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Furius_Marius

Problem with japanese Premium BBs

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Hello to everybody!

 

I consider myself an average player. I'm playing from may 2019. I mainly play battleships, but sometimes cruisers and CVs too.

I have the full line of Japanese BB, Soviet BB, American till N.Carolina and German till FDG.

Cruisers I have full Soviet cruisers and Japanese and Italian till VII. British till VI.

 

I love the design of japanese ships. But i think the japanese premium Battleships are in general very bad. Some good. Any great. The proof of that its that you see very few of them in randoms. 

 

Japan got:

Ishizuchi: at most a good ship. Nothing more

Mutsu: Okeish. quite average.

Ashitaka: Great guns (but with some of the new ships more complex armour designs tends to overpen a lot.) at mid-close range sometimes dispersion gets weird, paper armour (you can get deleted by accident). Non existent AA.

Kii: In my opinion its a worst Amagi.

Musashi: The best premium jap BB. But just a worst Yamato (and Yamato have nowadays a lot of problems) a tier less. You will burn a lot. But still a good ship. (.But one i cant get anymore)

Yashima: without changes seems like a really worst Yamato. Same long list of yamato weak points. And less shells, worst reload, worst shell speed.

 

Soviets got:

Lenin as a Great premium bb.

 

British got:

 

Thunderer as a great premium BB.

And Nelson as a very good BB

 

Americans got:

Georgia: Great ship.

Missouri: Very good.

Ohio: GREAT ship.

Massachusetts: Very good ship.

Alabama: Very good ship.

 

 

French got:

Jean Bart: Great ship.

Bourgogne: Great ship.

 

Well... you got the idea. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Ex Soviet/Russian Company. 

Tsushima. 

That's all you need to know when it comes to why Japanese battleships suck. The Mikasa, the ship that lead the IJN at Tsushima, is nought but a meme in game. 

Also powercreep. 

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1 minute ago, Furius_Marius said:

Yashima: without changes seems like a really worst Yamato. Same long list of yamato weak points. And less shells, worst reload, worst shell speed.

You mean, the never-live-tested-and-still-wip-Shikishima (!) is worse? Interesting. 

BTW; Where are the german ships in your listing? 

In addition: I don't see a reason, why Missouri (despite credits and no longer available) is on your list on same level as Massachusetts. And why you put Alabama as "very good", too. 

BTW - not meant rude - I checked your stats and did not see you play any of the mentioned ships - that makes me curious: Did you ever touch one of them? 

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Yashima: For that I said seems like it will be.

 

And some of my friends got the premium Americans I mention.

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19 minutes ago, Furius_Marius said:

Musashi: The best premium jap BB. But just a worst Yamato (and Yamato have nowadays a lot of problems) a tier less. You will burn a lot. But still a good ship. (.But one i cant get anymore) 

 

19 minutes ago, Furius_Marius said:

Missouri: Very good. 

 

Missouri is also not available anymore. So to make a fair judgement, you should mention both.

 

Anyway. I kindly disagree with a lot of your calls. How is Alabama very good? or Massachusetts? Massa is fun, sure, IF you get the right mm and the enemys play in your cards. Ever tried to do something in a T10 game where the enemys move as a pulk around the map? You will do absolutly nothing. If you are full sec build (which is the only was Massa makes sense, else you play the North Ca, which is then straight out the better ship), you cant withstand focus fire, even with fast heal. So she is situational, which makes her average at best. Not a bad ship but 100 % not top notch.

 

btw - how do you come to those conclusions:

24 minutes ago, Furius_Marius said:

Thunderer as a great premium BB.

Ashitaka: Great guns (but with some of the new ships more complex armour designs tends to overpen a lot.) at mid-close range sometimes dispersion gets weird, paper armour (you can get deleted by accident). Non existent AA.

when you have more then double the damage on Ashitaka compared to Thunderer? And its T7 vs T10 ship...

 

26 minutes ago, Furius_Marius said:

Ishizuchi: at most a good ship. Nothing more

 

Its, for me, one of the best T4 BBs, on the same level as Orion and Nikolai. What she lacks in tankiness she makes up with guns and speed. Its an outstanding ship.

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Nothing wrong with Musashi. Really. Imagine seeing that in a Tier VII cruiser. 

 

But generally... yes. I am looking at the Premium shop with doubloons and coal in pocket thinking... Thunderer? Georgia? Massachusetts? Tirpitz? Lenin? There's nothing IJN in the "must have" category.

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Musashi is still the best T9 BB, i dont care about any filthy Georgia or Jean Bart. 

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5 minutes ago, kfa said:

Musashi is still the best T9 BB, i dont care about any filthy Georgia or Jean Bart. 

She seems the best when it comes to camp fires :Smile_trollface:

 

 

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I agree (I have one, it is very the fun), but Mutsu? Ashitaka? Kii? No-one seems keen. I know there are still some IJN BB possibilities out there... the Ise Class (rebuilt with lots of planes for eternal long-range spotting), or perhaps one of Kii's sisters - a more tanky Omi?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Mutsu? Ashitaka? Kii? 

 

No? I love then all three tbh 

 

Ashitaka is one of my overall favourites 

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1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

No? I love then all three tbh 

 

Ashitaka is one of my overall favourites 

 

And here we see an example why ships/lines/nations are different and SHOULD be different. Some people like this, others that. You cant like everything, because they play different. Some suit your playstyle others dont. Lets keep it that way. Directed at @Furius_Marius.

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11 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Ashitaka is one of my overall favourites 

Good to know. I can see an LWM review for Kii which says "gudbote". I have a recommendation for Mutsu in Tier VI Ops. But I don't see these ships in game.  They must lack something....

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1 hour ago, Furius_Marius said:

Japan got:

Ishizuchi: at most a good ship. Nothing more

Mutsu: Okeish. quite average.

Ashitaka: Great guns (but with some of the new ships more complex armour designs tends to overpen a lot.) at mid-close range sometimes dispersion gets weird, paper armour (you can get deleted by accident). Non existent AA.

Musashi: The best premium jap BB. But just a worst Yamato (and Yamato have nowadays a lot of problems) a tier less. You will burn a lot. But still a good ship. (.But one i cant get anymore)

How can this be very bad? You are contradicting yourself...

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1 hour ago, Furius_Marius said:

Japan got:

Ishizuchi: at most a good ship. Nothing more

Mutsu: Okeish. quite average.

Ashitaka: Great guns (but with some of the new ships more complex armour designs tends to overpen a lot.) at mid-close range sometimes dispersion gets weird, paper armour (you can get deleted by accident). Non existent AA.

Kii: In my opinion its a worst Amagi.

Musashi: The best premium jap BB. But just a worst Yamato (and Yamato have nowadays a lot of problems) a tier less. You will burn a lot. But still a good ship. (.But one i cant get anymore)

Yashima: without changes seems like a really worst Yamato. Same long list of yamato weak points. And less shells, worst reload, worst shell speed.

 

Soviets got:

Lenin as a Great premium bb.

 

British got:

 

Thunderer as a great premium BB.

And Nelson as a very good BB

 

Americans got:

Georgia: Great ship.

Missouri: Very good.

Ohio: GREAT ship.

Massachusetts: Very good ship.

Alabama: Very good ship.

 

 

French got:

Jean Bart: Great ship.

Bourgogne: Great ship.

 

Well... you got the idea. 

Calling the Musashi just a worse Yamato is silly. It's a worse Yamato at T9. All the hp, armour and overmatch 100% preserved, just less accurate (still more accurate than half the other T9s), less AA (as if Yamato holds off much and you still get fighter plane) and less turret traverse.

Ishizuchi is the most stupid T4 BB that isn't Russian, out-HEing Orion since Orion got nerfed.

Mutsu is fragile, but having decent overmatch guns and speed at T6 isn't bad.

Kii is very much a sidegrade to Amagi.

 

Meanwhile, Alabama gets praised for basically being straight up worse than NC except for better torp protection?

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1 hour ago, Furius_Marius said:

I love the design of japanese ships. But i think the japanese premium Battleships are in general very bad. Some good. Any great. The proof of that its that you see very few of them in randoms. 

 

Did you check the other premium BBs from other nations?

How about DoY/Vanguard? They are pretty bad, certainly worse than Ashitaka and Kii imo. Mutsu on the other hand, seems to be the strongest T6 BB by WR and damage.

Gascogne is rather bad too, atleast from what ive heard. Or Roma, is it really good? Sure, some like it, others dont.

 

Or your Ashitaka analysis: You did play Nelson, but Nelson is ofc awesome. Yet it has horrendously bad armor too, id say worse than Ashitaka. Show broadside: MultiCitadels. But ofc you arent safe from bow-citadels either, since your citadel is so huge.

 

Tier for tier, id rate these ships the strongest:

- Bourgogne

- Musashi

- Probably Lenin, alltho i dont have it, but i think its the strongest. Massa is certainly strong too. All other T8 premium BBs are pretty meh in my book

- Nelson, but its not easy to play. Scharnhorst is good too.

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1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

I have a recommendation for Mutsu in Tier VI Ops. But I don't see these ships in game.  They must lack something....

Mutsu doesn't lack anything, the reason why you don't see her that often is her quirkiness (sniper with short-range torpedoes) and the Fuso exists. When I want to play a tier 6 BB Fuso is my first pick. Mutsu is extremely squishy, even worse so in tier 8 battles. However, she was a blast to play in ranked sprint, strong guns and hilarious torpedo kills on smoked DDs. :fish_haloween:

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I'm reading this, and I'm going :Smile_facepalm:.

 

One thing is to discuss IJN BB between IJN BBs

Other is to Discuss IJN BBs between others BBs

 

When talking about IJN BBs, the first thing that comes in my mind it's Kongo and Fuso...

 

Calling IJN BBs best in class, it's a bit stretchy .

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Also you forgot to mention

RN

Warspite : very good

Hood : mediocre BB

Duke of York :  good one

Vanguard : pretty good

French

Dunkek : omg so bad

Gascogne : very meh unfortunately and situational

USN

West Virginia : very good for her tier (AA is non existent like on Mutsu)

Texas : good 

Soviet 

Oct Revolution : good ship

Poltava : bad 

Nikolai : Great ship

ofc this is only my opinion and you can disagree. 

Also Kii isn't bad at all, I like to play it. Ashitaka is good too but needs more careful play. Mutsu is ok but if you have West Virginia that has better pen... Then I stopped playing it. 

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Ze_Reckless said:

Mutsu is extremely squishy,

Especially get rudder. It can be broken by RN BB HE all the time. 

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There's a difference between "works well" and "unexciting", I suppose. The IJN has a problem in the sense that all the famous ships - Yamato, Musashi, Kirishima, Hiei, etc - have been done and none of the available names have much of a draw (although they might work from a gameplay perspective). Maybe then need pink camos and anime captains to be popular?

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10 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Good to know. I can see an LWM review for Kii which says "gudbote". I have a recommendation for Mutsu in Tier VI Ops. But I don't see these ships in game.  They must lack something....

 

A lot of people were salty that Ashitaka and Mutsu were A-Hulls in their prior life.

 

I for one love Dreadnoughts and don’t mind weak AA. Both are more or less glass cannons and indeed a little special. Certainly not the all-around-comfy boats but great fun if you get used to them.

 

Kii is basically an Amagi which just looks better 

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11 hours ago, CptBarney said:

She seems the best when it comes to camp fires :Smile_trollface:

 

 

They're all the same when it comes to fire resistance but Yamato is more resistant to HE damage.

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OP has the point, IJN BBs and IJN tree in general lack any seriously strong ships. There are some exceptions (Zao, Yamato, the whole Akizuki line, can be very strong, when mastered), but in general all other countries have some truly potent vessels. If t you take a look at the statistics, the only IJN ship that somewhat excels at its tier is Kitakaze (3rd top damage among T9 DDs, yet only 7-th top winrate). At no other tier and class an IJN vessel is among the top performers.

 

This is quite strange that also IJN premium ships are lacking, from those that are available now only Atago is probably good (it has bad winrate, but it is one of the oldest premiums in game), while many others are often one of the worst ships at their tiers. Many of these premiums are very rare, probably driven by players who really know why they bough the ship, e.g. Yahagi  is the least played Tier 5 premium, probably that's why it has seemingly good performance. This is weird, since WG loses a lot of the potential revenue by refusing to buff those weak premiums.

 

And to address some myths that have been posted here: Ashitaka is together with Nagato the third and second worst performing BBs on Eu server, only Colorado is worse. Kii is a very rare premium (even Roma is more popular) for a reason, the 'gudbote' mark it got before CV rework when it had truly outstanding AA. Now the AA of Kii is below both silver and premium US battleships. Compare the statistics of Kii with Massachusetts, that is enough to end the discussion.

 

Massa may be removed from sales in the future, as it is performing way over the silver ships. Only Vladivostok is better, but it is of balans, komrad player.

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2 minutes ago, Vbeest said:

Yahagi  is the least played Tier 5 premium, probably that's why it has seemingly good performance.

Yahagi is actually a very good little cruiser, but people were expecting something OP and then the hype died when they saw her torpedo firing angles. It is also in competition with Furutaka, which is a very strong all-round Tier V. This is generally the problem with IJN ships - the good ones are all in the Tech Tree line.

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