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Saiyko

What's up with the Norse names for German premiums?

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To make it clear, I am not German, nor a Wehraboo. I have had an interest for history all my life though, and I get somewhat annoyed by the namegiving of (possible/future) German premiums.

 

Odin and Ägir are names from Norse mythology, and would afaik never be a source for the names of German ships. If I were to speculate, this reeks of lazy "history channel like" history, as in "10 reasons why Nazi's were fascinated with the Viking legends, click here". It might do for an Indiana Jones movie, but that's it.

 

The Norse/old Germanic fascination was merely an SS thing (and mainly Himmler), not really Hitlers, let alone the rest of the German army/navy. I don't follow the German forums, but I hope at least there there has been some protest against this?

 

I understand that namegiving for this period might be sensitive, but getting into the hobby territories of the leader of the SS and the holocaust executive, might be less innocent than it seems at first sight, especially if that's the only reason to go there in search of names?

 

There must be some admirals/politicians who are both neutral enough for WG's SJW worries and historically significant enough to have been at least a plausible namegiver for a KM ship.

 

Cause the current names aren't.

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Political corectness? 

I'm still wating for Ulrich von Hutten,  Götz von Berlichingen or Florian Geyer which are all historical names.

 

But WG seems to go the other way around naming ships like Lenin who is considered as a mass murderer in some countries and which is also the propagation of communist totalitarian regime. Illegal in some countries.

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Or maybe inspired by Richard Wagner and his operas?

Where 'Ride of the Valkyries' comes from.......

 

Or like maybe they were real ships?

 

a quick bing search shows:

 

Coastal defense ships

220px-S.M._k%C3%BCstenpanzerschiff_Hagen
 
Lithograph of SMS Hagen in 1902
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18 minutes ago, Molly_Delaney said:

Or maybe inspired by Richard Wagner and his operas?

Where 'Ride of the Valkyries' comes from.......

 

Or like maybe they were real ships?

 

a quick bing search shows:

 

Coastal defense ships

220px-S.M._k%C3%BCstenpanzerschiff_Hagen
 
Lithograph of SMS Hagen in 1902

Uuu 1-0 for you. 

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20 minutes ago, Molly_Delaney said:

Or like maybe they were real ships?

 

a quick bing search shows:

Different time period maybe? That's the Kaiserliche marine (ww1 and decades before) you're referring to.

 

The kriegsmarine (ww2) had a very typical naming scheme - like the cities for the light cruisers. The heavier ships seemed to be all important historical figures, be it political (bismarck) or militarily (admiral hipper, blucher, etc)

 

A few others that might have been historically possible are mentioned above by @ImperialAdmiral

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Dunno about the ship names, I'd just be happy if the lazy gits at WG would just fix the flags on the tier 2, 3, & 4 German ships. If they can be bothered to differentiate between the Tsarist navy and the Red navy then they can do it for the Kaiserliche Marine and Kriegsmarine. 

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1 hour ago, Saiyko said:

Different time period maybe? That's the Kaiserliche marine (ww1 and decades before) you're referring to.

 

The kriegsmarine (ww2) had a very typical naming scheme - like the cities for the light cruisers. The heavier ships seemed to be all important historical figures, be it political (bismarck) or militarily (admiral hipper, blucher, etc)

 

A few others that might have been historically possible are mentioned above by @ImperialAdmiral

The Kriegsmarine was an extension and continuation of the Kaiserliche Marine, because of the simple fact that it's core leadership was part of the Kaiserliche Marine that stayed in service after WWI and moved to the Reichsmarine.

The naming scheme was identical in both:

-Battleships - famous leaders, provinces, titles.

-Cruisers/great cruisers - generals/admirals.

-Light cruisers - cities.

-Destroyers - numbers.

 

Just take a look. The more you look the more you will have to realize Kriegsmarine just did what RN did, reused traditional names. Bismarck for example was used in 1875, 1897, 1915, 1939.

 

To be honest, using the names of those historical coastal BBs is a stroke of genius.  The names are traditional used before on ships, not pulled out of the realm of fantasy. There were no identically named ships afterwards. WG can also work with those names to create special camos etc. And identifying those names with Nazi crimes just shows incredible ignorance, as they were part of the naval history of Germany before that and in modern context do not stand for Nazi ideology at all.

 

2 hours ago, ImperialAdmiral said:

I'm still wating for Ulrich von Hutten,  Götz von Berlichingen or Florian Geyer which are all historical names.

None of which have any naval connection nor were used by the Prussian/Imperial German navy before. Instead they were used by the army. So a completely different situation than Aegir.

German/Prussian ships were often named after generals, Roon for example was a Prussian general and military reformer (and his name is said as it is written, with a long "o" and nut an "u"). Then those names were reused by the Kriegsmarine.

 

PS: Just on a lark I googled all three ship names with google search:

-Odin - besides the deity I got only offers for Marvel merchandise.

-Aegir - deity, plus a pipe-laying ship and a pub in Norway. The pub looks nice.

-Siegfried - hero, Fate Grand Order character, and one half of Siegfried and Roy duo (dude's 80 though and the only white power thing with those two were the tigers).

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41 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

And identifying those names with Nazi crimes just shows incredible ignorance, as they were part of the naval history of Germany before that and in modern context do not stand for Nazi ideology at all. 

While I admit I was wrong about the origin of the names - I did not know about the coastal defence ships - I also did not just identify them with nazi crimes.

 

41 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

Just take a look. The more you look the more you will have to realize Kriegsmarine just did what RN did, reused traditional names. Bismarck for example was used in 1875, 1897, 1915, 1939.

 

To be honest, using the names of those historical coastal BBs is a stroke of genius.

Why is it genius?

The Norse/Wagnerian names were used by one and only one select class, namely coastal defence ships. These were relatively small ships, nothing compared to the class the ingame Odin/Ägir is supposed to be like. Hence why they probably got their own separate class of names (i.e. the norse/wagnerian)

 

The ingame ones sit somewhere in the large cruiser/battlecruiser class, and there Germany in whichever navy form did have its own name scheme. Which means, historical persons or indeed, titles. Not Norse gods.

 

41 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

None of which have any naval connection nor were used by the Prussian/Imperial German navy before. Instead they were used by the army. So a completely different situation than Aegir.

German/Prussian ships were often named after generals, Roon for example was a Prussian general and military reformer (and his name is said as it is written, with a long "o" and nut an "u"). Then those names were reused by the Kriegsmarine. 

von Hutten and von Berlichingen were possible names given by Hitler for two of the H class battleships in construction, who would have higher authority in the namegiving than maritime tradition. Amazing you didn't know that, since you seem to know it all.

 

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2 hours ago, guy_incognito79 said:

Dunno about the ship names, I'd just be happy if the lazy gits at WG would just fix the flags on the tier 2, 3, & 4 German ships. If they can be bothered to differentiate between the Tsarist navy and the Red navy then they can do it for the Kaiserliche Marine and Kriegsmarine. 

Well, when Friesland and Blyskawica became "european" tree they got that ugly flag (outline of a continent, seriously?) instead national flags. So it seems only Russian ships deserve proper flags.

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2 hours ago, Molly_Delaney said:

Or maybe inspired by Richard Wagner and his operas?

Where 'Ride of the Valkyries' comes from.......

 

Or like maybe they were real ships?

 

a quick bing search shows:

 

Coastal defense ships

220px-S.M._k%C3%BCstenpanzerschiff_Hagen
 
Lithograph of SMS Hagen in 1902

Those are coastal defense ships. Not battleships, which means they obviously use different name patters. The only battleship, that was not named after Royalty or Territory was SMS Wörth, which was named after the Battle of Wörth.

The Brandenburg class, Germany's first series of ocean going battleships was laid down in the same time, and was more than double the sice of the coastal defense units, while also bringing up 6x11" guns each, compared to  3x9.4" guns of the Siegfried class, while also being faster, and better armored.

 

This is a german battleship of the same era:

S.M._Linienschiff_Brandenburg.jpg

 

 

(Also if we use the Wagner Fetish as a source, Odin should be called Wotan. :P)

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51 minutes ago, Peroidas said:

Well, when Friesland and Blyskawica became "european" tree they got that ugly flag (outline of a continent, seriously?) instead national flags. So it seems only Russian ships deserve proper flags.

You can change to the nation flag under "Exterior" -> "Flags".

 

From the Wiki: "Ships from tech trees that cover multiple nations — such as Commonwealth or Pan-Asia — can choose to fly either the "national" flag shown in the tech tree, or the ensign of the nation they actually represent."

 

shot-19_08.25_19_39.14-0863.thumb.jpg.2e3c32703cc069d4a09a8c2a5cc7b937.jpg

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1 hour ago, Saiyko said:

While I admit I was wrong about the origin of the names - I did not know about the coastal defence ships - I also did not just identify them with nazi crimes.

And yet you wrote this:

5 hours ago, Saiyko said:

I understand that namegiving for this period might be sensitive, but getting into the hobby territories of the leader of the SS and the holocaust executive, might be less innocent than it seems at first sight, especially if that's the only reason to go there in search of names?

So please, don't play innocent.

 

1 hour ago, Saiyko said:

Why is it genius?

Because people have no expectations of them, no association. You start naming those ships using historical names like Moltke or Markgraf and people will ask why. Using names of a forgotten pre-dreadnaught class? No association, save the one based on a name. And speaking about names, WG can go wild with some Norse themed stuff just based on them alone.

 

1 hour ago, Saiyko said:

von Hutten and von Berlichingen were possible names given by Hitler for two of the H class battleships in construction, who would have higher authority in the namegiving than maritime tradition. Amazing you didn't know that, since you seem to know it all.

While I didn't know that, I have sourced the claim to a monograph written by a steno-typist tasked with writing down Hitler's table talk after dinner in his HQ. The book is called  Adolf Hitler. Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944. Aufgezeichnet von Heinrich Heim. Let me quote directly from the book:

 

Spoiler

P.206

Führerhauptquartier

19. 6. 1943

 

Ich hatte früher den Plan, ein Schlachtschiffgeschwader zu bauen. Es sollte das stärkste der Welt werden. Die beiden schwersten Einheiten sollten die Namen »Ullrich von Hutten« und  »Götz  von  Berlichingen«  führen.  Heute  bin  ich  froh,  daß  es  zu  diesem  Bau  nicht gekommen ist.

 

Translation:

I had earlier a plan, to build such a Battleship squadron. It would have been the strongest in the world. The two heaviest ships would be named »Ullrich von Hutten« and »Götz  von  Berlichingen«. Today I'm happy the construction was not started.

 

That statement was made after Plan Z was cancelled and Dönitz took over. So it remains doubtful if the names would be used at all if Plan Z was realized, as Erich Raeder was an old Prusian officer and he would oppose them.

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5 hours ago, Saiyko said:

Odin and Ägir are names from Norse mythology, and would afaik never be a source for the names of German ships. If I were to speculate, this reeks of lazy "history channel like" history, as in "10 reasons why Nazi's were fascinated with the Viking legends, click here". It might do for an Indiana Jones movie, but that's it.

 

You would be surprised about some names of the tanks of my former tank battalion - We had Wotan, Hades, Widar and also Odin. :)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Peroidas said:

(outline of a continent, seriously?)

 

It's not too far-fetched. The first that comes to mind is Cyprus, but a bunch of flags have or have had outlines drawn on them. And at least it's completly politically neutral, since geographical Europe ain't gonna change anytime soon, unless the Eurasian plate somehow decides to shatter and widen the channel to take the British on a magical journey. So yeah, might not be the prettiest but it's logical at least.

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The issue of many imperial  battleships is, that they are names after Royalty. One thing the Nazis always feard was the strong  support many germans could still have, which would also lead to the so called "Prinzenerlass" in 1940 banning all sons of the german royal houses of serving in the armed forces when  one of the grandsons of William ll was killed and during the funeral they became aware how strong support   for Royalty still was.

 

Since the Nazis saw the royal as a threat for power, and Nazis had disdain for them it appears unlikely, to Name ships after most royals. Which is also already a problem for the Grosser Kurfürst. 

Frederick the Great was probably the exception, since Hitler and Nazi Propaganda abused Frederick's larger than life status. 

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3 hours ago, Saiyko said:

Different time period maybe? That's the Kaiserliche marine (ww1 and decades before) you're referring to.

 

The kriegsmarine (ww2) had a very typical naming scheme - like the cities for the light cruisers. The heavier ships seemed to be all important historical figures, be it political (bismarck) or militarily (admiral hipper, blucher, etc)

 

A few others that might have been historically possible are mentioned above by @ImperialAdmiral

 

Well. The Reason that Germany did not Name Ships according to Norse Gods in WW2 was mostly because they already had given these Names on other Places.

Odin for example was a Railway Artillery at that time.

Siegfried is not a Norse God Name by the way. But a German Hero Name. I find that Interesting actually. Cause thats actually more of a Rarety.

Mainz is actually an Inaccurate Name. Because only Light Cruisers were named for Cities. But while in British Classification the Mainz might have been a Light Cruiser due to the 15cm Guns. German Classification worked by Tonnage and Armor. And Mainz was Definitively a Heavy Cruiser. So it should actually have been Named by some Count like Graf Spee or an Importand Military Figure like Admiral Hipper etc.

 

If the H-Class Battleships, the O-Class Battlecruisers and the P-Class Panzerschiffe had been actually Build. It is actually likely that they would have Received Names from Norse Gods and Heroes as well as further Leaders.

 

 

Now what someone should keep in mind.

Historically Accurate Names would likely have Included Göring and the Mustache Man himself. As well as possibly Nobles from the German Military.

Hence. Going for that is an unlikely Option for Wargaming. Thus the heavier Focus on Norse Gods instead.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, josykay said:

The issue of many imperial  battleships is, that they are names after Royalty. One thing the Nazis always feard was the strong  support many germans could still have, which would also lead to the so called "Prinzenerlass" in 1940 banning all sons of the german royal houses of serving in the armed forces when  one of the grandsons of William ll was killed and during the funeral they became aware how strong support   for Royalty still was.

 

Since the Nazis saw the royal as a threat for power, and Nazis had disdain for them it appears unlikely, to Name ships after most royals. Which is also already a problem for the Grosser Kurfürst. 

Frederick the Great was probably the exception, since Hitler and Nazi Propaganda abused Frederick's larger than life status. 

Well, the old Kaiserliche Marine had some names that fit that bill:

-Arminius

-Karl der Große/Charlemagne

-Emperor Barbarossa

-Friedrich der Große

 

They also used province names for ships. That could be a way out. And of course the thing WG used, Germanic myths.

 

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2 hours ago, Peroidas said:

Well, when Friesland and Blyskawica became "european" tree they got that ugly flag (outline of a continent, seriously?) instead national flags. So it seems only Russian ships deserve proper flags.

You know that you can change that right? 

Skärmbild (114).png

Skärmbild (115).png

Skärmbild (116).png

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1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Historically Accurate Names would likely have Included Göring and the Mustache Man himself.

Guess that wouldn't happen, same reason why the ship Deutschland got renamed. Imagine a ship with the name of the Führer would be sunk

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5 hours ago, Peroidas said:

Well, when Friesland and Blyskawica became "european" tree they got that ugly flag (outline of a continent, seriously?) instead national flags. So it seems only Russian ships deserve proper flags.

Thought the same, even made a threat about it.

 

The stench of shame still lingers. ;)

 

But seriously, the option to mount historical flags is not very obvious.

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There would never be a ship with the name Großer Kurfürst. Its just a horrible name. But of course Lenin is totally ok for WG. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Dragoner84 said:

There would never be a ship with the name Großer Kurfürst. Its just a horrible name. But of course Lenin is totally ok for WG. 

 

Second ship of the König class was named Großer Kurfürst, after elector Friedrich Wilhelm I of Prussia.

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10 hours ago, Saiyko said:

To make it clear, I am not German, nor a Wehraboo. I have had an interest for history all my life though, and I get somewhat annoyed by the namegiving of (possible/future) German premiums.

 

Odin and Ägir are names from Norse mythology, and would afaik never be a source for the names of German ships. If I were to speculate, this reeks of lazy "history channel like" history, as in "10 reasons why Nazi's were fascinated with the Viking legends, click here". It might do for an Indiana Jones movie, but that's it.

 

The Norse/old Germanic fascination was merely an SS thing (and mainly Himmler), not really Hitlers, let alone the rest of the German army/navy. I don't follow the German forums, but I hope at least there there has been some protest against this?

 

I understand that namegiving for this period might be sensitive, but getting into the hobby territories of the leader of the SS and the holocaust executive, might be less innocent than it seems at first sight, especially if that's the only reason to go there in search of names?

 

There must be some admirals/politicians who are both neutral enough for WG's SJW worries and historically significant enough to have been at least a plausible namegiver for a KM ship.

 

Cause the current names aren't.

Historically Germany in ww2 used and distorted Norse Mythos for their own agendas Runes and names of gods were used rather often during the 30's and 40s and had a rather nasty side effected of the perception of anything Norse to be likened to the ruling party of Germany in ww2 after the war.

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I dont mind it personally, Otherwise you only have heroes, leaders and maybe cities left for names unless they go for battles, rivers and provences as well.

I like the name personally, question is will she actually be good doe?

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51 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

Historically Germany in ww2 used and distorted Norse Mythos for their own agendas Runes and names of gods were used rather often during the 30's and 40s and had a rather nasty side effected of the perception of anything Norse to be likened to the ruling party of Germany in ww2 after the war.

True, but as far as the military was concerned, it were really only Himmler's SS units that went all out with the Germanic symbolism (see for example the "Das Reich" and "Landstorm Nederlands" Waffen-SS divisions).

 

Since the SS and the Kriegsmarine were very separate entities, the OP does have a point.

 

Edit: compare https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Insignia_of_the_Wehrmacht to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Waffen-SS_divisions (it's Wehrmacht vs Waffen-SS, but you get the gist)

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