The only thing I don't understand is why it took them so long.