Give Karma an actual purpose

[genosse]

Karma

/ˈkɑːmə,ˈkəːmə/

noun

(in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.

 

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In plain words, Karma can be broken down to: "Do good and good will come to you".

 

I'd like to see this mechanic finally implemented into the game, and I have the following suggestion: Let Karma influence the chances of the various randomized reward systems in the game.

Examples: Super Container drop chances, early access ships drop chances, chances to get to rewards from various slot machines, maybe even augment the amounts of coal and steel given each day, similar to clan bonusses.

 

All of us (including the devs) want a healthy and non-toxic community, none of us likes to play with bot-players and AFKers, and pretty much all of us are fed up with the low drop-rates and/or lacklustre rewards of the recent directives/events.

 

A system that rewards teamwork, good gameplay, politeness and general helpfulness could improve (not solve!) many different issues that are plaguing the game right now, in what amounts to a win-win situation for everyone: Players try to be less toxic (although the WoWs community is already pretty civil, in my opinion), and some may even try to play better. For that, their rewards will improve, and in turn there will be less reason to complain. A big circle of awesome.

 

And all of this will fit into the basic definition of Karma, as stated above, and will not influence the skill based systems, or the basic gameplay, in any way.

 

This should also be about positive reinforcement, not punishment, so if you sit at 0 Karma, you won't notice a difference to the current RNG. Karma's influence should also be just big enough for players to notice a difference, but not so big that it can be abused (like two mates upvoting each other until they get a SC every drop or something) - I am sure the devs can work this out by looking at their spreadsheets.

 

What do you think? Good idea or bad idea?

[Yukikaze_AL]

I'm confident that some players just have to vent sometimes and therefore will always end up with low karma!

I assure you those players can't change their behavior easily as it's their nature and they shouldn't be punished for that! 

[Klopirat]

2 minutes ago, genosse said:

Examples: Super Container drop chances, early access ships drop chances, chances to get to rewards from various slot machines, maybe even augment the amounts of coal and steel given each day, similar to clan bonusses.

sure, let the karma-farming/rigging begin...

 

4 minutes ago, genosse said:

Good idea or bad idea?

very very very bad

[genosse]

1 minute ago, Klopirat said:

sure, let the karma-farming/rigging begin...

 

very very very bad

What's bad about karma-farming as you call it, if it means improving the community and possibly the gameplay?

 

I don't see anyone complaining about XP or credit-farming, for that matter.

[ForlornSailor]

1 minute ago, genosse said:

What's bad about karma-farming as you call it, if it means improving the community and possibly the gameplay?

 

Gather with your boiis at 5 am, click in coop T1 - profit. Sounds stupid but you and me know exactly, that this would happen, right? (and it wouldnt improve the community). Thats why we cant have nice things ^^

[genosse]

6 minutes ago, Yukikaze_AL said:

I'm confident that some players just have to vent sometimes and therefore will always end up with low karma!

I assure you those players can't change their behavior easily as it's their nature and they shouldn't be punished for that! 

We aren't animals. If someone can't control him or herself, I do very much think they should be punished.

 

But that's not the point anyway, because I was only talking about improvements. If someone prefers to act like a total shitshow, they will just have the same drop chances as they currently have.

[genosse]

2 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Gather with your boiis at 5 am, click in coop T1 - profit. Sounds stupid but you and me know exactly, that this would happen, right? (and it wouldnt improve the community). Thats why we cant have nice things ^^

Yeah, there have to anti-abuse systems in place, but this is not an unsolvable issue. I just can't solve it, because I can't see the mights spreadsheets and all the possible information they contain.

But you cannot totally rule out that the devs could solve it.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

Just a  small additional info regarding the subject if I may: I have "Match Making Monitor BETA" and I use it for my own purposes only (i.e. I never tell teams about it - my team or the enemy team).

 

The new "Match Making Monitor BETA" now has "KARMA" for players and I can tell you that out of 24 player for both teams just 1-2-3 have "KARMA" above 0 on average... this was very surprising revelation to me...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

[DFens_666]

8 minutes ago, Yukikaze_AL said:

I'm confident that some players just have to vent sometimes and therefore will always end up with low karma!

I assure you those players can't change their behavior easily as it's their nature and they shouldn't be punished for that! 

 

Im raging rather often in chat (especially these days, since it cant be called playing a game anymore what the average player is doing), yet i dont actually get reported that often for it.

Most of the time i get reported by teammates or salty enemies. I assume atleast, since there is no way of telling who reported you. Ofc sometimes they expose themselves.

 

Was just chatbanned, and i think i lost 3 or 4 karma during that period And during the game which triggered my chatban, i even got complimented

 

1 minute ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

The new "Match Making Monitor BETA" now has "KARMA" for players and I can tell you that out of 24 player for both teams just 1-2-3 have "KARMA" above 0 on average... this was very surprising revelation to me... 

 

I dont think it is? Majority of players is so bad, why would they ever get complimented? Most of the time, they will probably report each other to keep their Karma at 0. I think, unless you are often top XP earner, you wont accumulate karma.

Lets face it, most people cant understand whats happening during a game, but some might throw out a compliment based on first in XP, or getting a kraken/highcaliber or just turning the game at the end (if they are still around)

[mcboernester]

Ingame karma is one of wgs mistakes, though i assume it has very low priority since it doesn't hurt anyone. My Karma is jumping up and down all the time, in fact the better i play the higher the chances of getting reported ^^ 

[lovelacebeer]

It's worth a try at the very least, yes some people will find ways to exploit such a reward system because people always do it's human nature but it would act as an incentive to encourage most people to behave better, and those who don't want to have clearly made their choice. 

 

Still personally I believe karma is doing what it was intended to do, it's a vent for salty people who hate dying and a positive reinforcement to people who care about such things. 

 

[Sir_Sinksalot]

I think karma points should increase the % chance of super container drop rates. This way, even though the % chance increase would be tiny, players would still most likely actually try and get complimented so would be less toxic in chat and try and play as good as they can. 

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I dont think it is? Majority of players is so bad, why would they ever get complimented? Most of the time, they will probably report each other to keep their Karma at 0. I think, unless you are often top XP earner, you wont accumulate karma.

 

Lets face it, most people cant understand whats happening during a game, but some might throw out a compliment based on first in XP, or getting a kraken/highcaliber or just turning the game at the end (if they are still around)

 

I know... but over the long period of time I thought that players would at least accumulate some "KARMA":..

 

BTW, last weekend (I posted it in "Carry Harder" thread) I was in DIV with @WolfGewehr and we lost very close battle on points after both our DDs suicided at the start. I had 5 kills (Kraken) and he got 1. We were at the top with massive BaseXP in defeat. We both got 3 compliments each from that single battle... so people do watch battles unfold till the end and they do reward the "KARMA"...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Zigiran]

I see a problem with this:

 

In a recent game I torped some smoke in my DD and catched 2 enemy DD's in them: dev strike, first blood, double strike, 3 minutes into the game. Oh, and 2 reports.

If playing good / getting lucky (did not expect to catch a 2nd dd in that smoke) means I get reported and I loose karma, then I'm not sure if there should be benefits to karma.

 

On the other hand: giving a benefit to karma would effectively remove CV's from the game, since playing those is a guaranteed loss in karma it seems?

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

I know... but over the long period of time I thought that players would at least accumulate some "KARMA":..

 

I sometimes watch a streamer who has 14k battles played and almost 58% WR... and he has like <10 Karma. And he barely uses chat

[beercrazy]

play cv and forget about karma

 

its a part of the game that's used by support as a  cheap easy answer to any tickets you may raise for abuse, teamkills, afk ect ect

I do give as much +1 karma as I can just so a player will know someone was happy with the way they played

[mein_nick_ist_besetzt]

As long as I get reported within the first 30 seconds of the match for playing a CV and then again later the same match for being good in it... I don't really fancy your idea

 

... and sometimes in between for "cv not supporting", whatever that means.

[genosse]

29 minutes ago, Zigiran said:

I see a problem with this:

 

In a recent game I torped some smoke in my DD and catched 2 enemy DD's in them: dev strike, first blood, double strike, 3 minutes into the game. Oh, and 2 reports.

If playing good / getting lucky (did not expect to catch a 2nd dd in that smoke) means I get reported and I loose karma, then I'm not sure if there should be benefits to karma.

 

On the other hand: giving a benefit to karma would effectively remove CV's from the game, since playing those is a guaranteed loss in karma it seems?

Perhaps only upvotes from the opposite team should be taken into account. You won't be able to "punish" someone from the opposing team, who insults you in public chat, but this only happens on rare occasions anyway, imho. Most of the flaming seems to happen in team chat.

So maybe count only upvotes from the OPFOR, and both negative and positive votes from your own teammates.

[genosse]

25 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

play cv and forget about karma

 

9 minutes ago, mein_nick_ist_besetzt said:

As long as I get reported within the first 30 seconds of the match for playing a CV

I actually do play CV (though probably not as much as you guys do) and yes, I get more downvotes than playing any other class, but I also get more upvotes if I  support the team properly.

That default report just for playing CV is something I experience very, very rarely - probably negligible in the grand scheme of things.

 

But yeah, I don't want to invalidate your opinion/concerns, of course, because that's just your experience speaking, which is hard to argue away.

 

Another one for the "the devs should think of a solution" list.

 

Still, you won't lose out even with 0 karma - you can only improve. As I suggested, this is stricly meant as positive reinforcement and if you don't care about that, or don't manage to accumulate karma, nothing will change for you.

[SSGdoncollier]

@The_Monk said once

 

Ive been reported/downvoted for:

 

- Playing bad (obviously)

 

- Playing a CV (oh man havent I just)

 

- Playing a radar cruiser (f...ing radars)

 

- Playing a hydro cruiser (f...ing hydros)

 

- Playing a DD (f...ing DDs)

 

- Playing a BB (f...ing BBs)

 

- Playing a premium (f...ing P2W)

 

- Setting an enemy ship on fire 4 times in a row

 

- Killing someone

 

- Not killing someone

 

- Missing a shot (f...ing useless idiot)

 

- Hitting a shot (f...ing kill stealer)

 

- Colliding with another ship

 

- Pushing agressively 

 

- Not pushing aggresively

 

- Beeing critical in chat

 

- Not beeing critical in chat (telling everybody currently raging to cool it) 

 

- Playing whatever ship is the most hated ship of the month

 

 

(This is NOT an exhaustive list by no stretch of the imiganiation, just a small sample)

 

... you get the idea. The whole system is laughable. People will literally report anyone that doesnt conform to their own preferences, or make simple mistakes we all do. You can even report players on the opposing team ffs.Here is 

[RAHJAILARI]

NAAH! It is fine, as is since we have to recognize this system is wide open to abuse. I have myself been reported at least 5 times just last weekend simply because I sank some enemy ship and the player wanted to get revenge by reporting me (good example, a Smolensk sitting in smoke... Got citadelled by me, when I fired AP into it blind). That apparently makes me a bot and an aim-bot user, sure thing. Not that I mind, but if there was actually something of value to be gained from this the situation would quickly get much worse.

 

How do I know, that this happened? Well the lads announced it in game chat, of course.

[genosse]

6 minutes ago, SSGdoncollier said:

(This is NOT an exhaustive list by no stretch of the imiganiation, just a small sample)

 

... you get the idea. The whole system is laughable. People will literally report anyone that doesnt conform to their own preferences, or make simple mistakes we all do. You can even report players on the oppsing team ffs.

I know, but again: Just by giving karma a purpose, you will not be worse off than you are now, when going by my suggestion. Even if you are flamed to hell and back, you will still get the baseline drop chances that we currently "enjoy".

 

And it's totally possible to regularly get positive karma, by the way. It's just that nobody tries, because it doesn't have a purpose.

 

Don't underestimate the influence even a small reward can have on people's behaviour.

[Kikan_Nagato]

3 minutes ago, genosse said:

I know, but again: Just by giving karma a purpose, you will not be worse off than you are now, when going by my suggestion. Even if you are flamed to hell and back, you will still get the baseline drop chances that we currently "enjoy".

 

And it's totally possible to regularly get positive karma, by the way. It's just that nobody tries, because it doesn't have a purpose.

 

Don't underestimate the influence even a small reward can have on people's behaviour.

Players will grief each other on purpose to deny positive effects. It won't change anything.

[genosse]

9 minutes ago, Xi_Tian said:

Players will grief each other on purpose to deny positive effects. It won't change anything.

That is of course a possibility, but personally, I don't believe many people are so mean-spirited.

It's also not a good way to grief somebody, in my opinion, because the (small) effects aren't immediately visible, and that reaction is usually what trolls desire.

 

I know this is a sexist statement, but at least men seem to prefer to be a lot less subtle with their rage.

 

I don't think karma-griefing will dethrone "fu noob" as the weapon of choice, and I think the possible final outcome, if those systems were implemented, is still open for discussion.

[FukushuNL]

Karma as you describe it is "you get good things if you are nice" it being a balance/trade off, but that only works if there is a higher neutral power that handles such a system. Ingame, other people are in control of your karma, so you can be as nice as you want to, karma won't be guaranteed coming your way. So the incentive for being nice isn't that promissing. If they made a system that everyone would HAVE to give a compliment to at least 1 player after the match, then people might be working more toward that as there is a guarenteed chance on getting Karma.