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loppantorkel

Nerfing dd but increasing their survivability and effectiveness in cv games - yay or nay?

Nerf dds in non-cv games, but buff their effectiveness in cv games?  

128 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you support this change?

    • Yes
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    • No
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    • Other/undecided/pitchforks
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I think most of us agree that the difference for dds in a cv game compared to a non-cv game is pretty big. I also believe most of us experience that their effectiveness in a dd drops significantly when in a cv game where the enemy cv is very good, or just much better than the friendly cv.

 

However, there might be a case to that dd effectiveness in a non-cv game, especially if the dd/s on the opposing team isn't good, may be a bit too high and often game deciding. Dds have been nerfed on several occasions, and slightly buffed in some other. The radar-timer before the teammates get visual was a pretty good change imo.

 

So to decrease the discrepancy for dds between cv and non-cv games - would you approve some nerfs to dds in terms of effectiveness overall, but significantly increase dd quality of life in cv games. E g, reduce spotting by planes, take away the alert of planes being spotted by dd, or some other changes. The objective would be to somewhat cut off the carry potential of dds in non-cv games while increasing the carry potential and quality of life in cv games. Make the games less dependant on whether you face cvs or not.

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[-LA-]
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I think the game would be better across the board if there was a seperation between targets you can see and targets others are spotting for you, shooting at a target whose location you have just been told should be at a significant accuracy or dispersion penalty , would sto DD's getting jumped on by everyone when spotted by a plane, would allow others to play a little less passive and tone down some of the more egregious HE vomiters

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[DAVY]
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This issue I have with this is that DD's have suffered most with power creep in other classes. Maybe I'm just bad but I very much struggle in non cv games in my old dds. Spotting, radar, sap, smolleys faster shells, better enemy dds.

 

Smacking dds with a global nerf for increased cv survivability isn't going to feel great.  It''ll be like being permanently AA speced, those non cv games are going to feel rough. 

 

DDs can have massive match influence, BUT ONLY WITH TEAM SUPPORT! Nerfing a class that is effectively the team play class is a bad move imho. No ship is more useless than a dd with no support.

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48 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

I think the game would be better across the board if there was a seperation between targets you can see and targets others are spotting for you, shooting at a target whose location you have just been told should be at a significant accuracy or dispersion penalty , would sto DD's getting jumped on by everyone when spotted by a plane, would allow others to play a little less passive and tone down some of the more egregious HE vomiters

 

That would have the opposite effect pretty much:

If i move up (and my team camps behind me), then i get spotted by everyone else directly. Meaning, they all get normal dispersion against me. If id sit in the back, i wouldnt be spotted by everyone, but i wouldnt spot them either. So camping in any form would be even better than it is now, whether by sitting far in the back or hugging an island like your waifu. As an individual, it would be better to not get spotted by several enemies, meaning dont push.

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[B0TS]
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What about a direct nerf/buff that just affects CVs v DDs that would not have any impact in a non CV game?

 

For example:

 

1. Higher level of dispersion on AP/HE rocket planes when attacking a DD.

2. DDs have effective AA across the board, being effective enough to at least make a CV player think twice.

3. If a CV is constantly spotting a DD, after a certain amount of time the AA becomes more effective.

 

Of course that would buff the DD if it was one on one with a CV, so perhaps if a DD is within a certain distance of a CV the AA would return to normal levels.

 

These are just some ideas but, as I said, shouldn’t make a difference in a non-CV game.

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Vor 1 Minute, Zip__ sagte:

2. DDs have effective AA across the board, being effective enough to at least make a CV player think twice.

 

not saying that this is wrong, but most DDs have more AA range than Airdetect range

if DD AA becomes too good, then Unicum DD players could easily deplane CVs while bad players would propably still get killed by rockets

 

certain DDs definitely need a bit more AA in general, but due to their low detection range, DD AA can never exceed a certain level

 

good DD players are already the incredibly influential even if there is a CV in game, so any change that makes Unicums even better needs to be treated carefully

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32 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

That would have the opposite effect pretty much:

If i move up (and my team camps behind me), then i get spotted by everyone else directly. Meaning, they all get normal dispersion against me. If id sit in the back, i wouldnt be spotted by everyone, but i wouldnt spot them either. So camping in any form would be even better than it is now, whether by sitting far in the back or hugging an island like your waifu. As an individual, it would be better to not get spotted by several enemies, meaning dont push.

That's true - the law of unintended consequences I guess.  I wonder if this is why we currently have 12k vis cyclones in CB as a testing thing for spotting?

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[SLAPP]
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They need to do something about the spotting mechanic of cv's and more importantly do something about the stupid rockets.

 

Had a game in the gearing where an Audacious got 2 drops off with rockets.

image.png.44dc3c03f1bce5ccd863293dcbf63e53.png 

How is this balanced?

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The recent torp detection upgrade is already another nerf for DDs, you think more is needed?! :Smile_amazed:

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52 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

That would have the opposite effect pretty much:

If i move up (and my team camps behind me), then i get spotted by everyone else directly. Meaning, they all get normal dispersion against me. If id sit in the back, i wouldnt be spotted by everyone, but i wouldnt spot them either. So camping in any form would be even better than it is now, whether by sitting far in the back or hugging an island like your waifu. As an individual, it would be better to not get spotted by several enemies, meaning dont push.

im not sure, i have gravitated to CV's in no small part because how frustrating playing brawling BB's has become in my experience when i push right now most of the fire i take is coming from behind islands , smoke screens or directed by planes , its not uncommon to die in a tirpitz or kremlin on your way to an island for cover without ever seeing what is shooting at you.

 

just seems to me if people had to maneuver to get mark 1 eyeball they would be covering a lot less actual area and would have to open themselves up to some form of return fire from time to time . i could be wrong of course

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21 minutes ago, IlljustcallhimDave said:

They need to do something about the spotting mechanic of cv's and more importantly do something about the stupid rockets.

 

Had a game in the gearing where an Audacious got 2 drops off with rockets.

image.png.44dc3c03f1bce5ccd863293dcbf63e53.png 

How is this balanced?

IF it werent for the stupid rockets, a lot of glaring issues regarding CV DD gameplay would have not popped up, and DD's could actually have been a direct threat to CV's, especially without the also stupid damage exceptions CV's have been handed, and a lot of stupid solutions would not have had to be pulled out of hairy butt cheecks. There are already a plethora of DD counter measures and features in game that are actually fun for the ones countering the DD.

 

The keyword that describes a lot of CV rework design ideas best still seems to be 'stupid'.

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DD already deal the least damage.

 

The problem is that CV need something to kill DD. They really do. A CV shouldn't be at the mercy of that stupid DD that thought it was smart to go the long way around the map to kill him.

 

CV NEED an anti-Destroyer weapon. 

The problem is how to give them one without overdoing it.

 

Still, I have to remind you that, pre-rework, a CV could do a devastating strike with their torpedo bomber on pretty much ANY DD regardless of what they were doing. 

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2 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

However, there might be a case to that dd effectiveness in a non-cv game

What ? DD is the hardest class to play even without CV and their average DMG not match other classes even without any plane on the sky and You propose another nerf to them :cap_wander_2:? This "carry" potential is very good seen on ranked, when after how their XP for capping was cut, You can barely move to higher rank, becouse it's almost impossible to be at 1 place in table. You can cap and recap as many as You want, but some camping firestarter will be before You.

 

That would be WG "ballance" at its finest like "IFHE rework" for VI and VII tier light cruisers, which will end in VIII/IX without any possbility to pen BB in other parts the superstructure, while having their fire chance cutted in half. Not taking IFHE - You can't pen even many cruisers then :-P.

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36 minutes ago, 22cm said:

The recent torp detection upgrade is already another nerf for DDs, you think more is needed?! :Smile_amazed:

It's only a nerf if other players install the module for it on their ships.

 

most won't use it.

 

And no. I don't think DD needs be nerfed any further against CV.

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Vor 11 Minuten, Odo_Toothless sagte:

What ? DD is the hardest class to play even without CV and their average DMG not match other classes even without any plane on the sky and You propose another nerf to them :cap_wander_2:? This "carry" potential is very good seen on ranked, when after how their XP for capping was cut, You can barely move to higher rank.

But isn't that one of the fundamental problems with DDs?

They are the hardest class to play yet Unicum DD players decide games by themselves?

 

DDs NEED counters or else they would absolutely dominate every game

the problem with CVs is that they hardcounter bad players while doing very little to good players

in other words: The problem is the masive skillgap between good and bad DD players

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3 hours ago, MagicMooby said:

DDs NEED counters or else they would absolutely dominate every game

Radar, hydro, RPF everywhere + severly nerfed flooding and they can dominate ? They are just bugs to crush. I play then rather well and In most cases I do a half of average DMG of ex. VII-X BB. Wow - what a powerful they are ... What a BS is this ?

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3 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

So to decrease the discrepancy for dds between cv and non-cv games - would you approve some nerfs to dds in terms of effectiveness overall, but significantly increase dd quality of life in cv games. E g, reduce spotting by planes, take away the alert of planes being spotted by dd, or some other changes. The objective would be to somewhat cut off the carry potential of dds in non-cv games while increasing the carry potential and quality of life in cv games. Make the games less dependant on whether you face cvs or not.

Sounds good. But the question is "how"?
Even now, a very good DD can evade me (a CV) for a long time. Provided he is not stingy on using smokes (and uses them before I actually spot him).

Of course his team must be close enough so he can fall back when needed. A lonesome DD is an easy prey for a competent CV, unicum or not.

 

My point is, that there is already a HUGE difference between potato and unicum DDs in terms how fast I can hunt them down.
What changes,that do not widen this gap would you propose?


 

14 minutes ago, Odo_Toothless said:

Radar, hydro, RPF everywhere and they can dominate ? They are just bugs to crush. I play then rather well and In most cases I do a half of average DMG of ex. VII-X BB. Wow - what a powerful they are ... What a BS is this ?

So what you do less damage?
You have over 60% win rate in your DDs, you literally make your team win! Some bug you are! :D

You are a great DD skipper and despite being harrased by CV in many games (I am sure), you keep winning.
Again, there is a huge difference between a potato and an exceptionaly good player.
 

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36 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

The problem is that CV need something to kill DD. They really do. A CV shouldn't be at the mercy of that stupid DD that thought it was smart to go the long way around the map to kill him.

 

CV NEED an anti-Destroyer weapon. 

 

Hm. No? The team with such kind of DD is already punished enough. Or are you saying, that killing the enemy CV is SO important, that you can disregard any kind of teamplay, objectives and spotting? Because thats how it sounds like. So because CVs are so OP we need to make them ... more OP by making it super easy to counter each and every class without having any counter.

 

37 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

Still, I have to remind you that, pre-rework, a CV could do a devastating strike with their torpedo bomber on pretty much ANY DD regardless of what they were doing. 

 

And I need to remind you, that you are not taking about "a CV" but about "maximum a handful of the highest skilled CV-players" and "any DD regardless of what they are doing" needs the adition "unless its a skilled DD-player that knows how to deal with it". Id like to see the 30% RTS Midway "killing ANY DD". Such exaggerations dont help in any discussion.

 

13 minutes ago, Odo_Toothless said:

Radar, hydro, RPF everywhere and they can dominate ? They are just bugs to crush. I play then rather well and In most cases I do a half of average DMG of ex. VII-X BB. Wow - what a powerful they are ... What a BS is this ?

 

Yea, because we are hurting WG´s main customers, aka the BB-folk, we need to be nerfed to the ground. Cant touch ´em.

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Vor 12 Minuten, Odo_Toothless sagte:

Radar, hydro, RPF everywhere and they can dominate ? They are just bugs to crush. I play then rather well and In most cases I do a half of average DMG of ex. VII-X BB. Wow - what a powerful they are ... What a BS is this ?

Yeah, all these counters are so powerful, it is damn near impossible to get a 50%+ WR in DDs

 

except it isn't

 

DDs outspot Radarcruisers

Hydro is mostly defensive and damn near useless when the DD knows how to play

RPF tells you the direction the DD is in but if the DD doesn't want to be spotted, then you won't be able to shoot at him

 

DDs literally dictate every engagement they are in

the only exceptions to this are CVs and even stealthier DDs

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2 minutes ago, MagicMooby said:

DDs outspot Radarcruisers

 

Factually wrong.

 

2 minutes ago, MagicMooby said:

Hydro is mostly defensive and damn near useless when the DD knows how to play

 

The tons of DDs I rushed pants down with Hydro disagree. Also, hydro makes your main source of damage useless.

 

3 minutes ago, MagicMooby said:

RPF tells you the direction the DD is in but if the DD doesn't want to be spotted, then you won't be able to shoot at him 

 

My Henri disagrees. Also: DDs have RPF too and can hunt down any DD that is slower then them.

 

3 minutes ago, MagicMooby said:

Yeah, all these counters are so powerful, it is damn near impossible to get a 50%+ WR in DDs 

 

Do you understand how WR works? Hint: Everyone on the winning team... wins. And in 99,99999999999999999999 % of the cases, classes are matched 1:1

This means: you can LITERALLY create UNARMED TUGBOATS with a healthpool of 100 and a concealment of 95 km and a maximum speed of 0,1 knots as an extra class - their serverwide winrate would STILL be exactly 50 %.

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Vor 2 Minuten, ForlornSailor sagte:

 

Factually wrong.

Interesting

which Radarcruiser outspot which DDs, if I may ask?

Vor 2 Minuten, ForlornSailor sagte:

 

The tons of DDs I rushed pants down with Hydro disagree.

and how many of them where 50%+ WR players

Vor 2 Minuten, ForlornSailor sagte:

Also, hydro makes your main source of damage useless.

Which is why I called it a defensive tool

Vor 2 Minuten, ForlornSailor sagte:

 

My Henri disagrees.

What do you mean?

Do you frequently stealthfire DDs?

Or did you mention the Henri specifically because it is one of the very few cruisers that can outrun some DDs?

Vor 2 Minuten, ForlornSailor sagte:

Also: DDs have RPF too and can hunt down any DD that is slower then them.

so DDs counter other DDs?

Cool

doesn't really affect the interclass balance however

Vor 2 Minuten, ForlornSailor sagte:

 

Do you understand how WR works? Hint: Everyone on the winning team... wins. And in 99,99999999999999999999 % of the cases, classes are matched 1:1

This means: you can LITERALLY create UNARMED TUGBOATS with a healthpool of 100 and a concealment of 95 km and a maximum speed of 0,1 knots as an extra class - their serverwide winrate would STILL be exactly 50 %.

that comment was mostly sarcastic

fact of the matter is that there are players that manage to get 65%+ WRs in DDs

which means that there are players that singlehandedly win games in DDs, despite all the counters that DDs have

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i have to admit despite my bad damage ratios in dd's my winrate is pretty high in them (along with kills as well i think).

thank god my job isnt to balance a game like this, i would ask for 2mil a year lol.

 

balans.

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5 minutes ago, MagicMooby said:

fact of the matter is that there are players that manage to get 65%+ WRs in DDs

which means that there are players that singlehandedly win games in DDs, despite all the counters that DDs have

 

Wrong. I dont "singlehandedly" win those games. I dont run around, killing every ship at will. I know how to use the TEAMPLAY tool given to me to put my team into a position to win. Ive litterally had games with 0 damage, where I still was the deciding factor to bring the win home.

 

7 minutes ago, MagicMooby said:

Do you frequently stealthfire DDs?

 

Well not what I meant in the firstplace but even that I can answer with a "yes".

 

7 minutes ago, MagicMooby said:

which Radarcruiser outspot which DDs, if I may ask?

 

hf spotting a Chapayev. And then there are islands.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, MagicMooby said:

DDs NEED counters or else they would absolutely dominate every game. The problem with CVs is that they hardcounter bad players while doing very little to good players. 

If you look at DD's, for very good players they're the most efficient surface ships in terms of winning games. Only CV's are stronger. 

 

The interaction between CV's and DD's can be pretty harsh, but mostly in rare cases where very good CV players prey on bad to average DD players. Good DD players accept the situation and adapt their play. 

 

DD's have a high skill floor. DD's are also very popular among skilled players due to their great potential. This is why you can't really buff the class as they would then dominate many battles. 

 

CV's on the other hand have a very low skill floor. You can park near the border and do your own thing for the full duration of the battle. It may not be much, and possibly you're little more than a spectator to the battle, but I think this is the reason why most CV players are amazingly inefficient. Many skilled players find the CV gameplay dead boring. This is the reason why it's difficult to nerf the class, despite unicums being outrageously OP. 

 

Personally, as a small but efficient tweak, I would nerf the dispersion of all rocket salvos. 

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Vor 1 Minute, ForlornSailor sagte:

 

Wrong. I dont "singlehandedly" win those games. I dont run around, killing every ship at will. I know how to use the TEAMPLAY tool given to me to put my team into a position to win. Ive litterally had games with 0 damage, where I still was the deciding factor to bring the win home.

you are right, singlehandedly might not have been the right term

but your positive influence on the game is indisputable

if you have a good WR over 100s of games, then you have won several of them due to your own influence in battle

Vor 1 Minute, ForlornSailor sagte:

 

Well not what I meant in the firstplace but even that I can answer with a "yes".

is it a regular occurence?

can you do this reliably?

if not, I don't see how this should be a balancing concern

Vor 1 Minute, ForlornSailor sagte:

 

hf spotting a Chapayev.

Is Chapayev the rule or exception in that regard?

because I don't think we should balance for exceptions

Vor 1 Minute, ForlornSailor sagte:

And then there are islands.

But Islands can b avoided

you always know where they are and you can literally sail away from then, leaving the cruiser behind

and the cruiser behind the island often cannot fire at you and has to rely on his teammates instead

this makes island based radar spotting extremely situational and map dependant

 

Don't misunderstand me, Islands allow radar cruisers to outplay DDs

But if the maps are not build around that, then it doesn't help cruisers

or if the DD doesn't want to be found, then he can just avoid those islands

leaving the cruiser incapable of outspotting the DD

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