Sov.Soyuz and the average to bad player story.

[Nit0]

On 1/26/2020 at 6:37 PM, cimmerian_steel said:

There is a lot of wisdom in this post and I can't argue with it. I am guilty of simply going through the motions on a lot of games simply to just get the XP so I can put a "ship I don't like past me" and move to the next one. This more than anything ruins my stats which I really don't care about.

But I do care about having fun and my frustration with that ship made me start the thread.  I have a Jean Bart, I am not good with it, but I when I play it, I know it is going to reward me consistently. The Sov. Soyuz is not even guaranteed to reward a full broadside on a non moving ship. You never know where the shells will fly or what kind of damage they will do. I can't, I just can't... I even liked the Colorado more.. 

 

My recommendation to you: Grind it through, since you already have it.

- Sell it and consider if you want Kremlin. Maybe you will like it better, since you liked t8 one. Kremlin is strong, but again requires brawling. You already have Kurfurst.

- If you decide to not buy it, go for Iowa and Montana if you liked North Carolina.

- Japanese battleships: Reliable guns at all ranges

 

Even though a ship is good, doesn't mean that everyone have to like it. In my clan we have discussions like this all the time, and tbh it makes the game more interesting. 

[BarskiPatzow]

Well, I finished SS very soon but I opted out of buying Kremlin and instead went on to start grinding british and french BBs and restarted playing US BBs and damn was it a good decision, I love British BBs, I just feel like they fit what I want to do in a BB so much better than anything else! I loved the Tier 5 one. Similar is for the French ones, loved the tier 5. I feel like it was a good decision to drop down 5 tiers and enjoy the game and learn the game more. As for SS, i had around 64k average damage and almost 52% percent WR, which is good for a player of my skill since my average WR is still under 50% ( I try to fix that), so I guess it is good, just angle a bit and enjoy tanking a lot. I didn't find that line that much of a fun line so I didn't buy Kremlin in the end. 

Since someone said it's easy to set on fire and is abused by Smolensk, well.... My favorite target in a Smolensk are tier 10 and 9 German BBs, so I think SS is not the most abused BB in that regard.

What bothered me with SS is the feeling you can't do anything else than bow tanking on close to medium range, high rate of fire and no ability to fend off DDs.

[cimmerian_steel]

10 hours ago, Nit0 said:

My recommendation to you: Grind it through, since you already have it.

- Sell it and consider if you want Kremlin. Maybe you will like it better, since you liked t8 one. Kremlin is strong, but again requires brawling. You already have Kurfurst.

- If you decide to not buy it, go for Iowa and Montana if you liked North Carolina.

- Japanese battleships: Reliable guns at all ranges

 

Even though a ship is good, doesn't mean that everyone have to like it. In my clan we have discussions like this all the time, and tbh it makes the game more interesting. 

I finally got the Kremlin about an hour or so ago.  Only played one game in it. Seems OK. Fired a few long range and a few short range shots and they seemed

predictable.  So no complaints there.

I enjoyed the comments very much. I can rant about the Sov.Soyuz till the cows come home still, but it is passed me now.

[Muki321]

On 1/28/2020 at 2:34 PM, BarskiPatzow said:

What bothered me with SS is the feeling you can't do anything else than bow tanking on close to medium range, high rate of fire and no ability to fend off DDs.

yup. it is very simple with russian BBs - close in to below 15km to targets while watching out that you dont get flanked and open fire. HE on angled bbs and dds, AP on everything else. if things dont go your way, go straight backwards. otherwise keep pushing with nose in. there is no turning left or right in thaose things...

 once you show flank while detected prepare to be severely punished...

[cimmerian_steel]

7 hours ago, Muki321 said:

yup. it is very simple with russian BBs - close in to below 15km to targets while watching out that you dont get flanked and open fire. HE on angled bbs and dds, AP on everything else. if things dont go your way, go straight backwards. otherwise keep pushing with nose in. there is no turning left or right in thaose things...

 once you show flank while detected prepare to be severely punished...

 

You are not wrong, but I have to say. Saying you are going to close in to less than 15km and doing it is two completely different things.

1st of all, there is a significant amount of damage you are going to sustain whilst going to where you want to go. Which, according to your advice upon spawning is straight ahead, because if you turn to go left or right, you have the same detectability as all other BBs but  not their range. Which means they will shoot at you and hit you, and you can't fire back and hence can't go anywhere else than straight ahead (most of the times)

 

Now tanking has been a mixed bag of tricks for me. You see for your bow to tank, enemy shells have to hit it. In my experience, only cruisers hit a BBs bow straight on with HE these days. BBs aim higher, the shells drop parabolically  on your front deck and cause massive amounts of damage. You got 88k health. that is about 10 hits from an Alsace or similar head on to your deck. If you are up against two BBs that is about 3-4 minutes of enemy fire and you are down to scraps of health.

Add a Cruiser firing at you or rocket planes from a CV and your fights can be very very short. Even a Henry caused 9+k of damage bow on with its AP shells hitting over the bow, so ...tanking , doesn't help much.

 

I strangely found the Sov.Soyuz to be very similar to the Moskva.  On paper both ships seem awesome.  When I played them... the guns did no damage, the ships were fragile, got focused on and ultimately were mostly ineffective during the fight.

 

I know they are capable of massive amounts of damage, but for me these times where too few and too far apart for both ships.

 

Every time I play, I see lots of other ships, very rarely are Moskvas and Sov.Soyuzs on the enemy team or mine. That must be saying something...

 

 

[Muki321]

15 hours ago, cimmerian_steel said:

 

You are not wrong, but I have to say. Saying you are going to close in to less than 15km and doing it is two completely different things.

1st of all, there is a significant amount of damage you are going to sustain whilst going to where you want to go. Which, according to your advice upon spawning is straight ahead, because if you turn to go left or right, you have the same detectability as all other BBs but  not their range. Which means they will shoot at you and hit you, and you can't fire back and hence can't go anywhere else than straight ahead (most of the times)

 

Now tanking has been a mixed bag of tricks for me. You see for your bow to tank, enemy shells have to hit it. In my experience, only cruisers hit a BBs bow straight on with HE these days. BBs aim higher, the shells drop parabolically  on your front deck and cause massive amounts of damage. You got 88k health. that is about 10 hits from an Alsace or similar head on to your deck. If you are up against two BBs that is about 3-4 minutes of enemy fire and you are down to scraps of health.

Add a Cruiser firing at you or rocket planes from a CV and your fights can be very very short. Even a Henry caused 9+k of damage bow on with its AP shells hitting over the bow, so ...tanking , doesn't help much.

 

I strangely found the Sov.Soyuz to be very similar to the Moskva.  On paper both ships seem awesome.  When I played them... the guns did no damage, the ships were fragile, got focused on and ultimately were mostly ineffective during the fight.

 

I know they are capable of massive amounts of damage, but for me these times where too few and too far apart for both ships.

 

Every time I play, I see lots of other ships, very rarely are Moskvas and Sov.Soyuzs on the enemy team or mine. That must be saying something...

 

 

i disagree on couple of points

 

first off, if you do not open fire you should not be detected before you reach below 15km mark. unless you are marching alone, without dd/cruiser support and run into enemy dd on your route... but that is a bad idea in any bb

 

below 15 km and even below (>12km) is where your guns shine. this is where you want to use them most of the time. and this is where, if angled properly, enemy bb AP will bounce of your sides or will overpen your superstructure, rather then going through your deck due to the high arc which is specific to long range shots.  i had games when i was able to take massive amounts of enemy fire with very acceptable amount of damage on my side, which was very helpful for my team since time they spend shooting at you they cant shoot at other, more vulnerable ships on my team...

 

Moskva, on the other hand is long range sniper, as any other Russian cruiser. use her at long ranges with her accurate laser like guns for best results. she plays completely different to Sov Soyuz

 

bottom line is, as with any other ships (except for Italian cruisers maybe :), both ships are good if played properly...

[ShinGetsu]

On 1/26/2020 at 1:29 AM, cimmerian_steel said:

3rd, I would choose something else, but I gotta grind through to the Kremlin, right, that is the crux of the game if I am not mistaken?

 

Why ?

 

If you fail at high tier and you know it, why do you want to push to those tier ? Who decided the game is only played at tier 10 ?

Each line of grind are promoting one playstyle. Some suits you more than others. I completely hate the german BB playstyle of "let the secondary do the work for you'" so I just ignore them and play what I like instead. Even if they one day become meta I still won't play them.

 

Play something you enjoy, at tier that you know you are actually useful, instead of forcing yourself to play high tier and f*cking failing epically at it. Save the nerves of your teammates who have to babysit you and save yourself a lot of frustration.

 

It's not like mid tier are bad. Tier 6 and 7 have a lot of amazing and fun ships.

 

As far as your stats goes, you are not doing nowhere near enough damage in average to have any kind of impact. I fail to understand how you can find that fun personally. You're playing 90.000HP+ battleships and you only do 45.000 damage in average. That's where your problem is. And not just with Soyouz. Same with JB and Kremlin.

[ShinGetsu]

 

EDIT : stupid forum and its double post for no reason.

[cimmerian_steel]

31 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

Why ?

 

If you fail at high tier and you know it, why do you want to push to those tier ? Who decided the game is only played at tier 10 ?

Each line of grind are promoting one playstyle. Some suits you more than others. I completely hate the german BB playstyle of "let the secondary do the work for you'" so I just ignore them and play what I like instead. Even if they one day become meta I still won't play them.

 

Play something you enjoy, at tier that you know you are actually useful, instead of forcing yourself to play high tier and f*cking failing epically at it. Save the nerves of your teammates who have to babysit you and save yourself a lot of frustration.

 

It's not like mid tier are bad. Tier 6 and 7 have a lot of amazing and fun ships.

 

As far as your stats goes, you are not doing nowhere near enough damage in average to have any kind of impact. I fail to understand how you can find that fun personally. You're playing 90.000HP+ battleships and you only do 45.000 damage in average. That's where your problem is. And not just with Soyouz. Same with JB and Kremlin.

Did I claim somewhere I am a good player and I missed it?  The very title of the post mentions I am bad.

Are you implying only players who do above 100k damage should play tiers 9 & 10? Because I regularly see players who don't. I guess they didn't get the memo either..

If I do 45k damage average, then I am not having fun according to you? My team players have to babysit me? 

I have a few BBs, I only complained about the Sov.Soyuz. I wonder why since I am not having any fun with any of the others either...hmmmm, I must be more stupid than I thought, or I just forgot.

Anyway, I thoroughly thank you for your enlightening contribution and I am not being sarcastic. This has been by far the most illuminating post. Just not about the game.

 

 

 

[ShinGetsu]

13 minutes ago, cimmerian_steel said:

Did I claim somewhere I am a good player and I missed it?  The very title of the post mentions I am bad.

Are you implying only players who do above 100k damage should play tiers 9 & 10? Because I regularly see players who don't. I guess they didn't get the memo either..

If I do 45k damage average, then I am not having fun according to you? My team players have to babysit me? 

I have a few BBs, I only complained about the Sov.Soyuz. I wonder why since I am not having any fun with any of the others either...hmmmm, I must be more stupid than I thought, or I just forgot.

Anyway, I thoroughly thank you for your enlightening contribution and I am not being sarcastic. This has been by far the most illuminating post. Just not about the game.

 

 

 

You complains about the Soyouz, but you fail equally badly with other battleship. Honestly it's pretty suprising you find only Soyouz bad but not the others.

 

And I was only reacting to the part I quoted. You wrote this as if you HAD to go to tier 10 for some reason... 

 

Btw, others players being bad isn't a reason to be bad yourself, amirite ?

 

I dunno. I don't have fun when I lose, even more when I know I'm not being efficient at all. If you have fun just going around sailing a ship and going BOOM with your guns, Coop should be more you kind of things than any PVP mode. Personally I hate being a liability.

[cimmerian_steel]

3 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

You complains about the Soyouz, but you fail equally badly with other battleship. Honestly it's pretty suprising you find only Soyouz bad but not the others.

 

And I was only reacting to the part I quoted. You wrote this as if you HAD to go to tier 10 for some reason... 

 

Btw, others players being bad isn't a reason to be bad yourself, amirite ?

 

I dunno. I don't have fun when I lose, even more when I know I'm not being efficient at all. If you have fun just going around sailing a ship and going BOOM with your guns, Coop should be more you kind of things than any PVP mode. Personally I hate being a liability.

 

It has thoroughly been a pleasure reading your comments. 

[starlight2098]

You know, i realise it's not the done thing to necro a thread like this, but it wasn't locked, so...

 

I found this topic quite galling.  Guided by a google search which found this topic I came here with similar issues to the OP, and the OP they were quoting (which also came up in the search and which I read.)  I'm having a lot of trouble with this line and I was looking for advice on how to play it properly. 

 

What do I find instead?  A bunch of people defending the ship and attacking the player.  Well, that's just not helpful for them or me.  In fact its rather toxic.  You literally have someone in this thread saying, "What, you do less than 100k damage per battle?  HOW DARE YOU PLAY AT T10."  Well, here's some uncomfortable facts:  It is a logical impossibility for everyone in a match to be above average.  It's impossible for everyone on your team to have 3 kills and 100k damage, there's just not that much damage or kills to be had.  For someone to be doing well, someone else has to do badly.  And since the unicum players pull a disproportionate almount of that damage, that means the vast majority of players have to be playing at a level at which that person disapproves of them and considers them a liability.  Well, if those players weren't there, one of two things would happen, either currently 'good' players would become the new 'bad' players or there just wouldn't be enough players to sustain the game in the first place - and a drop in income for WG is something which definitely happens and the game could literally die. 

 

Below average players don't just have a right to play the game, they are literally sustaining the game as well as allowing the more skilled players to define themselves as more skilled. 

 

They also have a right to ask for help and try to improve themselves without getting insulted. 

 

And I say this as a player who stinks (49% wr, 3.2k games, 0.76 k/d before you go looking.)  Not for lack of effort - I've been watching videos and reading guides on how to better your game since it was in open beta - and whilst I can dispense that advice and help out my clan-mates and friends, I have a hard time making it all come together at the right time in my own games.  Usually because I'm playing too aggressively, it's a personality fault.  I'm working on it.  But at least I'm helping other players hit those 100k damage marks they're so damn proud of! 

 

 

Which brings me back to my original point, that I came here for help with, in case anyone feels like helping me with that. 

 

I have had one game in the Sovietsky Soyuz.  And I realise that's not a lot to base a lot of anything from, but it's enough to see some writing on the wall. 

 

The Sinop was awesome, great fun, made me want to playing close range brawling battleships forever.  The Vladivostok was similar, but all-too-frequently got burned down before it could get into effective range whenever it was downtiered.  And my first game in SS?  Well of course it was at high tier.  And so despite using island cover (and no, that's not a great idea in a high tier BB to begin with these days anyway, especially not with Russian BB's and Dutch carpet bombing going around now,) I got burned down in no time (and SS may not actually burn more than other ships, but it sure as heck FELT like it did, with the thing relighting again the very instant the DC expired.)

 

So my question, at length, is thus:  How the heck DO you get to close range in a Russian BB in the long range sniping meta at high tier on the EU server?  Because I don't see a way of doing it that doesn't get you focussed and burned down in no time at all.  And I really would like to actually be effective.  Getting locked in to a charge because turning away means showing broadside and dying sooner is my personal curse in WOWS in general, but with this thing it's playstyle.  How do I make that count?  How do I get in a position to make it count?  I'm reaching out here!  Please help! 

[ColonelPete]

35 minutes ago, starlight2098 said:

What do I find instead?  A bunch of people defending the ship and attacking the player. 

That happens when people do not ask for advice, but whine about a ship.

37 minutes ago, starlight2098 said:

So my question, at length, is thus:  How the heck DO you get to close range in a Russian BB in the long range sniping meta at high tier on the EU server?  Because I don't see a way of doing it that doesn't get you focussed and burned down in no time at all.  And I really would like to actually be effective.  Getting locked in to a charge because turning away means showing broadside and dying sooner is my personal curse in WOWS in general, but with this thing it's playstyle.  How do I make that count?  How do I get in a position to make it count?  I'm reaching out here!  Please help! 

• Read the map
• Approach under the cover of islands, do NOT sit behind them, they are a tool for a moving BB
• Read the map, when not sure, stay at mid range
• when there is no cover, read the map again, make sure that you can take the fire, when not, stay back

Reading the map is a skill you learn with experience.There are millions of different battle situiations, with many different right and many more different wrong options how to handle them. There is no book for that.

You have to learn when it is ok to move forward and when not by experience.

 

Btw. Sojuz is still one of the strongest Tier IX tech tree BB. And there is a good chance the german BC will lose performance the next couple of weeks.

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20211204/eu_2month/average_ship_u.html

[starlight2098]

7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

That happens when people do not ask for advice, but whine about a ship.

 

People need to vent sometimes!  And the ship doesn't have feelings to hurt.  The player does however and they're a lot more likely to listen to you if you show sympathy and understanding.  Making them feel angrier is going to have the opposite effect, people entrench when they're under fire.

 

That said, thank you for the advice! 

 

I do try and read the map, but alas, I tend to react impulsively to situations I see developing and which apparently no-one else does.  Thus, I tend to end up dying a lonely death whilst my allies stay in cover. 

 

Staying at range is a hard ask in a Russian BB, because the awful dispersion really makes one feel like they aren't contributing and should be doing better by closing in.  But I'll give it a try and see if I can develop better timing for my big push! 

 

My main concern for this strategy however is that mid range for this thing is well within HE spam range for CL's in good cover, and by the time you've wandered into that, it's probably already too late.  Submarines and DD's are a similar threat.  Both can ruin your game, both can be completely invisible before you've made your move.  And the cruisers at least tend to inspire an, "Okay, I'm at least going to take them down before they kill me," and boom, another suicide rush.  It is VERY hard to fight that impulse, especially after a bunch of experiences trying to withdraw, either by turning and getting citadelled or reversing and burning to death slowly.  And dear goodness but this thing doesn't like to turn, or accelerate.  Or decelerate.  Or not catch fire.  (And of course it's stock, every ship starts out stock.) 

 

So is that the choice?  Potential overcautious ineffectiveness or a roll on unfavourable dice?  Or am I missing something? 

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, starlight2098 said:

People need to vent sometimes!  And the ship doesn't have feelings to hurt.  The player does however and they're a lot more likely to listen to you if you show sympathy and understanding.  Making them feel angrier is going to have the opposite effect, people entrench when they're under fire.

I am not their mommy. People blaming a ship lack a fundamental ability to improve: self-reflection.

Blaming someone/something else is the death of self improvement. Such people do not want to learn, just vent. There are people who get paid to listen to that.

6 minutes ago, starlight2098 said:

Or am I missing something? 

That she is one of the strongest ships on her Tier. The rest is mostly worse.

[starlight2098]

 

25 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I am not their mommy.

 

You're not their mommy, but neither are you required to respond at all.  And making an insulting, unhelpful response is running counter to your own goals as well as theirs. 

 

They won't improve their play, they won't help spread improved behaviour by example, and no-one reading this thread will find useful info by which to improve their own game.  All insulting them does is make YOU feel a brief thrill of satisfaction.  And given how fleeting that is, I have to say it can't be any more worth your time to type it than it's worth mine to read it.   And if your problem with the OP's are down to their emotional indulgeance, well then.

 

This forum should be a resource for players.  Not a dive bar for smack-talking.

[ColonelPete]

4 minutes ago, starlight2098 said:

 

 

You're not their mommy, but neither are you required to respond at all.  And making an insulting, unhelpful response is running counter to your own goals as well as theirs. 

 

They won't improve their play, they won't help spread improved behaviour by example, and no-one reading this thread will find useful info by which to improve their own game.  All insulting them does is make YOU feel a brief thrill of satisfaction.  And given how fleeting that is, I have to say it can't be any more worth your time to type it than it's worth mine to read it.   And if your problem with the OP's are down to their emotional indulgeance, well then.

 

This forum should be a resource for players.  Not a dive bar for smack-talking.

This is a public forum.

I can decide for my own if I want to post or not, as can the people opening a thread decide if they want to bring their issue to the publics attention.

I usually do not insult other players, that is too primitive, but I may make fun of people who obviously are not interested to learn. People who honestly ask for help, do get it from me.

 

People that do not want help, will not improve, no matter what other people write to them. They just look for affirmation of their views, which is that they are blameless and that the problem lies somewhere else (the ship, the other players, maps, WG, the Pope or the position of the stars,....