Long Range Battle

[Tatsfield]

I have been playing T.VI and VII BBs for a while now as I enjoy the level of play in these tiers.  However I do have T.VIII and IX BBs and today I decided I would see if I liked playing them again.  I took out  a T.IX - FDG in a Random battle to see how I remembered it.  The main battery range is considerably greater than that of my favourite T.VIs and so I maintained a relatively safe range of 18-20+ kms and fired on targets of opportunity.  I made some hits and had to relearn leading distances for higher tier enemy ships and then during the battle I started to receive very childish insults from one of my team mates using terms such as  "camper", although I was in plain sight and stayed away from islands.  I always feel that the use of these sort of terms is unnecessary and offensive and the individual then proceeded to track my position and demand that  the rest of the team reported me for something inexplicit.  I admit that for my first outing in anything bigger than a T.VII my shooting wasn't as accurate as usual but I did hit a citadel and was satisfied that my mediocre score didn't actually hamper the team which won comfortably.

 

My question is this.  Should I take the sort of response I received from this somewhat immature player as representative of the attitudes of all players in this game towards long range battle?  Is it really necessary for large capital ships to dodge and weave at close quarters as if they were DDs?  In T.VI I often join close quarter battle but I also get sunk a lot.  So is it really some sort of sin to capitalise on powerful long range guns and try to engage the enemy from as safe a distance as can be achieved?  I'll not be offended if I receive considered appraisal which is counter to my tactics but I need to know whether the 15 year old who ranted about my play does so from the safety of widely held public opinion or if he just always thinks that all ships should get as close as possible and I should ignore this sort of criticism.  Is there an accepted battle style for BBs that generally improves their chances of successfully helping their team and winning battles?  Why is long range gunnery not seen as a positive attribute for the BB class?  I'm not opening myself to be insulted here, just to gain some understanding of gameplay style and attitude of serious players.

[ColonelPete]

33 minutes ago, Tatsfield said:

 

I was criticised when I was at long range and so my questions here are about long range battle.  Whatever I did or didn't do subsequently wasn't relevant to long range battle.  I asked for advice about tactics and play style, not whether I was justifiably abused.  I do want to know about shooting from 18-20 km and that is what I asked.  How close to cruisers and DDs should I allow my vessel to deliberately come?  Once a DD gets to within 5 km of my BB, There seems little that I can do to engage with any armament that traverses fast enough or loads fast enough to assume a realistic defence against swarms of torps.  Should BBs retreat when they come within the range of lesser ships especially those armed with torpedoes?   Is there an optimum range where enough shells in a salvo are likely to hit while the ship is far enough away to deprive the target of a chance to fully retaliate?  Is there a range at which enough shells hit and enough salvos can be fired to be likely to cause the same damage as one close range salvo? 

 

I ask these questions because while no one complains about CVs operating at extreme ranges and often hidden behind islands, any attempt to use range to a BB's advantage seems to upset non BB skippers.  Why is that?  I actually like the idea and the practice of trying to hit a moving target at a long range.  It's like sniping and gives a sense of satisfaction if successful but I won't do it if anyone thinks that it really puts my team at a disadvantage in any way.  I hope this doesn't engender hostility on the forum.

No enough information.

There is a difference in being critcised at 1s of the battle or after 15 minutes staying at 18km+.

 

• a BB at 18km+ km is not really a threat and will often be ignored by the enemy
• FDG is perfect for dealing with DD at 5km, any smart DD player will stay further away from YOU, because YOU are a bigger threat to him than he is to you, at least when you find the Hydro button...
• optimum range depends on BB, position on map and time of battle, for FDG the range should be 10-16km
• it should be obvious that CV do not have the job of taking damage for the team, while BB do have that job
• CV do not lose attack accuracy by staying away from the enemy

[Tatsfield]

Not sure of your meaning.  Is that advice or criticism?  What does "tank" mean?  When you say "a player" are you referring to me?  If so does this method of address cloak some degree of contempt?  "Once again" is really dismissive.  Why be so unfriendly to a serious questioner?  And "a serious questioner" is me!

 

Explain your strategy  and why you would think that conducting the opening of a battle at long range proscribes closing in later in the battle?    I started this thread for discussion not dismissal!  But whatever turns you on.

 

[Verblonde]

1 hour ago, Tatsfield said:

I maintained a relatively safe range of 18-20+ kms and fired on targets of opportunity.

There's your problem right there - very few BBs do anything useful at that distance. You generally need to be closer to tank damage and blap cruisers.

[ColonelPete]

57 minutes ago, Tatsfield said:

Not sure of your meaning.  Is that advice or criticism?  What does "tank" mean?  When you say "a player" are you referring to me?  If so does this method of address cloak some degree of contempt?  "Once again" is really dismissive.  Why be so unfriendly to a serious questioner?  And "a serious questioner" is me!

 

Explain your strategy  and why you would think that conducting the opening of a battle at long range proscribes closing in later in the battle?    I started this thread for discussion not dismissal!  But whatever turns you on.

 

 If you got closer later, you should not write about shooting only from 18-20km.

[Tatsfield]

Quote

If you got closer later, you should not write about shooting only from 18-20km

 

I was criticised when I was at long range and so my questions here are about long range battle.  Whatever I did or didn't do subsequently wasn't relevant to long range battle.  I asked for advice about tactics and play style, not whether I was justifiably abused.  I do want to know about shooting from 18-20 km and that is what I asked.  How close to cruisers and DDs should I allow my vessel to deliberately come?  Once a DD gets to within 5 km of my BB, There seems little that I can do to engage with any armament that traverses fast enough or loads fast enough to assume a realistic defence against swarms of torps.  Should BBs retreat when they come within the range of lesser ships especially those armed with torpedoes?   Is there an optimum range where enough shells in a salvo are likely to hit while the ship is far enough away to deprive the target of a chance to fully retaliate?  Is there a range at which enough shells hit and enough salvos can be fired to be likely to cause the same damage as one close range salvo? 

 

I ask these questions because while no one complains about CVs operating at extreme ranges and often hidden behind islands, any attempt to use range to a BB's advantage seems to upset non BB skippers.  Why is that?  I actually like the idea and the practice of trying to hit a moving target at a long range.  It's like sniping and gives a sense of satisfaction if successful but I won't do it if anyone thinks that it really puts my team at a disadvantage in any way.  I hope this doesn't engender hostility on the forum.

[SirAmra]

7865 battles

Newcomers section

Complains about players complaining he is sniping in his BB.....

Yeah......about that…..

 

[ShinGetsu]

It's pretty sad that you waited to reach 7000 battles and a win ratio of 43% before asking this kind of question.

 

Okay, starting from the beginning :

- What are you playing ? A battleship.

- What is a battleship job ? Let's see. It has a high pool of HP. It has armor. It has big guns. Its job is to support the smaller ship by offering high firepower and soaking damage so they won't die too quickly.

 

There's no "long range battle". In WoWS there are only two possibilities : either you are useful for your team, or you aren't. If you sail at long range and never trying to support your team, and you never get close to the actual objectives, well... you aren't useful.

I'm not saying you should suicide. I'm saying your job is to be USEFUL. Take damage for your cruiser. Aim at priority targets (radar cruisers, destroyers...), or try to deal as much damage as you can in one salvo whenever you see the opportunity. Etc.

 

Right now, your teams are playing with a ship less than the enemy team. Literally. I've went to see your stats and it's... not pretty. Really not pretty.

 

To put things in perspective, those are my stats with tier 9 battleships :

 

It's not exactly impressive, though I'm doing pretty well with the Georgia.

Purple means Excellent stats, blue means very good, green means above average.

 

Now, those are yours :

Big spoiler : Red means... bad.

 

I'm not here to bash you, I'm here to make you understand you're doing pretty much EVERYTHING WRONG. I don't even know where to start.

[Tatsfield]

It's pretty sad that advice cannot be offered without the hostile barbs.  What is it with people on the internet that they treat others in a way that they wouldn't dare to face to face.  If the price of my seeking knowledge is to have to accept supercilious make-yourself--feel-superior jibes and hostile smileys, then it's hardly surprising that I haven't asked questions before.  I enjoy playing this game but I really wanted to have others who like it as much as I do offer advice.  I  asked the question in this section of the forum as I hoped that people would be less judgemental and that others might benefit from a discussion on BB tactics.  How much humiliation does one have to accept to get any help here?

 

I didn't think I would have to have my shortcomings poor battle performance hung around my neck because I asked a question that I hoped would help me improve!  I just wanted to hear whether there was a place for long range battle in WoW.  I didn't any where say that I thought it was a war winning tactic.

 

Quote

.I don't even know where to start

 

Shame as perhaps you might have useful advice.  Being  USEFUL isn't tactical advice.  What you have to say is what is useful.  For all I know sitting far back and shooting at the enemy might have been useful, but apparently it's not.  Being successful in this game seems to be a statistic based upon destruction inflicted.  It takes little account of being useful to your team mates in ways which don't destroy enemy ships.  I always try to accommodate others who ask for help but find this often just gets me sunk.  Believe me, if I hung around on the back line, I'd survive more battles than I do, but I enjoy getting forward.  My poor results are due to my suicidal style of play but when I ask about holding back as a possible change to my play, I find that this is not approved.

 

I intend to see if the belief that long range battle is harmful to the team is actually borne out by deliberately fighting 10 battles at the maximum range of my main guns and fighting another 10 battles where I close with the enemy as quickly as possible.  If you're all correct the difference should be obvious.  I'm not talking about how successful I am personally but what effect it has on the team result.  I'm sure all your comments must be about the effects on the team and not out of any interest in my personal scores, which aren't a high priority for me anyway.

[tsounts]

@Tatsfield As a battleship you will have to absorb punishment in order for destroyers and cruisers of the team to be able to be effective in their own way.  At the same time you must be able to use your concealment and be able to repair the damage you have taken.  Doing so will allow the rest of your team to be "relatively safe" while they have to fulfill their own roles.

[Verblonde]

On 2/25/2020 at 10:20 AM, Tatsfield said:

I was criticised when I was at long range and so my questions here are about long range battle.

It isn't terribly surprising if you were being flamed in game/on the forum for sniping from long range in a BB; most forumites are experienced players (and a lot - not me - are very good at the game), so you may well be suffering from a loss of their sense of humour over something that most of us have seen multiple times before and that has contributed significantly to game losses.

 

Not justifying people being rude, but explaining it (and as someone who has suffered badly from clueless BBs myself, trying to resist the urge to join in).

 

Jolly good, context sorted; what to do about it? Some ideas, from the perspective of someone who needs BBs to function on their team, rather than an expert BB player.

• Join a clan. As soon as possible, and preferably one that has people willing to teach and that uses voice comms (use voice comms yourself - Discord or TS are the common ones, but you can use the in-game one fine). Besides helping you learn, you'll get some worthwhile economic benefits, assuming they haven't been neglecting base development.
• Make sure your minimap is large; the key to being useful in a BB (and most other classes come to that) is situational awareness, and that requires frequent use of the minimap. Keep track of where everyone is; keep a mental note of where concealed enemies are likely to be (especially fat lads who might be able to hit your broadside and sneaky feckers in their DDs); try and learn to project likely future courses of action for the enemy ships e.g. if someone is going to turn to avoid torps, say, it might give you an opportunity to hit them in the broadside, and so on.
• Learn which targets to shoot and in which order; counter-intuitively, you job is often not to shoot BBs, at least not initially - think strategically. For example, if you kill the enemy radar cruisers as early as possible, you give your side's DDs a lot more options (they're your eyes and fat lad killers, assuming they have usable torps); killing enemy DDs does something similar, as well as blinding the enemy and reducing the threat to you personally for their torps. To start with, unless they're silly enough to give you broadside, enemy BBs are often the least of your worries, unless you have nothing else to shoot at.
• Switch ammo types as needed (because of BBs' slow reload, we return again to situational awareness - plan ahead): DDs call for HE, as do skinny cruisers when they're broadside (think Smolensk), and bow-tanking BBs. Your aim is to do as much damage as quickly as possible, and the more that can't be healed (if the target has a heal) the better. Basically, if the ship has a citadel, you want to hit it (beware KM turtlebacks though); this applies even in things with monstrous HE like the RN BBs and means make plenty of use of AP.
• Tank damage; this is key - your aim is not to finish the battle without taking a hit (enable the display that keeps track of potential damage - that'll indicate how you're doing on this front), but to take as much not-damaging fire as possible. If the enemy is shooting at you, they aren't shooting your more fragile mates. Angle your ship, so you aren't getting broadsided, and be prepared to disengage/hide if things get too intense.
• Which leads onto positioning; proper BB players will be able to help more on this, but the idea is to be close enough such that you can actually hit things, but not over-extended such that you can't escape if focused. For most BBs, the sweet spot is somewhere around the surface spotting distance (the circle is shown on your minimap), as your fire should be tolerably accurate at that distance, but you can still go dark when you need to. There is a place for charging the enemy and beating him to death with his own shoes, but pick your spots - you're no good to the team sunk early because you were too manly too early.
• Manage DCP intelligently; things like fires and floods do DoT and it's all healable (although floods do slow you down, arguing in favour of a quick fix). If you're tanking right, you are going to get set on fire - especially - a lot; don't put out the first fire and sometimes not even the second, unless you'll die if you don't. People like me are always looking for BBs that heal the first fire immediately as that means a) idiot and b) we can stack DoT effects - set on fire, they heal, then torp to get floods = *lots* of damage. This talks to the thing about being able to hide too - recall that you can be seen from further away if on fire, so you may need to escape behind an island to go dark (and then heal).
• Speaking of fires, FP is more or less an essential captain skill for the vast majority of BB builds. The effect is greater than the blurb suggests it should be: reducing the number of fire locations from four to three sounds like a reduction in fires by 25%, but it's better than that. The way it works is that the two middle locations combine into one; most players tend to shoot centre mass, so the bulk of their shots land in this (now huge) middle area and it can only be set on fire once. So, against typical players you can spend quite a lot of time with just one fire burning because people don't give you a proper hosing down.
• Play other things besides BBs, particularly DDs and cruisers. You'll get a major insight into how each class works and how they interact with BBs, and what they need from them (and vice versa); it'll also make it harder for these other classes to scrag your BBs when you return to them. This applies to any player, and explains how I know about FP  (last point) - a DD main, who still plays other things now and again. As an example, if you play torp DDs, you'll learn fairly quickly how to make their life much harder when they're trying to torp your BB (spoiler: WASD hacks).
• Make use of Coop mode. Yes I know it smells, but it can provide a good 'lab' for testing things like angling, DCP management etc. Just be mindful that the bots play nothing like real people tend to, so it won't help your tactical development much.
• Play at lower tiers: even though you have a lot of battles, you're basically trying to develop new skills (or hone existing ones) - this is easier in a more manageable threat environment, and that tends to mean lower tiers (not too low though as the earlier BBs get pretty flaky/frustrating).

Hopefully, at least some of that may be of help. If any of it is gibberish, Google iChase's captains academy series on YouTube, and read the wiki: https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/World_of_Warships

[ColonelPete]

Once again a player thinks there is nothing between 6 and 18km and you can only fight at these distances.

 

Yes, it is the job of the BB to tank for the team.

[CptMinia]

Hello,

          a shame to see the somewhat hostile posts. Anyway.

 

@Tatsfield I'd recommend having a glander at some replays on youtube and even informational videos. iChase is a worldofwarships NA player who posts content on youtube, he is currently doing a series of informational videos talking about how to get better at the game. I'll embed the first of those videos below, you can take a look and hopefully take a few things away from that. There are other youtubers you can look towards such as Flamu and Notser, they also have videos helping both new and veteran players amidst their other content showing talking or showing about news, new ships/features, patch updates etc.

 

I also recommend hanging around a clan, whether in discord or just in-game. Some players out there will be happy to help you along and if they are cool to do that in a division with you it'll be even better because they can see how you play.

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Kind regards,

                       Minia

[Tatsfield]

@Verblonde:  Thank you for a great response and for a lot of useful information upon which I am ging to have to concentrate.  Polite, helpful and sharing knowledge.  That's what a forum should provide.  Well done, I am most grateful!  Perhaps one or two people on this forum should take note of how it's done.

 

@CptMinia:  Very useful series of video tutorials.  I'm embarassed to find out how little I had learned of the controls and graphics of this game.  I had no idea who to ask and this guy provides good information without being patronising.  The first episode on Mindset is something a lot of players need to take on board.  I never thought I knew it all but I never realised how little I did know.  Thanks for the link.