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Wargame_3_T64_OP

The Goliath (RN T10 CA)

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An Absolute Disappointment
To say the least, this ship has many problems that completely ruin it's in-game application to anything except HE spamming from Long to Medium-Far range.
After 18 matches in this ship and grinding up to it from the Albermarle after patch day, I have identified some serious issues with this line that manifest themselves most heavily at the Tier 10, where although they share similar issues, the Tier 10 match maker really draws out these problems in the Goliath to a point where playing the Drake at tier 9 is almost always much more enjoyable to play. 

The main problem of this ship is unsurprisingly the 25mm and 30mm armor plating and how it interacts with the overmatch mechanic for both HE from Heavy Cruisers and AP from battleships. I have found by both statistics and in practice that this ship eats full pens from any angle from all high DPM ships as long as they select the correct shell type, where from Heavy Cruisers you can be taking 5k+ damage per salvo, even when not being fired upon by a ships full armament. This is seen most against ships like Des Moines and Moskva where you may be taking 6k salvos consistently every 5-8 seconds despite angling bow in due to the size of the ship. Meanwhile at any conceivable angle and range you can and will eat citadels from battleships with 406mm+ guns and even if this does not occur, you will most likely receive upwards of 10k pen damage every salvo. Simply the heal of this cruiser cannot help it against being focused by multiple ships for an extended period of time and your only method of preventing being destroyed is to disengage and reposition.

This problem of armor places this vessel in a horrible position where your first order of business will be to buy and equip a range module to extend your gun range to 19.4km as your only method of damage mitigation will be to place yourself in a range bracket of Minimum 14km from an enemy. Meanwhile angling away from your enemy will be desirable at all costs as active maneuvering can become decently effective at long range. Moving bow in however is not advisable due to closing the range whilst generally shooting at a vessel moving away is more difficult. Despite this, due to the size of the ship you will take hits, and despite extreme angling you will eat citadels from battleships due to the 102mm flat plates on the upper part of the citadel and the 25mm side plates of it that will be overmatched if a penetration occurs. Finally angling either bow or stern in is completely ineffective due to this ship's lackluster DPM that means you cannot afford to sacrifice half of your gunpower at any point in a battle.

My conclusion for this ship unfortunately is that it fills the unwanted role of a long range HE spamming Cruiser where either the player of a Goliath will suffer from taking too much damage too quickly from enemy fire despite their best efforts so creating unsatisfying gameplay, or the Goliath player will be able to effectively dodge fire at range while using it's hard hitting guns to slowly tear apart enemy vessels, creating unsatisfying gameplay for the enemy, meaning whether the ship lives or dies, someone will be frustrated by this outcome. Finally I must state that against a competent gunner, the Goliath has absolutely no form of mitigation of the damage. If they hit you, you will suffer so in turn survival is based upon luck of dispersion against you and the abilities of your opponent.

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2 minutes ago, Cruditatem said:

I like her, no issues 

What tactics do you use when operating the ship, and can you say that compared to other Heavy Cruisers this ship is competitive?

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8 minutes ago, Wargame_3_T64_OP said:

What tactics do you use when operating the ship, and can you say that compared to other Heavy Cruisers this ship is competitive?

1. You play in division with DD or Mino (or anything else with smoke)

2. You camp behind some Islands just like in DM and unlike DM you can farm GK and Yama . If anything will rush you - you got torps with great angles. 

3. Superheal is mostly useful if you have 1v1 cruiser engagement. You can't take focus fire from many ships. 

4. This thing is great to blap Smolensk. 

So basically it's really strong playing in division with right ships. It's a mixbag with no specific role. It's not a flanker, not typical spammer and with no powerful AP. Omg the other hand it's balanced line that can have an influence when used correctly. It's not easy one though. 

If you look at my stats on her - they're not good. I've got blapped few times on her overextending and playing solo. 

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I like her too. The way I play is to take full turn and reverse into cap distance. Any shots to the bow will get your citadel.

The torps are useful, maybe a lot of players don’t yet know that the Goliath has torops?

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[COMFY]
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She is probably the rarest tier X appearing in games after release.

Hell even Drakes are rare.

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[MAS-X]
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If the Goliath works as you said, then isn't a Yoshino or a Zao a better choice for long range HE spamming? They also have better torpedoes

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Hey, 

 

I agree with you but, after my first two battles where I was detonated and focused-on by three ships. 

 

I decided to get into positions where I can fire angled or from island cover. Focus on DDs and Cruisers and keep at least 15km from BBs. 

 

Play it like a Worcester. 

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11 minutes ago, dunbine said:

If the Goliath works as you said, then isn't a Yoshino or a Zao a better choice for long range HE spamming? They also have better torpedoes

Just a quick comparison:

Goliath HE DPM no MBM3 - 149.688 with16,6 km range

Yoshino HE DPM no MBM3 - 148.716 with 21 km range

Zao HE DPM no MBM3 - 178.704 with 16,2 km range

 

If you take a LM Zao you outclass Goliath, and Yoshino has better range on both guns and torps.

Then of course you need to consider, Yoshino can take MBM3 and still have range, Goliath can also take it but it is clumsy and short ranged.

 

14 minutes ago, CallmeMessi said:

Play it like a Worcester. 

Why not take Worcester then?

 

I don't have Goliath yet. But I do not see any appeal. I already have a Hinden, so the niche of clumsy long range ship is covered.

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23 minutes ago, dunbine said:

If the Goliath works as you said, then isn't a Yoshino or a Zao a better choice for long range HE spamming? They also have better torpedoes

28% Fire chance per hit?

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13 minutes ago, dunbine said:

If the Goliath works as you said, then isn't a Yoshino or a Zao a better choice for long range HE spamming? They also have better torpedoes

I would sum it up as a bad HE spammer, yes

 

27 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

1. You play in division with DD or Mino (or anything else with smoke)

2. You camp behind some Islands just like in DM and unlike DM you can farm GK and Yama . If anything will rush you - you got torps with great angles. 

3. Superheal is mostly useful if you have 1v1 cruiser engagement. You can't take focus fire from many ships. 

4. This thing is great to blap Smolensk. 

So basically it's really strong playing in division with right ships. It's a mixbag with no specific role. It's not a flanker, not typical spammer and with no powerful AP. Omg the other hand it's balanced line that can have an influence when used correctly. It's not easy one though. 

If you look at my stats on her - they're not good. I've got blapped few times on her overextending and playing solo. 

 

9 minutes ago, CallmeMessi said:

Hey, 

 

I agree with you but, after my first two battles where I was detonated and focused-on by three ships. 

 

I decided to get into positions where I can fire angled or from island cover. Focus on DDs and Cruisers and keep at least 15km from BBs. 

 

Play it like a Worcester. 

I would consider my Drake stats to be much better than my Goliath stats, although in reality they are similar, there are massive discrepancies in average XP per battle where with Drake I have 2,227 and Goliath, 1617, and in general that would correlate to my enjoyment between those ships.
As far as divisions go, I am purely a solo player so that a no go for me, and as far as island hugging goes I just feel too fragile to be doing that. The threat of eating 3+ citadels from a BB within 10km, especially with the likes of Kremlin and Thunderer always puts me off. Meanwhile I always find myself completely outmatched by Des Moines as a main example where her AP and HE are incredible at slapping the Goliath under 12km whilst none IFHE Goliath cant do the same to most areas on the Des Moines' angled front, meanwhile the Des Moines even with just the front guns pumps out 6 more shells than the Goliath in 18 seconds.

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10 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

28% Fire chance per hit?

The base fire chance of Goliath is only 24% though. That's 5% more than base Zao, and Zao shoots faster.

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Goliath is quite good at killing Smolensk... and that's about it. 

 

It is slow to accelerate, turns like a BB, and scrubs speed in a turn like it's hit an iceberg. It's also a big old bus, which doesn't help it with incoming fire. The armour is unreliable at best. 

 

The only way to play it is dance about near your BBs and HE spam, swapping to AP whenever a cruiser comes into range, and just hope the enemy ignores you long enough to rack up some fires.

 

It either needs an injection of agility, or a touch more tank, or a reload buff, to drag it out of the pit of meh. The only thing it really does well is make the Puerto Rico look less awful

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2 minutes ago, _Dunc_ said:

Goliath is quite good at killing Smolensk... and that's about it. 

 

It is slow to accelerate, turns like a BB, and scrubs speed in a turn like it's hit an iceberg. It's also a big old bus, which doesn't help it with incoming fire. The armour is unreliable at best. 

 

The only way to play it is dance about near your BBs and HE spam, swapping to AP whenever a cruiser comes into range, and just hope the enemy ignores you long enough to rack up some fires.

 

It either needs an injection of agility, or a touch more tank, or a reload buff, to drag it out of the pit of meh. The only thing it really does well is make the Puerto Rico look less awful

Yes I think you have relatively hit the nail on the head with a single word, being "Hope". You can be a skilled player in this ship, but you come against someone who knows what they are doing in nearly any same tier vessel and you are sure to have a bad time, despite any attempts to mitigate their actions. The only ship class I don't really find myself worrying about is destroyers but that is only as leading an assault with this ship is a bad idea to begin with.

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Managed to scrape up to 109k dmg game in the Mehliath.

 

Pure HE spam game. 128 hits.

 

4 fires. All on a Kremlin. for 24k dmg.

 

Of the 70 hits to other ships - Hindi, Richelieu, Ohio, Shim, and Buffalo. Not a single fire. 

 

That's without IFHE, but with demo expert, plus fire flags. 

 

Thing is just no good. 

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The Albermale is already fantastic, handles t10 as if it was a t10. I can't wait until i get that Goliath. Don't know why you are having issues but these ships make amazing kiting ships

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If you would have played other Cruisers (or bothered looking up the armor from them) you would see, that the "problems" you listed are not exclusive to Goliath.

Cruisers penning each other left right and center: Normal? Well, unless you play Stalingrad and Moskva which have thicker plating to actually shatter a lot of HE.

BBs citadelling Cruisers through the bow: Once again, thats pretty normal, unless once again, you are Stalingrad/Moskva which have a bit better protection (but by no means its impossible)

 

15 hours ago, Wargame_3_T64_OP said:

Simply the heal of this cruiser cannot help it against being focused by multiple ships for an extended period of time and your only method of preventing being destroyed is to disengage and reposition.

 

This one is just marvelous. You think any other ship would survive this? Well, unless you are a BB which can pull it of to some degree. But basicly every Cruiser would die, and most of them even faster as their heal is not as good.

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Wish they had longer range or at least not atrocious AP penetration, at least that is what wows fitting tool suggests!

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2 hours ago, Yoshanai said:

The Albermale is already fantastic, handles t10 as if it was a t10. I can't wait until i get that Goliath. Don't know why you are having issues but these ships make amazing kiting ships

Only at the Albermarle myself atm, and The issue with RN CAs is mostly that they doesnt have a role.

Name any job and there will always be another tier X that does that job better. And LM Zao is just better at everything the Goliath does.

 

Offtopic: My Akuzuki likes the Albermarle too. It doesnt have that Gadawful SAP and reload like Edinburg :cap_popcorn:

 

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17 hours ago, ImperialAdmiral said:

She is probably the rarest tier X appearing in games after release.

Hell even Drakes are rare.

 

I mean, they are introduce recently, so yeah no big surprise.

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2 hours ago, Yoshanai said:

The Albermale is already fantastic, handles t10 as if it was a t10. I can't wait until i get that Goliath. Don't know why you are having issues but these ships make amazing kiting ships

I don't think people have issues with the Albermarle, I think the issue is with the Goliath? Since you don't have it, like me, how can you be so sure that it's going to play the same? Unless of course you're simply adding a postive spin on things for reasons only the two of us know? :Smile-_tongue:

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18 hours ago, Wargame_3_T64_OP said:

What tactics do you use when operating the ship, and can you say that compared to other Heavy Cruisers this ship is competitive?

Engine propulsion mod in slot 4 and rudder in slot 5 and use WASD hax a lot, also 19.5 km range makes it easier to dodge so if you are still learning the technique take range mod in slot 6

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Such a shame that the Goliath is this squishy mehboat and not the Churchill 3x4 Supercruiser, that at least would have been a bit more interesting. But it looks like WG are only intresting in making lazy ships and then just throw a super heal on and call it done.

 

The T8 secondaries haven't even been fixed yet and they have already moved on to the next 2 lines.

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2 minutes ago, The_White_Whale said:

Such a shame that the Goliath is this squishy mehboat and not the Churchill 3x4 Supercruiser,

Easy comrade, what will they do next year in RN line as coal/steel/rb premium if they put the CC in as T10

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