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Kii Kobayashi

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Quick question to Kii owners.

 

In today patch Kobayashi camo for Yamato (and bunch of other camos for different ships) can be bought directly via the ship's 'external' menu. 

 

Can anyone check if Kobayashi camo is available for Kii as well?

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Can't check as I already have it sadly.

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2 minutes ago, Cyanide_NL said:

Yeah it's there :)

 For 7000 doublons?

 

Must say as IJN collector I will be now tempted for 40 days...

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5 hours ago, Cyanide_NL said:

Yeah for 7k.

 

Me too, tbh, I like Kii, nice ship with good guns.

good guns? Since when :D

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I bought it for both Roma and KII last week. But that was before the latest patch.

 

It can be bought from the ships camo section for 7k, can't see that changing in the last patch. If you are thinking of getting it, I would because it does turn the ship into a T9/T10 premium earner.

 

I seem to do better with it on the Roma because it has better guns with AP to rack up damage. And yep, I don't really rate the guns that much either on the KII, even if it does have loads of them.

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Is Kii even good now that CV and AA rework hit us? Kii used to shred planes with 7.2km AA range.

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3 hours ago, Reckie said:

Is Kii even good now that CV and AA rework hit us? Kii used to shred planes with 7.2km AA range.

It still has the best T8 BB AA with access to def AA by my experience, but of course there is not a single ship that is safe from carrier attacks. We could say, its AA gimmick is less useful than before. Besides the AA, it is still a good ship with good guns, speed, 10km torps and has very punishable broadsides.

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6 hours ago, L8viathan said:

It still has the best T8 BB AA with access to def AA

DefAA? In Kii? Can you confirm?

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41 minutes ago, Vbeest said:

DefAA? In Kii? Can you confirm?

Nope, can't confirm the DefAA cuz i misremembered and confused it with Fighter. It has fighter, no DefAA. Thanks for asking.

 

 

kii1.JPG

 

 

And yes the camo costs 7K dobloons, it looks like in below ss:

 

 

kii2.jpg

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7 hours ago, L8viathan said:

It still has the best T8 BB AA with access to def AA by my experience, but of course there is not a single ship that is safe from carrier attacks. We could say, its AA gimmick is less useful than before. Besides the AA, it is still a good ship with good guns, speed, 10km torps and has very punishable broadsides.

Yes, that was my point, the AA in the game changed a lot so ships that was pretty much sold as good AA ships have lost quite a bit of their "potential". Its a bit like buying a permanent camo for the Alsace and Henri pre nerf, its not the same ship after (perhaps a bad comparison since its a standard tech tree vs premium ship but for bigger changes I wish WG would make it possible to refund permanent camos)

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9 hours ago, Reckie said:

Yes, that was my point, the AA in the game changed a lot so ships that was pretty much sold as good AA ships have lost quite a bit of their "potential". Its a bit like buying a permanent camo for the Alsace and Henri pre nerf, its not the same ship after (perhaps a bad comparison since its a standard tech tree vs premium ship but for bigger changes I wish WG would make it possible to refund permanent camos)

Yes, there is definitely no effective AA ship left after the rework. I sunk a full hp Smolensk with Lexington in a couple of salvos. Carriers can reach all ships including, Kii, Akizuki, Kidd, Mino, Smolensk, Atlanta, Des Moines and other US cruisers, any BB with no problem. These AA ships will shoot down a couple of more planes than the weak AA ships, and will still get sunk by the carrier, that's about it. 

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8 hours ago, L8viathan said:

Nope, can't confirm the DefAA cuz i misremembered and confused it with Fighter. It has fighter, no DefAA. Thanks for asking.

No problem.

 

It seems Kii was once equal in AA to US BBs. By comparing the present stats (dpm), Kii is distinctly inferior to Massachussets (also premium) and FAR inferior to North Carolina.

 

So it has been effectively nerfed relatively to other ships... Using fighter is hard choice, given Kii's short main guns range.

 

It is the major issue, that Kii basically lacks any solid selling point, other than torpedos ( mostly newbie basher). Kii is a very unpopular premium in game. It could use some love. For example, it could get long distance secondaries, which would make it unique in IJN tree.

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1 hour ago, Vbeest said:

No problem.

 

It seems Kii was once equal in AA to US BBs. By comparing the present stats (dpm), Kii is distinctly inferior to Massachussets (also premium) and FAR inferior to North Carolina.

 

So it has been effectively nerfed relatively to other ships... Using fighter is hard choice, given Kii's short main guns range.

 

It is the major issue, that Kii basically lacks any solid selling point, other than torpedos ( mostly newbie basher). Kii is a very unpopular premium in game. It could use some love. For example, it could get long distance secondaries, which would make it unique in IJN tree.

Actually, from hands on experience Kii is not weaker than any other tier 8 BB in terms of AA. The other BBs have short range AA that Kii doesn't have but Kii doesn't need it as it shreds, or used to shred, lolz, in medium to long range.  In other words, if  i was asked to pick a BB today from all tier 8 ships but only for AA,  and only one i have to choose, i would still  prefer Kii to others, but that's me. You can also check Kii AA impressions from littlewhitemouse review below.

 

Knowing that Kii has lower sigma value than Amagi, 1.7 that is, i usually don't use the spotter plane because 19.4KM is far enough range for effective shooting. Guns don't behave and are not precise like Yamato guns when you shoot  from very long range but in contrary, they hit like a shotgun from close ranges. Besides that, in order to use the ship's best and perhaps only gimmick, 10Km 62knots torpedoes, you need a close range battle in it.

 

You are right, it really does lack a selling point. I mean, torpedoes alone is not enough of a gimmick. Because in order to use them u need to  brawl. Well, it has very weak broad side like Lenin, all other Soviet BBs, Yamato, Roma, etc. Once you show broad side , and if the enemy player knows how to shoot, you either lose 2/3 of your HP or get dev striked. Hence, torp use is very situational and effective in cases like yoloing.  One may have a great game in it but it doesn't make it a better ship than its counterparts. Although it depends on the taste of each player, i would not recommend the current state of  Kii to players whilere there are more fun and effective BBs like, Alabama, Massa, Lenin, Tirpitz, Amagi. They buffed its torps to 10km range but it's not enough.

 

Yes, it could use long range secondaries, or Amagi like sigma which wouldn't make him another Amagi because it still has weaker armor scheme,  or shorter reload time which is 30sec currently, or better than 45 seconds 180 deg. turret turning circle, or better than 25% torpedo protection belt, or better concealment. I agree, it could use and needs a BIG love from WG in order to sell. 

 

A Kobayashi camo won't do the trick.

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/137794-premium-ship-review-kii/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

kiiAA.JPG

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2 hours ago, L8viathan said:

Actually, from hands on experience Kii is not weaker than any other tier 8 BB in terms of AA. The other BBs have short range AA that Kii doesn't have but Kii doesn't need it as it shreds, or used to shred, lolz, in medium to long range.  In other words, if  i was asked to pick a BB today from all tier 8 ships but only for AA,  and only one i have to choose, i would still  prefer Kii to others, but that's me. You can also check Kii AA impressions from littlewhitemouse review below.

 

kiiAA.JPG

 

This plot shows that Kii has been strongly nerfed in AA.

 

Using https://wowsft.com/ship we can compare the present AA aura of T8 BBs (here, let's leave explosions as a complex matter, recently described in detail by Elrazer on this forum - BUT the explosions while similar, are still better for North Carolina and other US T8 BBs. So considering the explosions would only be worse for Kii):

 

                                               Long             Med           Near

Kii                                            193               294             112

North Carolina                       172               389             308

IOWA                                       175               483             375

 

NC was inferior to Kii in long+med, now wins by a wide margin...

 

Comparison with Iowa (T9 of a nation known for good AA) is meaningful, as Kii was almost exactly the same in long+med before the rework.

 

                                      Long+med (before)                   Long+med (now)

Kii                                                446                                         487      

North Carolina                           389                                        561    

Iowa                                            453                                         658   

 

So Kii went from a BB equal in AA strength to a T9 US BB, to a BB inferior to T8 US BBs...

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25 minutes ago, Vbeest said:

 

This plot shows that Kii has been strongly nerfed in AA.

 

Using https://wowsft.com/ship we can compare the present AA aura of T8 BBs (here, let's leave explosions as a complex matter, recently described in detail by Elrazer on this forum - BUT still explosions while similar, are still better for North Carolina and other US T8 BBs):

 

                                               Long             Med           Near

Kii                                            193               294             112

North Carolina                       172               389             308

 

NC wins by a wide margin...

 

Not in long range. NC AA gets stronger as planes are closer. Kii AA works line Minatour, start shredding from long distance to medium and has minimal effect in close range. And not everything works like what's shown in the stats. Lab conditions don't apply to real life as u know, same in the game. 

 

Besides, all these flaks numbers, DPS, etc are meaningless to even look at or discuss after rework. The AA of the ships are good to shoot down a couple of planes and take tons of damage in return. I mean what are we trying to prove here, what is the point? Kii has better AA, or no US BBs have better AA.  Okay, whatever. What is the result? Does any of them have good enough AA to shoot lots of enemy planes and prevent attacks? No. Then, why care about AA? I wrote in previous posts i would still take Kii if AA was the only option but also wrote AA has no meaning after the rework. 

 

Hence, it is better to look at other strength of the ships before buying them in current meta. 

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3 hours ago, L8viathan said:

Not in long range. NC AA gets stronger as planes are closer. Kii AA works line Minatour, start shredding from long distance to medium and has minimal effect in close range. And not everything works like what's shown in the stats. Lab conditions don't apply to real life as u know, same in the game. 

Interesting what you say. The only mechanism I can think of is high muzzle velocity of Japanese 100 mm guns. It would make it more easy to catch the planes in flak clouds. But isn't the time of flak shell flight fixed (equal for all ships regardless of guns) ? Or does it use the ballistics?

 

Or do you have some other ideas? I agree this is mostly academic.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Vbeest said:

Interesting what you say. The only mechanism I can think of is high muzzle velocity of Japanese 100 mm guns. It would make it more easy to catch the planes in flak clouds. But isn't the time of fligh fixed? Or does it use the ballistics?

It may be the muzzle velocity as you pointed since, as an example, Massa long range AA guns are 10 x 2 127mm  with 792.0 m/s vs. Kii long range AA guns 8 x 2 100mm with 1000.0 m/s.

 

But it may be also due to amount of flaks as Kii produces 10 vs. Massa's 8. And when you think flak bursts appear each 2 seconds, 10 vs 8 flaks, 2 flaks difference every 2 seconds can be huge.

Kii also has more continuous damage per second.

 

 

 

WikiWG also confirms in their page Kii has the best long range AA;

 

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Kii

 

Pros:
Incredible broadside firepower, with ten 410mm guns on 5 turrets that can do up to 12,600 damage per shell.
Unlike Amagi, Kii can launch 3 torpedoes per side for close range engagements.
Best long-range anti-aircraft suite of all Tier VIII battleships.
Has both the strong AP and HE shells that Amagi has.

Cons:
Highest surface detectability range of all Tier VIII battleships.
Lacks the powerful secondary armament and torpedo defense system of sister ship Amagi.
Shorter main battery range than most of her Tier VIII counterparts.
Sigma value of 1.7 is worse than Amagi.
Thin citadel plating means that she will be citadelled with ease from many battleships she will face.
Less torpedo protection than Amagi

kiilong.jpg

massalong.jpg

 

 

ADDITION: Just checked NC, it has exact same long range characteristics with Massa AA.

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Check if 10 explosions in your Kii isn't because of a module?

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4 hours ago, Vbeest said:

Check if 10 explosions in your Kii isn't because of a module?

Yep, it is. Then, how come it has best long range AA. Even if leave my hands on experience out of this, is WG lying on their official page, too? Don't think so. Or is it really the muzzle velocity?

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Alright, as someone who actually has an idea of AA mechanics, most of your arguments are just nonsense.

 

Kii has slightly worse AA than USN BBs overall. The number of flak explosions is identical on both. Flak spawns in fixed intervals, regardless of what ship it is. shell velocity matters not, they are created in the path of the planes and any capable CV will just dodge them anyway. Against stupid though, it's useful. Not that you need 8 explosions, Amagi with 2 can kill squads that are too stupid to dodge.

 

Now, let's go to DPS values. DPS is applied in fixed intervals too, reducing plane hp. As long as the planes are in range. Kii has 21 more long range dps than NC, so it does 21 more damage... or would do if accuracy wouldn't decrease that. Also skills like aircraft armour decrease damage aircraft take and just being in attack mode does too. Aircraft that can just start attack runs from before entering AA range, like GZ torp bombers will basically take maybe 10 more dps from Kii than from NC. 10 more dps translates into 1 more plane shot down after 180 seconds... or 3 minutes. guess how often a CV is going to circle their planes above you for 3 minutes. The other values are more significant, but still not really good.

 

More importantly, Kii takes more damage from planes, because Lexington HVARs and implacable bombs pen it, while they struggle on USN BBs and Kii has crap torp belt, while Massa has pretty solid one.

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So, as someone who has an idea of AA mechanics and who doesn't make nonsense arguments like us, do you agree with WG advertising Kii by having the best long range AA in all T8 BBs  or not?

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On 1/19/2020 at 7:38 AM, L8viathan said:

Knowing that Kii has lower sigma value than Amagi, 1.7 that is, i usually don't use the spotter plane because 19.4KM is far enough range for effective shooting.

The bullets are quite floaty on the KII with distance shots I find compared to other BB's I play, you need give a lot of lead and seems to take ages for them to land from a high arc. So I defo would not extend the gun range on KII with planes. I would use attack planes to boost the AA instead

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