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MutsuAraAra

Anyone else disappointed by the Swedi... Pan-EU DD line

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Disapointed by the fact its 90% Swedish...

 

Where are the Dutch, Polish, Romanian, Spanish, Yugoslav, Portuguese, Finnish, and Turkish DDs? Do those countries navies not count? Does WG have a huge Swedish market to appeal to?

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Think its down to the swedish ships being the only nation to actualy build their own ships. All other countries have either bought or licensebuilt already existing ships.

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Mighty Jingles had a youtube video about this subject....

 

Basically none of the other navies have - for the period covered by WoW - original ships available to them. Many of the designs are already heavily influenced if not outright copies of the designs of major nations.  Jingles mentions in the video how some of the Dutch designs have already been incorporated as part of other lines (Gadja Madah being one example) as they were export products, co-opted into other navies or designs stolen / used during WW II.

 

Basically, for the other navies, you have to rely on paper projects, if you want to avoid the Swedes. 

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2 minutes ago, Floofz said:

Think its down to the swedish ships being the only nation to actualy build their own ships. All other countries have either bought or licensebuilt already existing ships.

Man.
Spain could practically make its own DD branch.
The Dutch have plenty interesting actual vessels.
Poland and Greece have a few aswell. Same goes for Yugoslavia.

And all almost if not completely original.

 

Minor naval European nations are probably the largest unused original material this game has left to use (along with some vessels in South-America, a couple Asiatic designs and the rest of the Italian branches...)

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I don't particularly care, to be honest, it seems like an interesting line regardless of it being 90% Ikea. At first I was a bit disappointed that the new DD's don't follow the design example of Friesland - the torpless DD proved to be quite effective while being unique in playstyle, but having seem streamers play the new boats, I'd say they offer some unique gameplay themselves.

 

We'll see how it goes, as always.

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4 minutes ago, Captain_Newman said:

I don't particularly care, to be honest, it seems like an interesting line regardless of it being 90% Ikea.

I think I do in the sense that some rather historic ships haven't made it into the game (Sleipner, Stord, Isaac Sweers), but there is always room for them (if WG discovers the appetite for non-gimmick based Premiums). But the Swedish line looks fun....

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Right now i'm impressed by how spectacularly bad they are, i have got 2 dev strike on  them and it was TTT/wgp2w guys on the halland and smaland,also my clanmate oneshotted them and i see them dying very fast at the start of the game, even from very good players

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3 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

Basically none of the other navies have - for the period covered by WoW - original ships available to them.

 

Just to add example to my previous argument :

Marasti/Mellila (unless you wanna see them in an Italian branch which doesn't need 'em at all)
Churucca
Alava
Oquendo
Roger de la Lauria
Regele ferdinand
Vasilefs Georgios I
Dubrovnik
Split
Kocatepe
Gerard Callenburgh
Grom
Holland

 

And these are real classes (if I haven't made a mistake due to late time-post, if so, I apologize). You even have some interesting, complete designs that are NOT just napkin drawings, such as the Austro-Hungarian 1000t TB and 1600t DD from MTK, amongst a serie that could fill low-tier on its own, or the Spanish Project 148A which is basically TX material.
Not to Mention Oquendo had can be impleted in 2 ways, her 3*2 120mm or 4*2 105mm + 7TT, and Split in 3 ways, her original configuration with 140mm, her real US-armed 127mm variant, or her Italian Spalato concept with the 135mm and better propulsion at the expense of number of TTs ; hell, this Tromp preliminary design with 4*2 120mm could even fit well as a high-tier DD.

Seriously. The Swede had a fair share but you can do practically 4 DD branches with EU minors, with Scandinavia and Iberia owning one each. Look it up a bit before claiming none other had original ships available.

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4 hours ago, MutsuAraAra said:

Disapointed by the fact its 90% Swedish...

 

Where are the Dutch, Polish, Romanian, Spanish, Yugoslav, Portuguese, Finnish, and Turkish DDs? Do those countries navies not count? Does WG have a huge Swedish market to appeal to?

Dutch: Only had one original design, rest were Acasta clones (with a sea plane).

Polish: Their two most interesting designs are in the game already, the only other one's a Borrasque clone.

Romania: Shakespear clone (Jianwei, essentially)

Spanish: Medea clone or Shakespear clone.

Yugoslavia: Only had one design

Portugese:  Acasta clones

Finns: No DD's

Turkey: Some more Shakespear clones, oh and a Icarus clone for good measure.

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2 hours ago, lafeel said:

Dutch: Only had one original design, rest were Acasta clones (with a sea plane).

Polish: Their two most interesting designs are in the game already, the only other one's a Borrasque clone.

Romania: Shakespear clone (Jianwei, essentially)

Spanish: Medea clone or Shakespear clone.

Yugoslavia: Only had one design

Portugese:  Acasta clones

Finns: No DD's

Turkey: Some more Shakespear clones, oh and a Icarus clone for good measure.

What is missing in your list is ironically other Scandinavian countries destroyers. 

 

Norway:

Draug class (Norwegian design) 

Sleipner class (Norwegian design) 

Stord class (British S class) 

Oslo class (British CR class) 

Ålesund class (Norwegian design) 

 

Out of the original designs we have low tier material as it looks, Draug would be a T2 (similar to USS Smith), Sleipner would fit at T2-3 (similar to HMAS Vampire), Ålesund could fit at T4-5 (similar to Klas Horn / Visby). 

 

Depending on how WG sees it the Slepiner class where used by Germany under multiple names, like Löwe (former Geller) and Ålesund herself where launched as ZN4 (Zerstören Norwegen) and they implement them under either German or Pan-EU flag. 

 

Denmark:

Dragen class (Danish design) 

Glenten class (Danish design)

Huitfeldt class (Danish design) 

 

Also low tier material, with maim armaments of 75 to 105 mm limited to two single mounts we are looking at T2-3 at most. 

 

As far as I have understood it the T6 Västerås is supposed to be a Swedish tender to the Polish navy for what later became the Gorm class (Blyskawica). 

 

So if WG wanted to I could see them replace Remulus with Huitfeldt,  Klas Horn with Ålesund and rename Västerås with some Polish name and still keep the intended playstyle of the line while reducing the player base's feeling of IKEA ships. 

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7 hours ago, MutsuAraAra said:

Disapointed by the fact its 90% Swedish...

 

Where are the Dutch, Polish, Romanian, Spanish, Yugoslav, Portuguese, Finnish, and Turkish DDs? Do those countries navies not count? Does WG have a huge Swedish market to appeal to?

 

3 hours ago, LastButterfly said:

 

Just to add example to my previous argument :

Marasti/Mellila (unless you wanna see them in an Italian branch which doesn't need 'em at all)
Churucca
Alava
Oquendo
Roger de la Lauria
Regele ferdinand
Vasilefs Georgios I
Dubrovnik
Split
Kocatepe
Gerard Callenburgh
Grom
Holland

 

And these are real classes (if I haven't made a mistake due to late time-post, if so, I apologize). You even have some interesting, complete designs that are NOT just napkin drawings, such as the Austro-Hungarian 1000t TB and 1600t DD from MTK, amongst a serie that could fill low-tier on its own, or the Spanish Project 148A which is basically TX material.
Not to Mention Oquendo had can be impleted in 2 ways, her 3*2 120mm or 4*2 105mm + 7TT, and Split in 3 ways, her original configuration with 140mm, her real US-armed 127mm variant, or her Italian Spalato concept with the 135mm and better propulsion at the expense of number of TTs ; hell, this Tromp preliminary design with 4*2 120mm could even fit well as a high-tier DD.

Seriously. The Swede had a fair share but you can do practically 4 DD branches with EU minors, with Scandinavia and Iberia owning one each. Look it up a bit before claiming none other had original ships available.

Hello,

          Not entirely sure where you're going with this. Holland for example is a Swedish design and is obviously represented because, well, she is in the game. Unless you are offering a different design which I could not find? Grom-class destroyers were yes, built for the Polish navy but were built in Britain and are of British design and influence. Dubrovnik is also mostly of British design too as was Vasilefs Georgios which were modified G-class destroyers. A couple of the other ships there were of Italian design and some built in Italy. This is the problem, it gets complicated. Honestly while I'm sure there are plenty of people who would like to see other nations introduced into the game the fact is simple, all the leading nations of naval architecture, design, influence and power from the 1900s to the 1950s are already represented in the game, Britain, Japan, America, France, Germany, Italy. They were the easiest nations to pick lines out of because they had the most influence at sea, and Russians *cough* due to having too much paper so they kept designing stuff that would never be built.

 

Point being, these nations had the designs and numbers to relatively easily make tech-tree lines from tier two to tier ten that would fit into the game without affecting historical accuracy too much. This is something vital which nations like Turkey, Denmark, Poland, Greece, Romania, Egypt, India, Finland, the list goes on and on. These less influential nations don't have enough ships and designs from the time period of the game to provide a solid tech-tree in the game from tier one to tier ten that would not affect historical accuracy to a severe degree while also containing ships which represented their country's design and engineering at all tiers. This is why you will be more likely to see these ships in another line, there is the possibility they can be included in a pan-european split or as premiums/special ships.

 

Honestly I get the point being made here and while I agree that WarGaming could have probably delved a bit more into why exactly they didn't include designs into the EU DDs that weren't primarily Swedish at the same time I can understand why considering the line has to feel evolutionary, there should be a pattern of gameplay as you progress from one ship to the next and Sweden was just an easy pick for a nation that wasn't as influential as Britain, America, Japan etc. But if I understood them right they will eventually get to releasing ships from nations like the ones asked about in this thread. When though, who knows but I do look forward to it of course.

 

Kind regards,

                       Minia

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8 hours ago, Floofz said:

Think its down to the swedish ships being the only nation to actualy build their own ships. All other countries have either bought or licensebuilt already existing ships.

 

8 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

Mighty Jingles had a youtube video about this subject....

 

Basically none of the other navies have - for the period covered by WoW - original ships available to them. Many of the designs are already heavily influenced if not outright copies of the designs of major nations.  Jingles mentions in the video how some of the Dutch designs have already been incorporated as part of other lines (Gadja Madah being one example) as they were export products, co-opted into other navies or designs stolen / used during WW II.

 

Basically, for the other navies, you have to rely on paper projects, if you want to avoid the Swedes. 

I am so glad the pan-asian ships aren't all bought from different countries and then renamed :) 

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1 hour ago, FukushuNL said:

I am so glad the pan-asian ships aren't all bought from different countries and then renamed :) 

Well, yes: for all the talk about other lines being "clones" and therefore being undesirable, that does rather gloss over the fact that DD lines are slightly repetitive... four Gnevnys, three V and W class, two J/K/N Class,  two Bensons, Fletchers, Farraguts, Tribals, Le Fantasques, Shiratsuyu's and room for more. The question is whether you can make them into a relatively consistent line. That's why we have the Swedish ones first. A "Southern Europe" line will emerge, I'm sure, when WG works how what to do with it...

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It probably is just easier to built a line that could easily evolve up a tech tree, if a line is very mixed they will change gun calibre and torp type a lot, therefore harder to balance out.

 

Still I'm confident the EU DD line will be expanded over time, they probably just want to think of a common theme to base a lines progression around.

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10 hours ago, Floofz said:

Think its down to the swedish ships being the only nation to actualy build their own ships. All other countries have either bought or licensebuilt already existing ships.

Funny enough I think its due to the fact there is bunch of Swedes playing WG products and they will be more apt to spent on a Swedish ship and not say Romanian, Yugoslavian or Dutch...

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7 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Funny enough I think its due to the fact there is bunch of Swedes playing WG products and they will be more apt to spent on a Swedish ship and not say Romanian, Yugoslavian or Dutch...

 

There's also plenty of people from all those countries playing the game, though, enough to have a market for them. Regardless, it's fine, more lines will come.

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Oh I dont doubt there are, however I seem to remember someone a while back described the proverbial frenzy feed when the Swedish tanks came to WOT and I think WG remembers as well ^^

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Personally I don't see what is a problem here. Sure 8 out of 9 DDs in the line, not counting Gryf as it is a starting point for all Pan European lines, are Swedish but that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be more sub branches in that line. More will come eventually, for sure. Maybe WG decided to make national sub-branches for those navies that, by time, be moved into their own separate lines. WG already mentioned that they could do that in the future but for now as the most convenient way for captain training/retraining, premium ships and similar stuff they are moving them all to one tree. This way, if and when WG decide to move, let's say Swedish or Duch or Polish ship into separate tree they could do that easily, without need to pluck some particular ship from particular tier and now need to fill the gap with another DD which, in the future, could again be moved from that place. 

 

I watched Jingles video when he shared his opinion on why are DDs mostly from Sweden but I don't agree with it. If that is a case then Pan Asian or Pan American trees wouldn't have any sense as their ships are either purposly built for them by US or Britain or small number of other countries, or US, Britain or some other country DDs that are transferred to other navies after they were consider obsolete.   

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If these DDs were all from different nations and had different gameplay-styles, you would need extra captains/builds for each of them.

So IMHO it makes sense having a line all from the same nation. Just make cruisers or BBs from a different nation.

 

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14 hours ago, Floofz said:

Think its down to the swedish ships being the only nation to actualy build their own ships. All other countries have either bought or licensebuilt already existing ships.

That did not stop WG releasing the Anshan and Siliwangi ... so I don't see an issue here ... Also some of the RU DDs were designed and built by Italy ...

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Well I think that there would be some sub branches in the future. There's a lot to be added so no worries here. 

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7 hours ago, CptMinia said:

Holland for example is a Swedish design and is obviously represented because, well, she is in the game.

First of :

Holland.
http://www.navypedia.org/ships/netherlands/nl_dd_holland.htm
Not Halland.
http://www.navypedia.org/ships/sweden/sw_dd_halland.htm

 

7 hours ago, CptMinia said:

Grom-class destroyers were yes, built for the Polish navy but were built in Britain and are of British design and influence. Dubrovnik is also mostly of British design too as was Vasilefs Georgios which were modified G-class destroyers. A couple of the other ships there were of Italian design and some built in Italy. This is the problem, it gets complicated.

 

Excuse me, I didn't know this game was about "showcasing the different approaches to naval architecture of the first half of the 20th century".

I thought that "adding boats that aren't exact copies of what we have in game" was perfectly enough. Hell, with the pan-asian line which starts to be old, even exact copies go !

 

7 hours ago, CptMinia said:

and Russians *cough* due to having too much paper so they kept designing stuff that would never be built.

 

Speaking about Russia, you should be aware that at least a quarter of their vessels or plans were just derived from foreign influences or concepts, notably Italian, hu ? Just saying...

 

7 hours ago, CptMinia said:

This is something vital which nations like Turkey, Denmark, Poland, Greece, Romania, Egypt, India, Finland, the list goes on and on. These less influential nations don't have enough ships and designs from the time period of the game to provide a solid tech-tree in the game from tier one to tier ten that would not affect historical accuracy to a severe degree while also containing ships which represented their country's design and engineering at all tiers.

 

Aaaand this is why a PAN-eu techtree should combine vessels from multiple nations, to make a full, original branch out of it. This is the very point of such a tree...

 

7 hours ago, CptMinia said:

Honestly I get the point being made here

 

With all due respect I think you are mistaken. I have no objection having a practically all-swedish line and making other lines for the rest of EU. I did it in my own trees anyway.
I was just answering to those who said other countries don't have any original vessels, as if a pan-EU tree would, in the likes of the pan-asian branch, be made of a collection of disarmed Fletchers. And likewise, I answer to you regarding your argument that these ships are not "technological innovations that were entirely home build" because if it had been anytime before a reason not to include vessels or branches in the game wewouldn't have pan-asia (obviously), we wouldn't have half the russian tree and we wouldeven not have several japanese ships.

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Im pretty sure they will add more dd lines as time goes on.

 

remember it is the pan euro line which means you should expect a big tech tree with multiple nations.

just that weegee takes the next centuary to put out but eh i understand the reason for that.

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