Why Is Stated Weapons Damage Shown As Maximum And Not Average Damage?

[Sir_Sinksalot]

Just wondering why this is when it comes to each ships stated damage output in terms of their shells and torpedo's etc? In WoT we are shown tanks weapons damage as an average since this is how damage rolls generally stays at but we are also given max and min values too. Obviously the average damage rolls are what we are going to deal most the time so why in WoWs did WG decide to only display one of these values and at that, the lessor important value since average damage and not maximum damage is always the more likely return by game design constraints?

 

Now, perhaps these values are displayed and I just can't see them. I'd like to know how it shot or volley "rolls" in terms of their damage and it's impossible for me to know what each ships guns and torpedoes average damage output is without also knowing what it's minimum roll value is too.

 

Since the damage each weapon will deal generally never hits it's maximum(or minimum) value due to RNG constraints which keeps them around the middle, why not display average damage when we explore our ships weaponry instead of maximum since that maximum is rarely going to ever happen but average damage will happen most every shot. 

 

In other words if a ship has a max dmg of 3000 and a min of 1000 dmg(which we will never know aparantly because min is not displayed) then the ships average dmg is 2000 and this is what dmg returns we can expect from each shot most the time. I may have completely missed something here and if so my bad but then again exploring these topics is part of what a forum is for, to get the answers. 

[Xevious_Red]

It's not RNG.

 

For AP:

If a shell hits, and punches through to the citadel (black ribbon) then it does full listed damage.

If it hits and explodes inside the ship, but not in the citadel it does 1/3rd the listed damage.

If it punches straight through a weakly armoured section where the shell enters and exits without exploding then it does 1/10th the listed damage.

If it bounces or fails to penetrate it does 0 damage.

 

For HE:

If it hits and punches through to citadel then it does full listed damage. This is unlikely to happen because HE doesnt have much pen and citadel armour is quite thick.

If it hits and pens (non citadel) it does 1/3rd listed damage.

 

Torps:

These do the listed damage, reduced by the targets torp reduction. So if a torp with listed damage 20k hits a yamato's torp belt (50%) then it will do 10k damage.

 

 

These values are then reduced by a damage saturation mechanic, where certain sections of ships can only produce a certain amount of damage - this is so you cant kill a ship by repeatedly shooting it on the top of a pagoda. So if a section has been shot a lot (it goes black) then you will get reduced damage to that section (down to zero potentially)

 

[Panocek]

14 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Just wondering why this is when it comes to each ships stated damage output in terms of their shells and torpedo's etc? In WoT we are shown tanks weapons damage as an average since this is how damage rolls generally stays at but we are also given max and min values too. Obviously the average damage rolls are what we are going to deal most the time so why in WoWs did WG decide to only display one of these values and at that, the lessor important value since average damage and not maximum damage is always the more likely return by game design constraints?

 

Now, perhaps these values are displayed and I just can't see them. I'd like to know how it shot or volley "rolls" in terms of their damage and it's impossible for me to know what each ships guns and torpedoes average damage output is without also knowing what it's minimum roll value is too.

 

Since the damage each weapon will deal generally never hits it's maximum(or minimum) value due to RNG constraints which keeps them around the middle, why not display average damage when we explore our ships weaponry instead of maximum since that maximum is rarely going to ever happen but average damage will happen most every shot. 

 

In other words if a ship has a max dmg of 3000 and a min of 1000 dmg(which we will never know aparantly because min is not displayed) then the ships average dmg is 2000 and this is what dmg returns we can expect from each shot most the time. I may have completely missed something here and if so my bad but then again exploring these topics is part of what a forum is for, to get the answers. 

In WoT, you have RNG regarding shell damage. In WoWs, you have no RNG for shell damage, just multipliers based on hit ship section. And whether you display 3000 shell dmg for citadel, 1000 for pen and 300 for overpen, or 300 base damage, 1000 for pen or 3000 for citadel, it matters little in the end.

 

Those multipliers could be easily visible in game stat sheet tho, without need for external sources.

[Sir_Sinksalot]

So the listed maximum damage is only for a citadel strike while the torpedo damage is way too variable since ships have different anti-torpedo belt values. Is this correct?

[Uglesett]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

So the listed maximum damage is only for a citadel strike

Yes.

 

while the torpedo damage is way too variable since ships have different anti-torpedo belt values. Is this correct?

This, plus damage saturation can also reduce the damage.

[Steel_duck_1]

Because average damage depends on your target, the angle and where you aim. All possible outcomes of damage is calculated on the basis of the maximum damage listed and it is therefore a very important stat. Others beat me to it but yes, citadel strikes cause maximum damage for shells. Regular penetrations cause 1/3 of maximum while overpens cause 1/10 of max. Bounces and shatters cause 0 damage. I suggest a look at this article: https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

[Sir_Sinksalot]

Thanks. Btw, are penetration values subject to RNG or distance like WoT? In WoT only HE and HEAT do not lose penetration with distance but AP and APCR does while all their penetration are subject to a role of the RNG dice, is something like this in WoWs? I'm already up to speed on overpen, overmatch and of course ricochet. Overmatch and ricochet are also in WoT but not overpen which I have understood shortly after playing WoWS so it's just the RNG on penetration I'm wondering about.

[Fat_Maniac]

8 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Thanks. Btw, are penetration values subject to RNG or distance like WoT? In WoT only HE and HEAT do not lose penetration with distance but AP and APCR does while all their penetration are subject to a role of the RNG dice, is something like this in WoWs? I'm already up to speed on overpen, overmatch and of course ricochet. Overmatch and ricochet are also in WoT but not overpen which I have understood shortly after playing WoWS so it's just the RNG on penetration I'm wondering about.

Pen decreases with distance, as a general rule

[Uglesett]

1 minute ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Thanks. Btw, are penetration values subject to RNG or distance like WoT?

For AP shells, there is no randomness to the penetration, but it will fall off with shell speed (which diminishes with distance). The only random factor is with ricochets, where you have a range of impact angles that are guaranteed ricochets (assuming the shell doesn't overmatch the armour), and a range of angles where there's a variable probability of ricochets.

 

HE shells have the same penetration regardless of range. Same goes for SAP shells, but they can ricochet.

[MacArthur92]

Once I got hit by torp on my 50% hp Kleber. I didn't lose any hp but all my torpedo tubes were destroyed... Modules also take dmg.

[Panocek]

34 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Thanks. Btw, are penetration values subject to RNG or distance like WoT? In WoT only HE and HEAT do not lose penetration with distance but AP and APCR does while all their penetration are subject to a role of the RNG dice, is something like this in WoWs? I'm already up to speed on overpen, overmatch and of course ricochet. Overmatch and ricochet are also in WoT but not overpen which I have understood shortly after playing WoWS so it's just the RNG on penetration I'm wondering about.

When it comes to gunnery, only RNG you have is dispersion and ricochet chance when interacting with moderately angled armor. Shell penetration is "fixed" and follows penetration curve. Shell damage is affected by ship section and damage saturation.

 

48 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

So the listed maximum damage is only for a citadel strike while the torpedo damage is way too variable since ships have different anti-torpedo belt values. Is this correct?

Torpedo damage calculation is somewhat complex, but it accounts for ship section hp and torpedo damage reduction from torpedo belts, when applicable.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, Xevious_Red said:

For HE:

If it hits and punches through to citadel then it does full listed damage. This is unlikely to happen because HE doesnt have much pen and citadel armour is quite thick.

Also, many ships have a citadel that is not adjacent directly to the outer hull. In which case, it is entirely impossible to citadel a ship with HE.

 

Also, shells may hit a module or a no hp area of the ship, doing no damage that way either (though in first case, they'd damage the module at least).

[beercrazy]

10 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Also, many ships have a citadel that is not adjacent directly to the outer hull. In which case, it is entirely impossible to citadel a ship with HE.

 

Also, shells may hit a module or a no hp area of the ship, doing no damage that way either (though in first case, they'd damage the module at least).

I have managed to get citadel penetration hits to citadel with he on the very light armoured cruisers especially the british line

the shell fired at them does make a difference and he from a bb can easily citadel pen whereas the dd guns just aint big enough most of the time

 

shells can now also pen the torpedo bulge and not enter the ship and as such you get the penetration notification but get 0 damage

[HaachamaShipping]

4 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

I have managed to get citadel penetration hits to citadel with he on the very light armoured cruisers especially the british line

the shell fired at them does make a difference and he from a bb can easily citadel pen whereas the dd guns just aint big enough most of the time

 

shells can now also pen the torpedo bulge and not enter the ship and as such you get the penetration notification but get 0 damage

You need generally over 100 mm of HE pen to get through high tier cruiser cits and it's really just some cruisers. That means, only Germans and British BBs have even a chance to citadel a plethora of cruisers and among them, for Germany only T9 and T10, for British, Nelson, Lion, Conq and Thunderer. Rest, if you are citadelling cruisers with HE, maybe as top tier vs T6-7 paper boats like Atlanta or such. One notable case is Smolensk, which any T10 BB except Bourgogne and Montana can HE citadel and should, as AP will often just overpen.

 

Torp protection is some of the 0 hp area I referred to.

[havaduck]

5 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

It's not RNG

 

Indeed, its just broken:

 

AP shells that bounce can sink a ship - doing indefinitely more damage than they should.

 

AP can overpenn or explode multiple times; or a combination of the 2. So the "Maximum Damage" listed in the game is, like everything with WG, a lie at best. If they 2 were able to meet in the random queue, because of this clusterfuck, a Mutsu can, theoretically, sink a Zao with 2 AP shells - without a detonation ofc.

 

 

As a rule of thumb when it comes to the damage range of individual shells: They can do 0 damage when the should at least cause some damage. So thats sets the lower limit.

On the higher end a citadel + 2 regular pens are (by 1 shell!), if I remember correctly, the upper verified limit. More might be possible but its hard to verify and probably even more rare so as a rule of thumb the upper limit is at 166 % than what the game tells you to be the "maximum (I loled!) damage". 

 

 

Ofc its undulating between the extremes so the results of this clusterfuck is that any given shell might do ........ whatever up to and including ridiculous and impossibel citadel. Anyone got the .gif handy of that Yamato detonating to 130 mm HE spam?

 

 

All of this is known for years ........ I know this because I pointed it out to the Skaven, with proof, said years ago.

 

For example:

 

5 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

For AP:

If it bounces or fails to penetrate it does 0 damage.

 

BB-AP, bounce, 551 damage (probably more but thats what the cruiser had left). Got more pics (but dont want to flood just making a point) as the replay doesnt work anymore but this is a 4 month old shot of this shitload of fúck broken game.

 

 

and before somebody says "I shotted just at the wrong moment, more ribbons are poping up" ->

 

 

Nope, a whole 6 seconds later (remaining time, counts down) and the "ribbon bank" went from 42 at the time the shell landed and the new one popped up from 42 to 43 (and ofc from 2 to 3 for sinkers); even the added damage adds up perfectly.

 

[Xevious_Red]

7 minutes ago, havaduck said:

 

All of this is known for years ........ I know this because I pointed it out to the Skaven

Horned Rat intensifies?

[havaduck]

4 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Horned Rat intensifies?

 

 

They deity they worship is called "Spreadshit" in their vile chitterish native tongue, which I am reluctant to use even during daylight times.

 

 

However from the other thread:

 

 

and if you wonder:    Bretonia    Equestria intensifies; as does purging ...

 

https://flagelante-feliz.foroactivo.com/t557-reporte-brutal-de-bretonia-con-minis-alternas-para-morirse     <-english