Co-op battles [Short duration]

[Afghanicus]

Well, another update with no change, huh?

 

Look, I know co-ops are not a priority, I know WG doesn't care about them but when a WG staff member like @Sub_Octavian publicly promises on the stream that they will look into it, "discuss it over the next meeting" and let us know about the outcome.. then you would expect some feedback in return, don't you?

 

Then when you tag him 10 times after that and he NEVER replies you start to have those initial feelings when he messed up the whole PR thing on Reddit, don't you?

 

Can we have some feedback from the developers? Was this discussed at all or it was just empty Russian words from WG? If it wasn't, do they plan to? If it was, what was the outcome? How easy/hard it is to change/remove the points in co-op battles? By either removing the points altogether and winning only by sinking the whole enemy team. Or giving the bots more points so they don't end up at 0 in the first 3-4 minutes of the battle and ending it without the possibility to do anything, leaving many ships alive on the enemy team.

 

In the meantime... I have battles of less than 4 minutes regularly. That's NOT good.

 

 

And since @Sub_Octavian has been ignoring me for the last 20 days or so... can any other WG staff members check this for me and give us some feedback?

 

@MrConway @Crysantos @Tanatoy @YabbaCoe @Sehales

 

Thanks.

[Jessa_Doom]

1 hour ago, Palubarac said:

Well, another update with no change, huh?

 

Look, I know co-ops are not a priority, I know WG doesn't care about them but when a WG staff member like @Sub_Octavian publicly promises on the stream that they will look into it, "discuss it over the next meeting" and let us know about the outcome.. then you would expect some feedback in return, don't you?

 

Then when you tag him 10 times after that and he NEVER replies you start to have those initial feelings when he messed up the whole PR thing on Reddit, don't you?

 

Can we have some feedback from the developers? Was this discussed at all or it was just empty Russian words from WG? If it wasn't, do they plan to? If it was, what was the outcome? How easy/hard it is to change/remove the points in co-op battles? By either removing the points altogether and winning only by sinking the whole enemy team. Or giving the bots more points so they don't end up at 0 in the first 3-4 minutes of the battle and ending it without the possibility to do anything, leaving many ships alive on the enemy team.

 

In the meantime... I have battles of less than 4 minutes regularly. That's NOT good.

 

 

And since @Sub_Octavian has been ignoring me for the last 20 days or so... can any other WG staff members check this for me and give us some feedback?

 

@MrConway @Crysantos @Tanatoy @YabbaCoe @Sehales

 

Thanks.

Yep agree these C0-ops are way to short, and in some BB's i've hardly got off the spawn start line or even fired a shot and it all over with still over half the enemy team in play. 

 

Considering most of the time there are very few players and extra long load times Co-op is the only playable battle to play, WG sort it out. 

[sotiris_warrior]

i dont know how they are thinking and to be honest i dont wanna know!

[MrConway]

17 hours ago, Palubarac said:

Well, another update with no change, huh?

 

Look, I know co-ops are not a priority, I know WG doesn't care about them but when a WG staff member like @Sub_Octavian publicly promises on the stream that they will look into it, "discuss it over the next meeting" and let us know about the outcome.. then you would expect some feedback in return, don't you?

 

Then when you tag him 10 times after that and he NEVER replies you start to have those initial feelings when he messed up the whole PR thing on Reddit, don't you?

 

Can we have some feedback from the developers? Was this discussed at all or it was just empty Russian words from WG? If it wasn't, do they plan to? If it was, what was the outcome? How easy/hard it is to change/remove the points in co-op battles? By either removing the points altogether and winning only by sinking the whole enemy team. Or giving the bots more points so they don't end up at 0 in the first 3-4 minutes of the battle and ending it without the possibility to do anything, leaving many ships alive on the enemy team.

 

In the meantime... I have battles of less than 4 minutes regularly. That's NOT good.

 

 

And since @Sub_Octavian has been ignoring me for the last 20 days or so... can any other WG staff members check this for me and give us some feedback?

 

@MrConway @Crysantos @Tanatoy @YabbaCoe @Sehales

 

Thanks.

 

We checked and due to various directives and snowflakes the average duration of coop battles was indeed impacted and significantly lower recently.

 

Now that this influx is gone the values are normalizing and you should see your coop battles taking longer again (on average).

 

This will of course not mean short battles cannot happen, but they should be much less frequent. We'll keep an eye on it and see how it evolves.

[ColonelPete]

10 minutes ago, MrConway said:

 

We checked and due to various directives and snowflakes the average duration of coop battles was indeed impacted and significantly lower recently.

 

Now that this influx is gone the values are normalizing and you should see your coop battles taking longer again (on average).

 

This will of course not mean short battles cannot happen, but they should be much less frequent. We'll keep an eye on it and see how it evolves.

The problem is that ship numbers increased and the bot side tends to lose a lot more ships than the human side and therefore reach 0 points before all ships are sunk.

 

I suggest to give the bot side 50 or 100 more points. They lose most of the time anyway and this way you have a better chance to sink all of them before the match ends. 

[Afghanicus]

3 hours ago, MrConway said:

 

We checked and due to various directives and snowflakes the average duration of coop battles was indeed impacted and significantly lower recently.

 

Now that this influx is gone the values are normalizing and you should see your coop battles taking longer again (on average).

 

This will of course not mean short battles cannot happen, but they should be much less frequent. We'll keep an eye on it and see how it evolves.

I'm sorry but seems like you didn't even read my post, haven't followed all prior threads about it and completely ignored the Sub_Octavian's promise I mentioned.

 

I'm not talking about how players play co-op battles, I'm talking about the system in force in those battles.

 

Alright, let me elaborate (shortly) once again, hoping you will read the message thoroughly this time (no offense please, just put yourself in my position for a moment).

 

In WOWs, you can win a battle by fulfilling various conditions, right? Let's focus on one - points (by capping or sinking enemy ships).

 

You win by reaching 1000 points, no matter how many ships are left in each team. That's completely fine.

 

However, you also win if the enemy team reaches 0 points. I'm calling it (heard it from others) "The Mercy Rule" because I guess it was implemented so that one team doesn't completely humiliate the other (when in Random/Ranked battles) by sinking all the team and not losing any ships (at least in theory, in practice humiliation happens more often than you'd think).

 

Now, do we need to so-called "mercy rule" when playing co-op battles? Do we care about bots being humiliated? I didn't think so.  That's not ok and should be changed.

 

As discussed previously, there are various ways to fix this, from my non-developer perspective. 

 

1. Removing the points mechanics in co-op battles completely and having the one and only condition for winning - sinking all ships from the enemy team

2. Increasing the starting amount of points for the bots team thus making it much more difficult (or impossible) to reach 0 points during the battle

3. Playing with other details like reducing (or removing) the deduction of points when a bot team loses a ship

4. Any other fix that developers know it would be the easiest and the least time consuming to implement.

 

I hope it's clear now and you can look into it, especially with @Sub_Octavian.

 

Mentioning snowflakes and directives doesn't make any sense IMHO, especially because I just posted this screenshot which is from yesterday, when all snowflakes and insane PR directives are in the past. It's also worth mentioning that this problem did not appear with the snowflakes so they have absolutely nothing to do with it. This is an issue that has been around (and complained in the forums) for a long time.

 

Last change to co-op battles was adding one ship per team (9 vs 9 instead of the 8 vs 8). This change affected the mentioned problem in a negative way, making the battles last even shorter. I hope I don't have to explain why, I guess it's pretty obvious. 

 

Please note that switching back to 8 vs 8 wouldn't solve the issue I'm talking about here, it would just make it slightly better like it was before 9 vs 9 was introduced. Because after 9 vs 9 was introduced in co-op battles, they are shorter than ever and players are enjoying them less than ever. Especially battleships who usually can't even get to more than a ship or two during the battle.

 

Alright, that's all. I hope I explained as thorough as I can but if something is still unclear, let me know and I'll follow-up on it.

[DirtyHeddy]

21 minutes ago, MrConway said:

We checked and due to various directives and snowflakes the average duration of coop battles was indeed impacted and significantly lower recently.

How could that be ? If a team kills the bots to fast so that they get below 0 points while still having 3 ships still pretty alive ends the game. How is that related to directives and snowflakes ?

So there should be a more detailed and comprehensible explanation. I would appreciate that.

 

Quote

Now that this influx is gone the values are normalizing and you should see your coop battles taking longer again (on average).

 

This will of course not mean short battles cannot happen, but they should be much less frequent. We'll keep an eye on it and see how it evolves.

I agree that this assumed influx is gone now - maybe we find out the correct one later ...

 

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

56 minutes ago, MrConway said:

 

We checked and due to various directives and snowflakes the average duration of coop battles was indeed impacted and significantly lower recently.

 

Now that this influx is gone the values are normalizing and you should see your coop battles taking longer again (on average).

 

This will of course not mean short battles cannot happen, but they should be much less frequent. We'll keep an eye on it and see how it evolves.

 

I love the fact that CoOp battles last 4-5 minutes... that suits my needs 100% perfectly...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

P.S.

My daily routine is doing 12 CoOp battles for Daily Missions and grinding of all lines I neglected before... per game I get 1000-1500 XP during that 4-5 minuts and it works beautifuly... only after that I play PvP (i.e. Randoms)!

[Mrs_Ragdoll]

The bots are all way too much kamikaze as well, it seems like when you get within a certain distance it triggers a "I must ram the enemy" command. I see them kamikaze ram players or other bots all the time. I only play Co-op for the snowflakes event, because the matches are so short, but this is not how the game mode should be. There are plenty of players playing only Co-op. It's not fun when you can only shoot 3x as a BB and then the match is already over, having to wait more than a minute for a new match to only shoot a few times again, lol. Really in some matches I saw 4 or 5 bots ram other players or bots in my team, it really was a ramming fest 

[Afghanicus]

2 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

I love the fact that CoOp battles last 4-5 minutes... that suits my needs 100% perfectly...

Leo "Apollo11"

 

P.S.

My daily routine is doing 12 CoOp battles for Daily Missions and grinding of all lines I neglected before... per game I get 1000-1500 XP during that 4-5 minuts and it works beautifuly... only after that I play PvP (i.e. Randoms)!

Well, maybe we could be a bit less selfish and think about issues in a broader sense, not just from one's personal perspective and experience.

 

But even if we're focusing on you... answer this please : Would you rather have...

 

1. A co-op battle lasting less than 4 minutes where you did less than 40k DMG (often 20-30k) and finished the battle by the enemy team reaching 0 points, while 3-4 ships remained alive (usually not even scratched)

 

OR

 

2. A co-op battle lasting few minutes longer where you did at least twice the DMG (often even more) and all enemy ships were sunk

 

?

[DirtyHeddy]

2 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

I love the fact that CoOp battles last 4-5 minutes... that suits my needs 100% perfectly...

If You are grinding something You will indeed appreciate short rounds. If looking for entertainment and fun it is less appealing.

 

 

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

3 minutes ago, Palubarac said:

Well, maybe we could be a bit less selfish and think about issues in a broader sense, not just from one's personal perspective and experience.

 

But even if we're focusing on you... answer this please : Would you rather have...

 

1. A co-op battle lasting less than 4 minutes where you did less than 40k DMG (often 20-30k) and finished the battle by the enemy team reaching 0 points, while 3-4 ships remained alive (usually not even scratched)

 

OR

 

2. A co-op battle lasting few minutes longer where you did at least twice the DMG (often even more) and all enemy ships were sunk

 

?

 

I think that you are missing the point here... I almost don't recall CoOp battle I was in where the game ended (in 4-5 minute span) where there were alive enemy BOTs at the end...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Afghanicus]

2 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

 

I think that you are missing the point here... I almost don't recall CoOp battle I was in where the game ended (in 4-5 minute span) where there were alive enemy BOTs at the end...

 

Leo "Apollo11"

You didn't answer my question.

 

Here is one more..

 

How often do you play co-op battles? 

 

Seems like not too often or almost not at all. If that's the case, your replies and opinions have no weight at all.

 

Have you checked all the threads that were active in the last few months? Especially from 0.8.10 patch (mid-November) when 9 vs 9 co-op battles were introduced?

 

Here's one post on that original thread, to remind you and the rest about it...

 

Here is the screenshot for the ones too lazy to open the post and read it...

 

And a short explanation for the ones not understanding the issue, even with the screenshot:

 

There are 4 enemy ships remaining. The enemy team has 55 points. Georgia was sunk few seconds later, before I even approach her. You lose 60 points when your BB get sunk so once the Georgia was sent to the bottom, it was over. The battle ended not even reaching the 4 minute mark with 3 ships on the enemy team remaining alive, 2 of which with full HP.

 

This happens more often than not and everyone who plays co-op battles regularly know this.

 

I hope it's clear and understandable now. But again - if it needs to be elaborated with even more details, just let me know.

 

[DirtyHeddy]

5 hours ago, Palubarac said:

As discussed previously, there are various ways to fix this, from my non-developer perspective. 

 

1. Removing the points mechanics in co-op battles completely and having the one and only condition for winning - sinking all ships from the enemy team

2. Increasing the starting amount of points for the bots team thus making it much more difficult (or impossible) to reach 0 points during the battle

3. Playing with other details like reducing (or removing) the deduction of points when a bot team loses a ship

4. Any other fix that developers know it would be the easiest and the least time consuming to implement.

 

I hope it's clear now and you can look into it, especially with @Sub_Octavian.

I have heard of a fifth option (which from time to time is mentioned in this forum):

Give the bots a better AI. Make them a little more reasonable, tricky, unpredictable. Don't let them Yolo with flank speed towards possible targets, using all consumables on detection ...

 

But guess what will never happen ...

[Afghanicus]

4 hours ago, DirtyHeddy said:

I have heard of a fifth option (which from time to time is mentioned in this forum):

Give the bots a better AI. Make them a little more reasonable, tricky, unpredictable. Don't let them Yolo with flank speed towards possible targets, using all consumables on detection ...

 

But guess what will never happen ...

Yes, I know this has been proposed as well but even as a complete noob when it comes to coding and developing I know that's probably the hardest and most time-consuming way to fix the issue.

 

That's why I've been always proposing much easier ways to deal with this issue but a 4th option can always be the best - developers choosing what's the easiest.

 

But for developers to start fixing it, WG staff (usually CMs) have to pass the message to their superiors and this needs to be discussed on one of the meeting where much more important stuff is being discussed (think: loot boxes).

 

@Sub_Octavian is the only one who promised to check this and discuss it but seems like he is ignoring the forums completely and the promise he gave had no weight at all which is quite disappointing (not to mention unprofessional).

 

That's why I tagged the other WG staff that I know is active on the forums even though the one response I got so far was far below expected.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

20 hours ago, Palubarac said:

You didn't answer my question.

 

Here is one more..

 

How often do you play co-op battles? 

 

Seems like not too often or almost not at all. If that's the case, your replies and opinions have no weight at all.

 

Have you checked all the threads that were active in the last few months? Especially from 0.8.10 patch (mid-November) when 9 vs 9 co-op battles were introduced?

 

Here's one post on that original thread, to remind you and the rest about it...

 

Here is the screenshot for the ones too lazy to open the post and read it...

 

And a short explanation for the ones not understanding the issue, even with the screenshot:

 

There are 4 enemy ships remaining. The enemy team has 55 points. Georgia was sunk few seconds later, before I even approach her. You lose 60 points when your BB get sunk so once the Georgia was sent to the bottom, it was over. The battle ended not even reaching the 4 minute mark with 3 ships on the enemy team remaining alive, 2 of which with full HP.

 

This happens more often than not and everyone who plays co-op battles regularly know this.

 

I hope it's clear and understandable now. But again - if it needs to be elaborated with even more details, just let me know.

 

 

I play CoOp for my "neglected" lines (and also finish "Daily Missions" and "Directives" that way).

 

If I have time I play 10 CoOp battles a day (usually it takes 45 minutes to do that).

 

I play Tiers V - VI - VII.

 

In all those daily games just 1 game ends on points (i.e. enemy BOT team fell below 0)  - 9 games end because all enemy BOT ships are destroyed.

 

Also I usually kill 2-3 BOTs per game.

 

 

So... please don't be condescending and read what is written before you answer...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Arnesson]

Vor 1 Stunde, Leo_Apollo11 sagte:

In all those daily games just 1 game ends on points (i.e. enemy BOT team fell below 0)  - 9 games end because all enemy BOT ships are destroyed.

 

Also I usually kill 2-3 BOTs per game.

Ah, you mostly play DDs as it seems. Any halfway competent DD player should be happy with coop as it is. BBs not so much, especially in tiers V to VII with those very slow American BBs for example.

 

Vor 16 Stunden, Palubarac sagte:

Yes, I know this has been proposed as well but even as a complete noob when it comes to coding and developing I know that's probably the hardest and most time-consuming way to fix the issue.

If I remember correctly somebody somewhere mentioned there is a better bot AI in the game: in scenario battles. But I've also heard WG already tried using those improved AI bots in coop games once on test server - and human win rate more or less collapsed :-)

[DirtyHeddy]

1 hour ago, Arnesson said:

If I remember correctly somebody somewhere mentioned there is a better bot AI in the game: in scenario battles. But I've also heard WG already tried using those improved AI bots in coop games once on test server - and human win rate more or less collapsed :-)

In December 19 I met a set of bots on the PTS which behaved quite different ... I had hopes they would be implemented on the live-server ...

[Seaman_Staines1]

On 1/17/2020 at 11:43 AM, MrConway said:

This will of course not mean short battles cannot happen, but they should be much less frequent. We'll keep an eye on it and see how it evolves

Rubbish.

Average time 7 min and you know why and it is not for the reasons you stated.

This all started when WG changed the team lineup.

[Afghanicus]

 

4 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

 

I play CoOp for my "neglected" lines (and also finish "Daily Missions" and "Directives" that way).

 

If I have time I play 10 CoOp battles a day (usually it takes 45 minutes to do that).

 

I play Tiers V - VI - VII.

 

In all those daily games just 1 game ends on points (i.e. enemy BOT team fell below 0)  - 9 games end because all enemy BOT ships are destroyed.

 

Also I usually kill 2-3 BOTs per game.

 

So... please don't be condescending and read what is written before you answer...

 

Leo "Apollo11"

I read your reply, you just never said how many battles you played or gave any details. I'm not Nostradamus.

 

Anyways, let's agree that we have completely different experience when it comes to battles ending too soon due to the 'bot team' reaching 0. Seems like you have 10% of those (even though a 10 games sample is too small for any relevant data) and I have more like 40-50%. (about half of the games end that way).

 

3 hours ago, Arnesson said:

Ah, you mostly play DDs as it seems. Any halfway competent DD player should be happy with coop as it is. BBs not so much, especially in tiers V to VII with those very slow American BBs for example.

 

If I remember correctly somebody somewhere mentioned there is a better bot AI in the game: in scenario battles. But I've also heard WG already tried using those improved AI bots in coop games once on test server - and human win rate more or less collapsed :-)

Not sure where are you digging the data from or how you read it but DDs are the class I least play, in any game mode.

 

I love when people start checking other players' stats to prove a point but they fail miserably in doing so.

 

1 hour ago, DirtyHeddy said:

In December 19 I met a set of bots on the PTS which behaved quite different ... I had hopes they would be implemented on the live-server ...

The bots on the PTS seem to always behave differently than the ones one the live server.

 

58 minutes ago, Scipio_Africanus1829 said:

Rubbish.

Average time 7 min and you know why and it is not for the reasons you stated.

This all started when WG changed the team lineup.

If your average co-op battle last 7 minutes, you seem to be an exception.

 

From my experience and what I read (including examples from the threads on the forum, even this one), the average battle time seems to be 4-5 minutes. Often even less than 4 minutes like in some examples posted.

[Seaman_Staines1]

7 minutes ago, Palubarac said:

If your average co-op battle last 7 minutes, you seem to be an exception.

I was trying to be generous to WG.

4 5 or 7 minutes is still a disgrace. My beef was with the blatant falsehoods in Mr Conways reply.

 

[Seaman_Staines1]

On 1/17/2020 at 12:43 PM, Leo_Apollo11 said:

I love the fact that CoOp battles last 4-5 minutes... that suits my needs 100% perfectly...

Fortunately I find it hard to be that selfish...................

[Arnesson]

Vor 2 Stunden, Palubarac sagte:

I love when people start checking other players' stats to prove a point but they fail miserably in doing so.

You might have noticed I'ved quoted Leo_Apollo11 and referred to his statement.

[Afghanicus]

3 hours ago, Arnesson said:

You might have noticed I'ved quoted Leo_Apollo11 and referred to his statement.

I did not. My bad.

 

I guess I'm getting toxic every time I see players digging stats from someone else just to prove a point or find something they can use against them. Not necessarily in this case but I'm seeing it every day and that's why I might overreact sometimes when something like that pops up.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

18 hours ago, Arnesson said:

Ah, you mostly play DDs as it seems. Any halfway competent DD player should be happy with coop as it is. BBs not so much, especially in tiers V to VII with those very slow American BBs for example.

 

 

Yes... 100% correct... DDs and torpedo armed CLs / CAs on my "neglected" lines... for all BBs I reached Tier X long time ago in "Random" battles (and I use CoOp for BBs only where there is some specific "Directive")...

 

BTW, I always accepted CoOp to be great fun for all people who appreciate it - no stress and just some nice quick action (and that can't be guaranteed in" Random" and/or "Scenario" battles)!

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"