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Sir_Sinksalot

Hydroaucustic Search Just Too Strong. DD Player

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Hi guys,

 

I mean, I'll try not to rant too much but it's Edited* bad enough for DD players to have Edited* racing up and down the map with aircraft and shooting rocket attacks at DD which renders the spotting role almost redundant and undo-able at higher tiers but also DD players don't even get the cover of smoke without being spammed by Hyrdoaucustic  too? It's too much and over powered, anything like that tbh. Players will complain about DD players "not spotting" well like I said apart from over powered aircraft spotting abilities zipping around the map already exposing DD's to enemy guns along with rocket attacks for those that actually TRY and make some spots and play positive that DD players who then has to pop a smoke has it immediately rendered useless and is not just exposed sensibly like for a brief second but the bloody thing exposes ships for like... 30 seconds or more, pretty much ending that DD's game right there since not only exposed but exposed while most likely somewhat static since in smoke just barely moving obviously which makes an easy and weak target even easier... it's too much.

 

Don't play DD's then? what a shame that would be. Why even have Hydro-search or things like that? It's pretty Edited* obvious the DD is in that small little patch of smoke is it beyond a Edited* challange for a ship to shoot blindy into smoke, sent torpedoes in there or just sail in and kill him? At least that's a better chance for the DD and can use the smoke to run straight line while unseen away from the enemy ships... but no, we can't have that now can we, instead you are exposed in the most cheap way by just using an over powered too long lasting consumable and wrecked.

 

Maybe it's just me, but there's already too many features acting against DD's without those. It would still be challenging to play without them but at least it would be way more viable and ACTUALLY attractive to risk spotting etc.

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Hydro is very short range.

Do not get enemy ships that close to you.

Stop sitting in smoke!

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Nah, we cant get rid of hydro, that would be the next coffin nail for Cruisers... if the planned module comes through (the one for TASM), then BBs can aswell slot that one and spot torps at 1,8km guaranteed. If you then remove hydro, prime target for Torps would be Cruisers, which would suck even more. Not to mention, Cruisers take close to full damage from torps anyway....

 

Btw, if you smoke up and are already in hydro range, than you fucked up way before that.

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Hydro is not a problem. 12 km radar is.

 

Beside. Neither hydro nor radar should go through mountains. And neither hydro nor radar should reveal detected vessels for any one other than the ship using it, but instead should show on the minimap. 

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15 minutes ago, xe_N_on said:

Hydro is not a problem. 12 km radar is.

I guess you've yet to experience fun and engagingTM when playing against Z-52 in a destroyer.

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As a DD main, if you take the time to learn the radar capabilities of your opponent and the Hydro capabilities you'll have very few problems as a DD player...

 

Take you about 30 minutes to work it out and if you're struggling write it down.. it becomes second nature after a while honest.

 

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Torpedo have recieved so many nerfs including to flooding that they're almost a bad joke apart from Benham, DWT and yolo plays.

One of the major reasons is hydro profliferation (DFAA useless) and another is CV reeeework and RPF disallowing flanks.

Hydro nerfs isn't going to happen though with WeeGee soon requiring us to spend cash and doubloons buying European DDs with underwater rockets.

 

If you got so close to another ship as to be hydroed, you f*cked up. 

The longest ranged hydros are the GermanBB/CA from T8+, Z-52 and Goritza with 6km range.

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The game does give you a pretty gentle intro to Hydro. Every German, British, French Cruiser has it from about Tier V upwards (Russian ones too, I think), as well as British and German destroyers. It's not like it was when Hydro was the magic button for a Konigsberg driver, surprising DDs left right and centre....

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You don’t have a great many battles, less than 500 pvp ones, hydro isn’t a bad thing tbh, Max range is 6km, most have either 5/3km though (ship detection anyway) 

 

sure, it shouldn’t see through islands etc, but I wouldn’t say hydro is in a bad place.

 

radar imo has too far range, should never be more than 7-8km. (Also shouldn’t go through islands)

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2 hours ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Hi guys,

 

I mean, I'll try not to rant too much but it's forking bad enough for DD players to have redline parasites racing up and down the map with aircraft and shooting rocket attacks at DD which renders the spotting role almost redundant and undo-able at higher tiers but also DD players don't even get the cover of smoke without being spammed by Hyrdoaucustic  too? It's too much and over powered, anything like that tbh. Players will complain about DD players "not spotting" well like I said apart from over powered aircraft spotting abilities zipping around the map already exposing DD's to enemy guns along with rocket attacks for those that actually TRY and make some spots and play positive that DD players who then has to pop a smoke has it immediately rendered useless and is not just exposed sensibly like for a brief second but the bloody thing exposes ships for like... 30 seconds or more, pretty much ending that DD's game right there since not only exposed but exposed while most likely somewhat static since in smoke just barely moving obviously which makes an easy and weak target even easier... it's too much.

 

Don't play DD's then? what a shame that would be. Why even have Hydro-search or things like that? It's pretty forking obvious the DD is in that small little patch of smoke is it beyond a forking challange for a ship to shoot blindy into smoke, sent torpedoes in there or just sail in and kill him? At least that's a better chance for the DD and can use the smoke to run straight line while unseen away from the enemy ships... but no, we can't have that now can we, instead you are exposed in the most cheap way by just using an over powered too long lasting consumable and wrecked.

 

Maybe it's just me, but there's already too many features acting against DD's without those. It would still be challenging to play without them but at least it would be way more viable and ACTUALLY attractive to risk spotting etc.

or just dont get into hydro range att all ??? jesus some people.............

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Don't stay in yr smoke when enemies rush you, use it as screen to get away leaving a wall of torps behind

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1 hour ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Why even have Hydro-search or things like that?

For a start, it's a nice nod towards history (asdic and all that sort of stuff e.g. the sonar 'dome' from the real Haida is upside down on the quay beside her).

 

In the game, hydro isn't that hard to deal with for DDs - with practice, and a bit of learning. It also helps to play a few hydro ships to understand what they can and can't do (the aforementioned Haida's hydro is a very different proposition that found on, say, Hipper); if you dig DDs already, give the KM DDs a lash - their combination of smoke and hydro can make them very formidable (that's part of the reason why the premium T-61 is so good).

 

I'd suggest trying to remember the rough hydro ranges of the things you're facing (very short for RN 'defensive' hydro, medium for most cruisers, and longer for KM cruisers etc.), and avoid going into those ranges without prior thought as much as possible. Also be mindful of some of the more notable exceptions to the standard 'rules' e.g. Loyang gets 5.5 km hydro!

 

To be honest, if you haven't misplayed (or your opponent hasn't done something cunning), direct detection by hydro shouldn't happen that frequently; radar is by far the greater threat (not to mention planes). The main thing you have to play around vis-a-vis hydro is that it warns your opponents about torps that you fire, requiring you to apply a bit more cunning to get hits.

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Hydro has a fairly limited range and usually requires the cruiser to take risks to get close enough to detect DDs with it. DDs have far worse things to deal with, even with more players using hydro now with DAAF being kinda pointless.

 

Sure, cruisers could certainly live without hydro since they have far bigger problems with BB AP than torpedoes. And using it offensively is usually very risky. But I think it's a fair bit down on the list of things to do to make things easier for DDs.

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17 minutes ago, lossi_2018 said:

Don't stay in yr smoke when enemies rush you, use it as screen to get away leaving a wall of torps behind

This. With one or two notable exceptions, any DD sitting in smoke deserves to get bagged by something...

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Hydro is ok, helps to dodge torps, hardly counter DDs, unless you sit in smoke with cruisers charging your position. Radar is much more of a problem for DD players imo. Still radar+hydro is not even close to broken smoke mechanic. Idea of sitting in middle of smoke screen and be able to see target and shoot at the target and still be invisible........ lack of logic in this game is mind bending...

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2 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Hydro is very short range.

Do not get enemy ships that close to you.

Stop sitting in smoke!

Exactly.

 

There is nothing sadder (if they are on your team) to see a DD sit in smoke and stay there as enemy ships get closer and closer.   Because you're smoked up there is a good chance that no-one can see the ships getting closer to you so you won't get any support.

 

I try and use smoke for my team mates but also deploy it when I'm being chased down by multiple ships.

 

If you're having problems with hydro I dread to see how you handle multiple radars on the enemy team.  WG are making it easier by standardizing the range and duration of radars.

 

CVs are a pain for a DD and a CV player can make your game a misery - at best you have to return to the AA bubble supplied by your own allies.

 

I'm not sure what is going to happen when subs get introduced to the game as I fear the DD will be expected to hunt those down as well.

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8 minutes ago, _Conan_Librarian_ said:

 Idea of sitting in middle of smoke screen and be able to see target and shoot at the target and still be invisible........ lack of logic in this game is mind bending...

I think if you are in smoke the only way you will spot the approaching ships are if someone else on the team can spot them (and your smoke screen has not prevented that from happening), they are firing and maybe on fire.

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Soo, an idea that would nerf hydro slightly - if hydro is running by an enemy from within 10km you hear a slight periodic ping. You don't know who's using it or where it comes from, just that it's active somewhere within 10km.

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Hydro and Radar obviously, translates into the same "press button, there's enemy ship" thing. My idea would be to reduce their effects to brief periodical "flashes" of the enemy ship, not a edited* perma-spot the way it is now. Just a brief half a second "there he is" moment every several seconds. Don't get too close? Don't sit in smoke? Well what would I do with the smoke? Inhale it and get high? Good idea, would be much more effective and would at least be fun. Sure, always room for improvement but that idiotic "don't get that close" etc in other words camp at the back like a typical edited* that does that all battle, the safest and surest way to lose or at least deserve to lose. You guys are making out like these maps offer room to get around without aircraft spotting you. Sure, if there's just one carrier and he just happens to be focusing the other side but other than that as you guys know the other option is to use islands and try to get to more advanced positions and avoid aircraft that way. This can lead to getting a little too close for comfort at times and it's not like a cruisers isn't slower than a DD, in most cases they are faster.

 

What positives does hydro and radar bring to the game anyway? You don't have a DD on your team to counter and can't figure out where ships are? For God sake the Edited* spawn literally shows you where all the enemy ships are via this mirror spawn we have whereby the ship configuration on your team before battle starts is the same for the enemy team. "Well if there's a ship behind a mountain we can spot him or in smoke" ya exactly, bs, easy mode, go fokking look for yourself and risk it not "press button, there he is" mode. It's not good for gameplay on the back of idiotic aircraft spotting range basically edited* out of the map with aircraft too. Most every battle with carriers its the same crap of aircraft racing down the map exposing everyone's position and just perma-spotting and hitting DD's that are unlucky enough to be on that flank and this game isn't fast enough in speed since it's ships obviously to simply relocate to the other flank assuming there is a 4 minute window to actually get away without telegraphing your next move to the ever spotting eye of carrier boy at the back of the map. I just don't think these other spotting options are necessary or at least certainly not to the level of strength they currently are.

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3 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Don't sit in smoke? Well what would I do with the smoke? Inhale it and get high?

Use it to flee or use it when nobody can catch you offguard. For that you need to be aware what is happening around you. If that is not the case, get away!

 

And staying 6100m from the nearest ship is not camping... :Smile_smile:

 

And yes, other people do just fine. Maybe you should learn from them :Smile_great:

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Best hydro in the game has 6km range. If you have awareness and positioning they can't push you that close without you seeing it first.

 

The new module they're proposing that bypasses torpedo stealth, though, now that's something to complain about. Hydro's fine.

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I have never found hydro to be too much of a problem for my survival, sure it's annoying when your trying to torp someone and he gets early warning.

 

However the only real danger from hydro is if I'm being rushed by a German (or to a lesser extent) British DD, from BBs and cruisers it's quite easy to lay smoke to avoid being spotted and relocate fast, ideally whilst torping your old smoke while you get out of there. 

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1 Greatest problem for DD:s in my opinion are Carriers with rocket attacks and focus fire from spotting however not all games have a carrier.

2 Radars are also a big problem but with a bit of map awareness and knowledge on the radar ranges of different ships this can be worked around

3 Hydros, the limited range kind of cancels out most of the issues but yes the long duration is a problem if you get caught too close but then again what ships have Hydro and what is the range ?  Again map awareness solves this

 

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1 hour ago, Captain_Newman said:

The new module they're proposing that bypasses torpedo stealth, though, now that's something to complain about. Hydro's fine.

I dont see any reason to use that to be honest.

A BB that takes that thing over the Concealment Module just makes him more vulnerable to all sources of damage since you get spotted wayyyy earlier, that includes Torpedoes.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

What positives does hydro and radar bring to the game anyway?

They add variety; reduce variety too much and it risks tedium. Far fewer people would play a game that involved, say, only BBs lobbing shells at each other from miles away.

 

If you're relying on hydro to spot (or getting killed regularly by it), it's a LTP issue, plain and simple - see other comments for notes on how. Radar is harder to evade (lots of DD players hate it), but not impossible - again, it's about acquiring the necessary skills.

 

1 hour ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Don't get too close? Don't sit in smoke? Well what would I do with the smoke? Inhale it and get high?

Use it properly, and with some thought towards the meta:

  • If you sit in smoke, you are not moving, and not spotting; this makes you largely useless if someone else isn't spotting for you, and wildly vulnerable to torps into your smoke.
  • As a DD you are hard to spot, your allies mostly aren't; your smoke is often not about hiding yourself, it's about hiding your allies - put a screen between the enemy and your allies, and you can carry on spotting while they keep shooting (or repair if they're damaged).
  • The other useful thing you can do with smoke is break visual contact; this is especially pertinent with RN DDs (lots of charges, short duration).

At lower tiers, you can sometimes get away with smoke camping in a DD, but as you advance up the tiers the game gets more complex/interesting and smoke camping is extremely ill-advised.

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