How to encourage spearheading?

[AcceptYourDeath]

First of all I have to say I don`t have a idea myself how to encourage leading the attack, but I think there should be a focus gameplay wise to encourage it.

 

If you`ve played WoT and currently playing WoW I bet you know the feeling some players on your team hold back on purpose. Some say it`s a tactical decision by them, others would say they are just letting the team down and sacrifice their teammates, untill they engage. It will always be a endless debate who`s gonna cut the corner first. I always felt WoT can`t really reward players doing the work and taking the risk, they are left with the risk for the most part.

 

Will we see spotting damage in WoW, afaik it isn`t implemented atm?!

Could passive buffs to a ship which is seen as the spearhead for the time being a idea? Although this doesn`t seem suitable for this kind of games! Could there be additional active ship skills besides smoke or upgrades similar to a camouflage net in WoT? Maybe there could be a firerange link between ships, active or passive, time limited or position limited - I don`t know 

[Silvercat18]

The pattern of most games seems to be for everyone to head for the sides of the map. This is because anyone who goes into the middle is shot to pieces by enemy battleships. The exception is destroyers, who can head for the middle but are guaranteed to run into their own kind, usually resulting in a quick, somewhat violent end to one of the parties.

 

Battleships are pretty much forced into this. They are a large target and their guns must focus on one direction. Cruisers are too fragile and easily focused if they go in front and anyone who does manage to take the risk and survive is going to run smack bang into enemy destroyers at close range, which is often fatal.

 

Its sad, but the game does promote rank cowardice from pretty much everyone involved. Its the natural side effect of ships having such massive gun ranges and of torpedo boats being so stealthy and lethal in close ranges. That isn't even mentioning the attacks from carriers on anyone who presents themselves as the first large target.

[Captain_Edwards]

Bad map design to blame. Too many long open lines of sight to spawn points and near spawn points. Not enough variation in layout, blatant favouring of one team in the map design (ocean/sun position), frankly moronic layouts for cap points (looking at your Islands of Ice) and generally a complete lack of forethought in island size.

 

It makes anyone with a bit of practice extremely cagey, and unlikely to move forward or lead the attack

[OldGrandad]

I always go out front to 'light up' enemies first (I play cruisers mostly) in order to allow other ships to spot them and make decisions accordingly. One thing I never do and that is to 'follow my leader' down one side as that is a poor tactic.

 

Captain_Edwards mentions maps and yes, due to the frequency we play on them a lot of players choose tactics prior to start no matter any other options so stagnancy appears due to the 'samey' game play.

 

Back to the OP's suggestion, anyone in a cruiser or destroyer can lead the way but they will need BB and CV cover in order to make this tactic work but if BB's 'border hug' this is unlikely to happen. We just need more brave captains! 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Bad map design to blame. Too many long open lines of sight to spawn points and near spawn points. Not enough variation in layout, blatant favouring of one team in the map design (ocean/sun position), frankly moronic layouts for cap points (looking at your Islands of Ice) and generally a complete lack of forethought in island size.

 

It makes anyone with a bit of practice extremely cagey, and unlikely to move forward or lead the attack

 

Yep, I can second all that...

Although...

 

Sometimes it's players being afraid to be shot at, it seems to me. Add to that the fact, that many players have as much knowledge about naval tactics in tight surroundings as a grapefruit.

Can't say that my knowledge in that area is much better, but at least I'm not afraid to be shot at - unless when driving my DD... I try to be sneaky as hell when driving my DD...

 

For those BB drivers who are afraid to get shot at: You're right...

I've seen single shot un and torpedo kills against BBs in this game. One good hit on one of Your front or rear turrets - or a torpedo hitting you right below one - and Your ship goes down!

So You think You are better off staying at range and praying for not getting hit? Well... mostly there's usually ships on the other side with the same range at You. One of them just has to get lucky and... BOOOM!

Second there are those nasty DD's that sneak close and stick some torpedos in Your a...... rear side, while You happily gun away in binocular mode...

And then there's torpedo bombers. Nasty little buzzers... again, one lucky hit and BOOOM!

 

So there's no chance to hide from Your doom - so why don't You go close and  cuddly and make some damage?

Might be I'm a bit mad - and I don't really bother that much about getting sunk - but I think it's a terrible lot of fun to go into close combat with a BB, firing primes and secondries to all sides at everything that gets into range...

 

CA/CLs are a bit tricky... it really helps to know what the ship can do. Fat chance trying to show some muscle when you drive a (tier IV) Kuma... but in a Tier VI Cleveland you can go and give the enemy a good pounding! Or you play more tactically... I had a fight today, where our two Indepence CVs stood against an Indepence and a Saipan. I placed my Cleveland - optimised for AA - on the flightpath the opponents planes would have to take to reach our CV - if their captains were dumb enough to send them in a straight line

At the same time I was defending our Cap...

In the end, I had shot down 20 planes, our CVs survived both, I sunk a cruiser, a opponents CV and two DDs and damaged a few more ships.

 

So mostly it'S about knowing where to place Your ship to use it to the best of it's abilities!

 

But often enough I just don't give a flying eff about that, when I see the Lemming Train going off again... Free for all, every man for himself is the motto then

[2ndaryBattleTank]

It is all about incentives. If you lead the charge under the current reward system and get killed for it you receive little in terms of XP or credits, even when it can provide your team with an important opportunity. So obviously nobody wants to be that guy. What WG could do is double XP and credits for damage done while being the closest among all team member to any enemy. If another team member then moves nearer, he will start getting the bonus as long as he is closest. This will give an incentive to play more aggressively. Also, it would probably be fair to have these bonuses separated by ship class, because reasonably a BB should not be as close to the enemy as a DD.

[Silvercat18]

I could go with spotting xp.

 

Personally, though, I would like to see the accuracy of secondary guns improved.

[Xevious_Red]

You might find that it sorts itself out with the american BB, their shorter ranges means they'll need to be more agressive to get into range. I find myself spearheading in the warspite ,and on several occassions had a 3 warspite charge down the middle (either to great victory or a pitiful doom)

[Ast3lan]

I'd just leave it at this, most people play this game like it was WOT, and thats a mistake, alot of people dont know their roles, DD not laying smoke for attacks, droping torps from second line and hitting allies or CAs that engage BBs and leave the flanks open to attack, then you have BBs that hug the map edges and try to outshoot multiple oponents or just shoot salvos at impossible ranges or worst without vision on the map thus revealing themselves. You have CV's that dont support the team, dont give air coverage and simply dont comunicate with the team and waste their planes.

 

Biggest problem atm isnt who spearheads what but who play's his/her role adequately, when that comes into place its easy to see wich ships are needed to mount an adequate attack on the enemy.

[xBamBamx]

Play to ships strength and you live longer, sad when I see a CA in secondary range of a BB.  Also see what shape the team is taking and play to that shape, so many people charge in, die and blame everyone else.  Also sad when I see a CA on the outside of enemy and team BB, need to be in between to give maximum AA coverage (take your own detection range and cover into account), DD popping smoke for no reason is also annoying! no need if your not spotted, you tell the world where u are and block friendly from seeing enemy too...oops im ranting lol

[Ishiro32]

BBs can not engage first. This is role for CL/CA but at the same time CA can not be left alone.

 

A lot of the BB captains have right now mentality of I need to fight at my 3/4 max range and while sniping is valid option in some ships, this just doesn't work when whole team is doing that. BBs need to be brave. Risk a bit.

From my short experience on BBs I can tell you that. I can not aim at all. In Kongo I don't think much about any target >14 km unless it goes in straight line. But what I do? Engage! If you watch your movement and watch for torps you can easily close gap to <10 km where BB guns are very very reliable. An you know what? It works, I cap points, I can shield my ally with my HPs and Firepower when he is focused and is trying to disengage, I defend bases and I kill stuff because when enemy is 6km from you you pretty much just need to know where enemy has those points where their hull go kabooom, no aiming required. It might be just kongo as I kinda stoped playing fuso because she is more of a sniper.

I have no idea how it looks at higher tiers, but that is what I gathered right now. Offense is better for team and much more fun. You can see those explody CA that go under from one salvo from up close, you pray to god while watching torps going just few meteres from your hull. It's fun. Kabooom

 

How to make people stop sniping? How to make people read the map a bit better? I have no idea. US battleships are more about CQC and there is big hype about them, also armor fix will encourage people to stop showing their broadsides to the whole world. I think those two things might help immensely.

[AcceptYourDeath]

What WG could do is double XP and credits for damage done while being the closest among all team member to any enemy. If another team member then moves nearer, he will start getting the bonus as long as he is closest. This will give an incentive to play more aggressively. Also, it would probably be fair to have these bonuses separated by ship class, because reasonably a BB should not be as close to the enemy as a DD.

 

Sounds good, and I had a similar system in mind. The game could easily tell which ship is in the heat of the battle, by counting how many enemy ships choosen him as target. Or in addition counting hits and shells which landet in a (100m-200m ?) radius near the ship!

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Sure there is improvement in balancing and map design, it`s questionable if changes to ship statistics or a map can change the meta game very much. By the looks of it there a already certain capture points declared as lost before the game starts. It may not be the norm but there is a trend evolving. 

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Engage! If you watch your movement and watch for torps you can easily close gap to <10 km where BB guns are very very reliable. An you know what? It works, I cap points, I can shield my ally with my HPs and Firepower when he is focused and is trying to disengage, I defend bases and I kill stuff because when enemy is 6km from you you pretty much just need to know where enemy has those points where their hull go kabooom, no aiming required

 

Yes, it works.... IF (very big if here) at least a few of your team follow you, to eliminate some trash around you. The problem is, more often than not they just don't.

 

Can't say how often I've seen this situation in my BB (even in Co-Op battles):

Happily steaming ahead on a flank, three Cruisers coming at me at first... another BB and one or more Cruisers following me... then the first shots are fired. I take damage, manage to down a Cruiser, secondries put another on fire. And when looking around, the trail of ships from my own side as vanished. Disappeared backwards, trying to get at long range again. And why? Because a single enemy BB has shown itself a bit further on.

Usually the third Cruiser and BB are then enough to sink my ship. And usually the battles in which this happens are lost.

[tajj7]

Anything to encourage BBs to get into the action would be good.

[Jadefalken]

BBs can not engage first. This is role for CL/CA but at the same time CA can not be left alone.

 

A lot of the BB captains have right now mentality of I need to fight at my 3/4 max range and while sniping is valid option in some ships, this just doesn't work when whole team is doing that. BBs need to be brave. Risk a bit.

From my short experience on BBs I can tell you that. I can not aim at all. In Kongo I don't think much about any target >14 km unless it goes in straight line. But what I do? Engage! If you watch your movement and watch for torps you can easily close gap to <10 km where BB guns are very very reliable. An you know what? It works, I cap points, I can shield my ally with my HPs and Firepower when he is focused and is trying to disengage, I defend bases and I kill stuff because when enemy is 6km from you you pretty much just need to know where enemy has those points where their hull go kabooom, no aiming required. It might be just kongo as I kinda stoped playing fuso because she is more of a sniper.

I have no idea how it looks at higher tiers, but that is what I gathered right now. Offense is better for team and much more fun. You can see those explody CA that go under from one salvo from up close, you pray to god while watching torps going just few meteres from your hull. It's fun. Kabooom

 

How to make people stop sniping? How to make people read the map a bit better? I have no idea. US battleships are more about CQC and there is big hype about them, also armor fix will encourage people to stop showing their broadsides to the whole world. I think those two things might help immensely.

 

I was a very aggressive BB captain but when you are not top tier and your Top tier BB's decide to sit by carriers and snipe.. what is the point? I have yet to be on a team where MM has been generous to me.

 

I will start cataloging the MM it is presenting me with other team having more top tiers and are friends *Nightmare* flooding in through the gates from TD kemping on Tenks..

 

MM is broken even for testing purposes.

Thanks to Jingles and others promoting Purchase the Bundles on there youtube channels more Donkeys are coming from the Red Planet of Tomato (WoT's) bringing there exclusive skill from kemping busch.

 

3 days ago I had a respectable 56% win rate.. today 43%.... oh the joys... Enjoying the server reset and just staying in Co-Op.

 

Anyone else experiencing the most recent player base?

[Fominator]

Bad map design to blame. Too many long open lines of sight to spawn points and near spawn points. Not enough variation in layout, blatant favouring of one team in the map design (ocean/sun position), frankly moronic layouts for cap points (looking at your Islands of Ice) and generally a complete lack of forethought in island size.

 

It makes anyone with a bit of practice extremely cagey, and unlikely to move forward or lead the attack

 

This.

 

I also blame the experience system. Farming damage and losing the game gives you more XP and credits than playing risky, sink and win.

[Jadefalken]

Anything to encourage BBs to get into the action would be good.

 

Nothing will, you either have a keyboard dribbling moron who is still wondering why he keeps going forward when holding W down and doesn't stop or you have the players that even if you do lead the spearhead, they sit back by carriers and snipe what you sight... forgetting that when you get vaporized the ships I spotted for them hoping for some back up and the rest of the battleships support will just vanish and then smash through them like a sledge hammer on an egg.

 

Few days ago lovely, counter timeer goes down the team makes plan a with most the time (86%) would respond and (56%) of the time win or it was an exciting match where you praised the winner defeat or not. Now it is embarrassing defeats.

 

A lot of people who are now joining this game I bet have not even studied what the class of ships do or even watched a film with them in.  Asking a battle ship to advance is like from there "skills" in tanks.

[fnord_disc]

[map design]

 

I agree as well.

[Xevious_Red]

[quote name=

 

What I would say is look to yourself first, make sure you're pulling your weight in damage and kills. Prioritise targets -  a cruiser with 100hp left thats on fire thats being shot at by 3 allies isn't worth your shot, he'll be dead in seconds anyway. A DD thats just taken a BB's shots and is running away on 100hp should be a primary target - your ally can't fire again and that DD might go on to claim a cap.

 

Also, annoying team or not, don't go off somewhere on your own unless you're in a vessel that can solo (usually DD). Sailing off in your BB on your own against 7 enemy ships while shouting "noob team", dying first then typing "thx for support idiots" is far less useful than sticking with your team, even if you don't think theyre going the right way. If you can, be somewhere vaguely useful (like close enough to delay a cap if needed)

[Unintentional_submarine]

I have to support the notion that the maps are quite the driving force. The allow the super long range sniping, and I'm not free from that addiction, I mean why should I run off alone like I'm some John McClane when the rest just sits there? I do however try to edge closer in an attempt to get my BB companions with me. Works sometimes, other times I am suddenly the easiest target...

 

It isn't that super long range sniping shouldn't be possible, of course it should, but it shouldn't be the default setting. Also, while I'm not too fond of hte super long range duels, why should a BB be forced to make a choice between that and running up very narrow straits? The latter is generally a deathtrap, with DDs and CLs with torps hiding around each little island, or even better TBs coming in over the mountains. And of course those enemies should have the advantage there, only the fool BB capt'n would go there. But at times it feels like the maps are made with specific sections in mind for each class.

[Captain_Edwards]

Well imo two things would help here;

1.) Better map design (as I said), making better usage of choke points and island positioning to cut down on the number of long range battles. And increased map scale to accommodate larger calibre weapon ranges.

2.) Cut the detection ranges down. Half the time the team has barely moved but we end up detecting 3 or 4 ships well outside out view range because a single one of our DD's got within 18k or so. Controversial and possibly could break the game if done wrong.

 

And to allude more on point 2; I would also add "spotting" XP so that DD's become proper "scout" units and earn XP accordingly. Shorter detection ranges for sea and air units, meaning players have to close in to one another to spot and shoot. And those that like to snipe still can when targets are actually spotted.

 

With better maps, spotting XP, and shorter detection range the games combat engagements are at a shorter distance. Makes for more brawling action imo.

[AcceptYourDeath]

 

2.) Cut the detection ranges down. Half the time the team has barely moved but we end up detecting 3 or 4 ships well outside out view range because a single one of our DD's got within 18k or so. Controversial and possibly could break the game if done wrong.

 

 

Yes funny, I just had a game where I was barely  moving out of the starting zone and suddenly I get a full salvo taking half my health from a Myogi. The game hasn`t even started yet and I am already in engaging range with another battleship.

 

I`d like to see closer distances too, secondary armament has almost no point right now, but you would have to change ALOT of the current gameplay to make it work. Torpedo damage is too high for close combat and I`d say torpedos are too strong in general.

 

Reduced torpedo damage could also go along with better carrier gameplay, make the torpedobombers less strong but move a hell of alot quicker. With a very fast response time a carrier could support a spearhead/defender without wiping ships left and right.

 

The thing is shorter detection ranges could doom a scout/spearhead even more. Because it is in the nature of the game you can`t change situations very fast. I don`t have a lone wolf in mind going off, he should know what to expect if he runs into multiple enemys.

It`s logical the first ship that pops up on the screen will be shoot at - probably hit and damaged although he has backup. So again the question is who is the idiot presenting himself first and get into the sh§$%?

 

The spoting and detection mechanism could use some work whatever it will be! It`s a straight copy from WoT and presumably not the best solution for WoW. I have noticed the radio system, where you get the position for enemys on the other side of the map.

How about marking any ship you haven`t detected yourself with a red circle telling roughly the position without any further information. No ship type, no alignment, no distance.

With a system similar to this idea you could tell the number of ships you are about to engage, but you won`t get immediate return fire from several ships because the spoter/spearhead itself would be a red circle for a short period of time for them. Both spotter could engage each other, they are a clear target one another. If a spotter is still cruising full speed into a detected group, well.....

 

At least it should be possible to have a smoother transition for positioning etc. instead of a pop up effect straight from WoT. I am expecting better from wargaming after all this years.

.

 

 

 

 

[Coenraad]

I think gameplay will change quite a bit when 0.3.1 comes. Shorter range BB's more manouverable ships, more accurate guns (less lucky spray hits).

Besides that i like the way it works now. I play mainly cruisers and BB's ( as i suck with torps i gave up on DD's)

[nibiru_star]

I play a big [edited]battleship and I'm always the first one around the corner. I can take the most damage and with some evasive maneuvers i can fight 2 or battleships and or cruisers for a long time.

 

Only issue i have is that with my slow ship i'm there first and when i'm fight of multiple ships the support is always late.

 

I just want to fight, not wait in the back and see my team getting destroyed.

[Jadefalken]

I wouldn't worry about win rate at around 60 battles. I think at around 50 battles I managed to have a bad evening and end on 38%

At the moment, everyone is new. I know for WoT you're considered to be "learning" for the first 5k battles. Here most people dont have 500 battles. Lots don't even have 50.

 

What I would say is look to yourself first, make sure you're pulling your weight in damage and kills. Prioritise targets -  a cruiser with 100hp left thats on fire thats being shot at by 3 allies isn't worth your shot, he'll be dead in seconds anyway. A DD thats just taken a BB's shots and is running away on 100hp should be a primary target - your ally can't fire again and that DD might go on to claim a cap.

 

Also, annoying team or not, don't go off somewhere on your own unless you're in a vessel that can solo (usually DD). Sailing off in your BB on your own against 7 enemy ships while shouting "noob team", dying first then typing "thx for support idiots" is far less useful than sticking with your team, even if you don't think theyre going the right way. If you can, be somewhere vaguely useful (like close enough to delay a cap if needed)

 

Fully understand what you mean and I will not say off calling noob team alone. When  you have at least 4 ships following you. You engage reloading look at map.... team hides in corner... That was not my fault for them running away to snipe.

Hence I only play Destroyers in Randoms from now on as I do not have to depend on the window lickers as much and still pull off some good damage and kills before going down.

 

I will wait until clans and team battle options so I can actually play with people with brains.