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Farazelleth

American CV Airgroup changes - TB reduction why?

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[OMNI]
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 First time poster here, I wanted to talk about the American CV air group changes with the release of 0.3.1

 

 For those who are unaware, American carriers used to be able to field 2 waves of torpedo bombers as well as 1 or 2 groups of fighters and the higher tier US CVs could also field an additional dive bomber wave. But with 0.3.1 this has been changed to only allow 1fp, 1tb, 1db and if you want multiple fighters you have to sacrifice your only TB wave. If you decide to go full bomber cv (not something I'm really a fan of) then you only gain extra DBs not TBs. You have to wait until the Essex (Tier9 now) and go full bomber CV air group before you get a second TB wave.

 

 I'm curious as to what the Dev's thought process here was, can anyone explain? As a predominately carrier player I pride myself in being able to Torpedo bomb really well and enjoy the fighter plane and torpedo bomber gameplay. Why do 2 waves matter? Its basic angles and being able to guarantee atleast 1 wave will hit an enemy ship hard. The first wave will make the target move in a certain way that the second wave will 75%+ of the time get a full broadside or if the target does not react you hit with both waves (always fun). I often don't just kill large targets either I enjoy going after those pesky Destroyers chasing you down but it really requires a second wave to be successful unless the target is playing poorly.

 

 I know the Japanese carriers have multiple waves of TBs on all tiers plus you get atleast 1 wave of fighters so at the very least I can still continue my style of gameplay just with another nation. I'm just wondering if the changes to American CV's are designed to make them more FP/DB focused.

 

 

TL;DR

Reducing TB waves from 2 to 1 on American Carriers, why?

Edited by Farazelleth
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Alpha Tester
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Because they wanted to make the nations different and the USN really used mainly DBs to attack ships. Very good in theory, but they somehow forgot that the DBs ingame are still useless and you can't use them as your damage source like the TBs before.

 

They should really see huge stats drop in their server statistics and introduce AP bombs for the USN DBs.

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[BEIC]
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Because they wanted to make the nations different and the USN really used mainly DBs to attack ships. Very good in theory, but they somehow forgot that the DBs ingame are still useless and you can't use them as your damage source like the TBs before.

 

They should really see huge stats drop in their server statistics and introduce AP bombs for the USN DBs.

 

I thought we were supposed to see an increase in damage from DB's with this patch.  If they did then it clearly had little to no effect.  I have tested out (as a good Beta tester should) using the DB's most of this morning and honestly there is almost no difference than before.

 

Also, fighters are slower and TB's are dropping heir load (no pun there, walk away :trollface:) further away from the target (on auto).  TB's are also panicked a lot easier.

 

Going to sell up my US carriers and try out the JP line to see what the difference is and, of course, to test for bugs.

 

See you at sea.

 

:honoring: 

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Alpha Tester
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I have tested out (as a good Beta tester should) using the DB's most of this morning and honestly there is almost no difference than before.

 

I just tested out the new carriers.  2 TB squads and 1 DB squad was seeing the DBs doing half the damage of the TBs.  Adds up, to me.  Mostly fire damage.

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Alpha Tester
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 I'm curious as to what the Dev's thought process here was, can anyone explain?

 

 

They broke the 2 lines of DDs with that "national peculiarities", it was a disaster so guess they now decided to broke the CVs too.

 

Now US CVs seems good only to cockblock the IJN CVs and getting no rewards for it.

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[BEIC]
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I just tested out the new carriers.  2 TB squads and 1 DB squad was seeing the DBs doing half the damage of the TBs.  Adds up, to me.  Mostly fire damage.

 

I was getting hits but maybe my luck was out with the fire damage.  The ships I hit repaired it straight away.

 

I will need to try some co-ordination attacks :izmena: and get some flooding going, make them repair then hit with the DB.

 

To be continued no doubt.

 

See you at sea

 

:honoring:

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[HF_30]
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They broke the 2 lines of DDs with that "national peculiarities", it was a disaster so guess they now decided to broke the CVs too.

 

Now US CVs seems good only to cockblock the IJN CVs and getting no rewards for it.

 

The DD`s are 100% fine one has better torps the other better guns just since you can not deal with it don`t mean there not balanced and working well in game.

 

I have yet to play this patch but i am sure the DB got a buff and if you pick the target right you can just wreck them with fire like before the patch i expect them to only be better now wait for a ship to repair divebomb mass fire damage and cripple or sink it.

Edited by Darzok

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Alpha Tester
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The DD`s are 100% fine one has better torps the other better guns

 

And the line with the torpedoes have the worst WR and average damage in game after tier 5.

 

since you can not deal with it don`t mean there not balanced and working well in game

 

I ain't the one with literally 3 games with DDs. Come back once you played high tiers.

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The DD`s are 100% fine one has better torps the other better guns just since you can not deal with it don`t mean there not balanced and working well in game.

 

I have yet to play this patch but i am sure the DB got a buff and if you pick the target right you can just wreck them with fire like before the patch i expect them to only be better now wait for a ship to repair divebomb mass fire damage and cripple or sink it.

 

Hogwash.
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[OMNI]
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Like most other Carrier players I've found dive bombers to be lacking in punch, maybe the Devs have balance plans for AP or more HE damage etc.

 

The way I see a Carrier is the ultimate glass cannon, you get a very powerful 'Alpha Strike' (single very high damage attack) but on a very long reload (time it takes planes to fly out and back). Since the DBs hit like wet toilet paper its why I prefer to use the Torpedo bombers, not to say I didn't use DBs prior to this patch. I found them to be good at soaking up AA damage and to start a fire forcing a repair just prior to torp hits with TBs etc. Factor in a wave or 2 of fighters to provide your bombers with escort or to stop enemy bombers hitting your team and you got a pretty decent complete package.

 

Oh well, will experiment with DB damage more with US carriers before I start testing the IJN CV line

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[-MM]
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low tier Japanese DDS need a torp reload nerf and the high tier ones need a torp reload buff, I'd say about 20-25% each way.

 

Minekaze in particular is OP as all hell and there is literally no point playing above compared to that thing.

 

The gun differences should stay though IMO. US DDs get crap torps all the way and much worse surfacw detection really until the Benson on 9 and the likes of the Simms main role is being able to decimate Japan DDs. 

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Yeah - This update completely killed all interest I have in playing CVs as long as dive bombers are beyond useless and we aren't given a single Torpedo Bomber along with a Fighter. (Independence)

 

I'd switch to the Japanese ships for a go - But Wargaming didn't bother giving us enough slots to do that without selling one of our existing ships. Great beta! :sceptic:

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low tier Japanese DDS need a torp reload nerf and the high tier ones need a torp reload buff, I'd say about 20-25% each way.

 

Right on the money. Lower acquisition ranges from long range torpedoes and detctability penalty after shotting and DDs are fixed.

 

Anyways, lets not talk about DDs in this thread.

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Yeah - This update completely killed all interest I have in playing CVs as long as dive bombers are beyond useless and we aren't given a single Torpedo Bomber along with a Fighter. (Independence)

 

I'd switch to the Japanese ships for a go - But Wargaming didn't bother giving us enough slots to do that without selling one of our existing ships. Great beta! :sceptic:

 

IJN CVs are pointless too, torpedo bombers or not.

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Alpha Tester
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IJN CVs are pointless too, torpedo bombers or not.

 

And how did you come to that conclusion?

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And how did you come to that conclusion?

 

 

Playing games.

 

American CVs have very little to do now except to cockblock IJN CVs. That would be fine if IJN CVs were actually very strong, but they're not. It's next to impossible even with perfectly angled torpedo drops from three directions to land more than two or so hits against American battleships, which gives a damage of about 15k optimistically. Combined with the travel time of probably around one minute and the refueling and rearming, that gives absolutely pitiful dpm for the upper end of the skill curve. However, the skill it takes to evade said torpedoes is minimal. It's very simple to evade those torpedoes even on pure reaction time.

 

In my opinion a carrier should have equivalent damage output to a battleship or there's no reason to play them, which means a game should end with ~100k damage dealt. This is completely impossible now.

 

CVs are so useless against American BBs that I've started torpedo bombing cruisers and destroyers because it leads to more damage and more xp in the long run.

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Alpha Tester
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You played 5 games in Hosho (bugged planes for me) and you judge the whole IJN line based on 5 battles?

Not to mention that your avarage damage is 30K. This is tier 4 you know, your Myogi has less. You want 100K, rly ?! Most of the Essex captains couldn't do 100K avarage before the nerf now...

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All right, let's not talk about damage numbers. I was a bit too eager to mention 100k. It's too high.

 

Instead, let's talk about how hard it is to hit things. Have you tried hitting the American BBs with torpedo bombers?

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Of course I tried, and I had to hit not random players, but STs who know how to evade. Now it's very rare to 1shot a BB with your first strike, but it's hardly a bad thing and doesn't mean they became useless.

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Even if you only dodge once the torpedoes are in the water, you can easily avoid getting hit by almost all torpedoes because the turning circle is tiny and the ship can bleed an arbitrary amount of speed during the turn, depending on what the player does.

 

It used to be impossible to do anything meaningful in carriers against people with a brain. Now it's also impossible to do something meaningful against people without a brain if they're in an American battleship.

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Even if you only dodge once the torpedoes are in the water, you can easily avoid getting hit by almost all torpedoes because the turning circle is tiny and the ship can bleed an arbitrary amount of speed during the turn, depending on what the player does.

 

It used to be impossible to do anything meaningful in carriers against people with a brain. Now it's also impossible to do something meaningful against people without a brain if they're in an American battleship.

 

and British BBs

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[WJDE]
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low tier Japanese DDS need a torp reload nerf and the high tier ones need a torp reload buff, I'd say about 20-25% each way.

 

Minekaze in particular is OP as all hell and there is literally no point playing above compared to that thing.

 

The gun differences should stay though IMO. US DDs get crap torps all the way and much worse surfacw detection really until the Benson on 9 and the likes of the Simms main role is being able to decimate Japan DDs. 

 

Are you the dude who got torped in his Cleveland this morning? Because the very next words out of your mouth (after swearing & calling your opponent "over-powered", 'cos he got you when you weren't paying attention) were that your Cleveland is NOT overpowered & definitely not the most laughably overpowered ship in the entire game.

 

Just a head's-up, if it wasn't you then apologies. I'll stop bunging up the thread now...

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Even if you only dodge once the torpedoes are in the water, you can easily avoid getting hit by almost all torpedoes because the turning circle is tiny and the ship can bleed an arbitrary amount of speed during the turn, depending on what the player does.

 

It used to be impossible to do anything meaningful in carriers against people with a brain. Now it's also impossible to do something meaningful against people without a brain if they're in an American battleship.

 

How is the great turning radius of USN BBs making the IJN CVs bad? That's feedback on the USN ships you know...

Also you have to adjust your playstyle now, it's just different. It was also different in alpha->CBT and I had to learn the CVs again, as the torps speed, drop speed and arming range was changed back then and I was simply not able to hit ships at the start of CBT. Just give it time. When I attack USN BB I wait it to start turning and attack him in a such angle that will hit him inside his turning radius. He doesn't have such fast rudder time to completely change the direction so you will score hits. yes you won't score 12/12 (8/8) like before, but you usually do more damage to the USN BBs, because they have weaker anti torp protection, while IJn are easier to hit, but you deal less damage.

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How is the great turning radius of USN BBs making the IJN CVs bad? That's feedback on the USN ships you know...

Also you have to adjust your playstyle now, it's just different. It was also different in alpha->CBT and I had to learn the CVs again, as the torps speed, drop speed and arming range was changed back then and I was simply not able to hit ships at the start of CBT. Just give it time. When I attack USN BB I wait it to start turning and attack him in a such angle that will hit him inside his turning radius. He doesn't have such fast rudder time to completely change the direction so you will score hits. yes you won't score 12/12 (8/8) like before, but you usually do more damage to the USN BBs, because they have weaker anti torp protection, while IJn are easier to hit, but you deal less damage.

 

Okay, after a couple more games with Houshou, I must admit that I was too harsh too eagerly. With different attack runs it's still possible to get hits, even on American battleships, but I believe that in principle my point stands.

 

I don't feel like the higher individual damage compensates for the lack of broadside waves.

 

Let's face it: Most players will dodge once the torpedoes are in the water. Anybody who dodges the planes can't be realistically hit by more than a lucky bow hit anyway. Before the patch, CVs could bottom-feed off inattentive or bad BB players and it was well possible to get 80% hit rates from your waves.

 

American battleships dodge the same amount of torpedoes on reaction that Japanese battleships dodged on plane evasion. This lowers overall damage output and makes the class as a whole worse because the impact on the game is lessened.

 

Sure, you can switch your attention to cruisers and start torpedoing those. In many ways attacking cruisers is a lot more fruitful than attacking battleships now. But that just increases the amount of people that feed off cruisers, which used to be almost everybody anyway.

 

I mean, yes, I overreacted. But I think the point stands.

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