Guns vs. Torps

[harleaquin]

From what i've seen so far, i think torps are a bit op. When i fully hit a one tier lower destroyer with my battleship guns broadside - i do not even 20% of the damage he does with only 2-3 torpedos. Yes, torpedos have lower range and long reload - but should a destroyer really be able to one-hit a battleship if he gets close?

didn't we learn from wot arty that one hit weapon systems are a nono ?

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

Ragestorm from DD Lovers in 3... 2... 1...

 

 

EDIT: here are you standard answers from the usual guys:

 

- use the search

- this is the 1.000th thread about this

 

also, regarding torps:

- its hard to hit anything with them

- they wont always do full damage

- if you think they are "op", why not play them yourself

- learn to play and avoid getting hit

- you should play DD before you start complaining

- it gets better in higher tierlevels

 

 

[KptStrzyga]

No rage, just simple question: whats easier, hitting someone with gun or with torp? Also what is easier to avoid? 

[_ramrus_]

Play all classes, lots of games, then tell us what you think.

You are now suffering from lack of experience.

[playarci]

I just put 4 torps into the side of a Wakatake from my Wakatake and then had to finish him off with the gun, you said something about torps being op? 

[Seinta]

1st - its not your job to shoot DD, your job is to shoot BBs and Cruisers. Learn your ships role.

2nd - if you let a DD get close to you, you deserve to be sunk

3rd -  stop playing WoT and start playing WoWs. Everything shot at you can be avoided, there is no comparison to WoTs arty.

 

Most importantly LEARN TO PLAY.

Nothing is OP if you know how to react to your surrounding, so don't complain and go sink some ships.

[Islacrusez]

Fun fact, ships IRL have sunk from as little as two air-dropped torps. In game, things are far more generous; perhaps too generous.

 

Understand your threat, act accordingly; this will save you from hours of rage.

[Fominator]

 

From what I've seen so far (around 1000 matches during the CAT and only around 250 in the CBT), I think shells are a bit op. When I fully hit a one tier lower battleship with my torpedoes  - i do not even 100% of the damage he does with only 2-3 volleys. Yes, torpedoes somehow have shorter range and x5 the reload at high tier (they also only hit baddies) - but should a battleship really be able to one-hit any other goddamn ship in the game every 30 seconds?

Didn't we learn from wot arty that one hit weapon systems are a nono ?

 

[Historynerd]

Battleships should fire at destroyers only when nothing else is available as a target, or if the destroyer is attempting a torpedo run towards the player.

 

Now, I won't say "learn to play" and other insulting things to do, but it is a fact that some tactics can help a lot when dealing with destroyers, like avoiding certain areas (smokescreens, islands, straits) whenever there is suspicion of enemy DDs in there; and if one is under attack, he can present his stern to the destroyer, forcing him to run up to you (and getting damage from main and secondary batteries) and making his attack more difficult.

 

More than once, when I fired at a destroyer with a battleship, I oneshotted him; this doesn't happen everytime simply because destroyers are small, because there is a huge chance of overpenetrating him, because even HE shell offer no absolute guarantee of destroying him with one swift shot.

Besides, battleships have huge HP pools, and they have the repair ability; if one uses enough prudence, a BB can soak up a lot of damage, and receive less than a one-shot kill, but if he acts like a kamikaze, it's obvious that he will get sunk rather quickly. Even in a battlewagon, one is not invincible, nor is his health infinite; getting in a fight with multiple enemies, or getting in a situation where multiple attacks from multiple directions without support, is a rather grave mistake.

 

Moreover, the USN battleships are coming over, and it seems they will be generally slower but better protected than their IJN counterparts; with this, and the armor patch coming, we might feel differently about BBs, so let's not be hasty about how the gameplay feels, right when it's about to change.

[Figment]

Ragestorm from DD Lovers in 3... 2... 1...

 

 

EDIT: here are you standard answers from the usual guys:

 

If you want to post flamebait, should I make a list for BB users? Or like the OP (as per usual), people with approximately 1 to 30 battles to their name, most of which in BBs?

 

(OP: 22 matches, 2 BBs (15 matches), three cruisers (7 matches) - where of course you start with two cruisers, 40% winrate: comes on to forum, blames enemy equipment). Really Wisch? You want that bias conversation about bad players who always go for the big guns and armour in a game then complain when the sneaky guns win, again?

 

It's also fun that you missed out on all the important answers. You know, the ones you were ignoring in the previous debates.

[Figment]

Actually, maybe we should start a debate about pre-conception bias and ask the OP exactly what he expected prior to the game and why this battleship line looked so appealing to him.

 

 

Shall we Wisch? Shall we dig deeper into the subconscious of starting players and find out the real motivations behind their choices and questions? Why they play the game? Why they go for certain lines? What their ambitions are? What they want from gameplay? What classes they deem inferior prior to playing the game?

 

 

Maybe ask what they expected from destroyers? Like what role, what armaments and how powerful they expected those to be?

[Fominator]

Shall we Wisch? Shall we dig deeper into the subconscious of starting players and find out the real motivations behind their choices and questions? Why they play the game? Why they go for certain lines? What their ambitions are? What they want from gameplay? What classes they deem inferior prior to playing the game?

 

Playing BBs, driving a big car, maybe collecting big weapons, you already know why. *cough* Small [edited] *cough*

[Islacrusez]

Now you're just being mean. Downvote the troll into oblivion and occasionally report him. Maybe he'll go away.

[Fominator]

Too close to home?

 

A joke about torpedoes could had been a better retort.

[Figment]

Too close to home?

 

A joke about torpedoes could had been a better retort.

 

He agrees, but I'd rather keep it factual (people do have preconceptions, dreams and ambitions when they start playing a game, dreams of grandeur) and not insulting.

 

I mean, why do people save/reload games like Total War when they lose a battle and a region?

 

Because they want to win. It's not good for the ego to lose (just look at the rage in game), let alone lose from AI. Or something "naughty" or "unfair", which is of course completely perception.

 

What does the less knowledgeable player think they can do with a big ship? Tank damage, blast everything into oblivion with cannons in epic duels between Bismarck and Prince of Wales. Torpedoes are likely not something they ever dealt with or thought about before. Many people think sneak attacks are "lame" and for "wussies" (even if those players never have even the foggiest about high risk high reward gameplay). But that's conjecture and speculation right now. So I'm curious to see what the OP has to say on that.

[Fominator]

Because they want to win. It's not good for the ego to lose (just look at the rage in game), let alone lose from AI. Or something "naughty" or "unfair", which is of course completely perception.

 

Now, that's pretty lame. When I play Europa Universalis o Civilization or something I only save when exiting the game, it makes the things more fun in the long way, and lets you enjoy all the comets.

 

What does the less knowledgeable player think they can do with a big ship? Tank damage, blast everything into oblivion with cannons in epic duels between Bismarck and Prince of Wales. Torpedoes are likely not something they ever dealt with or thought about before. Many people think sneak attacks are "lame" and for "wussies" (even if those players never have even the foggiest about high risk high reward gameplay). But that's conjecture and speculation right now. So I'm curious to see what the OP has to say on that.

 

I'll say most BB players doesn't even conceive the idea of "tanking damage", they just camp the blue line. I've read a lot of times "BBs are support, they fight from the last row and need babysitting from CAs".

 

Again, other BB players fit part of your description, probably the ones who like Nagato, exploiting her huge HP pool, armor, repair skill and strong secondaries to play aggressive and wreck the enemy team form medium distance engagements. These usually know how to play, so don't complaint about torpedoes. Heck, I never saw any player with 1000 or more games among all the kind of ship bitching about torps or planes, they are always the same two archetypes, new players and dedicated BB players with bad stats.

[Figment]

Now, that's pretty lame. When I play Europa Universalis o Civilization or something I only save when exiting the game, it makes the things more fun in the long way, and lets you enjoy all the comets.

Just ignore the peasant rabble.

 

 

EDIT: And play in Ironman for Byzantine glory.

[harleaquin]

how i missed those natural born pro gamers, that don't invest 30sec to really read a post, but 5 min to check the stats and conclude: low matchcount, no 70% winrate, tomatoe = he's wrong....

 

i do NOT blame destroyers to be able to kill a bs - that's theire job. i do NOT whine that a battleship doesn't one-hit a de - that's not theire job. i simply raise the question if we really (again) need a weaponsystem that is able to one-hit others? a destroyer should always win a close range 1vs1 with a bs - but how about needing more than 3 torps hitting to do his job?

 

battleships aren't and shouldn't be safe-win ships - i never expected them to be like that. i don't expect them to fire nuke shells over 50km and one hit everything. i expect them to be able to tank some hits, work with range and theire hp - and i expect them to need freaking avoid close range contact with a destroyer.

what do i expect from a destroyer? i expect him to have a freaking gard job to reach the big ships and fire off his torps and really hit something. but does that include beeing able to one hit a bs with 3 torpedoes? i expect him to use his agility to reach that goal. sure, torps need to have BAAAM, cause the destroyer can't cruise arround the battleship forever - but....

 

 

totally possible that after 500+ matches i end up playing small ships and rage about them not beeing able to get into torp range alive normally - but now, after my few bad played matches in the not-pro big ship, i just think that getting one-hitted by another player reminds me too much of wot arty. not more - not less.

 

 

[Figment]

i do NOT blame destroyers to be able to kill a bs - that's theire job.

 

Actually you did, by raising the issue after just a few matches and calling it OP. Note: you said: "i think torps are a bit op". Meaning you already drew a conclusion based on the very little information and experience you have.

 

I would also point out that torpedoes do NOT "one hit" BBs (unless there's a critical ammo rack explosion which happens one in 500 torp hits for about 40K damage), you need at least 4-6 hits to kill a BB, sometimes 12. So no, they don't "one hit", unless the BB player got completely outplayed (where the phrasing should be, let him or herself be outplayed), in which case they get "one-salvoed". ie. they take a full spread of torpedoes, because they did NOTHING to avoid them. And yes, you are supposed to and can fairly easy. They have to hit hard because of the low chance of actually hitting if the enemy player knows what to do (rather than sail on) and very importantly, knowing their limits and thus what not to do. Since you only have 15 matches in and probably aren't the elite-uber-I-know-these-things-instantly type player (which most of us arn't), you'll have to learn the hard way. Like we all did. It always helps to play that which you fear or hate, since then you'll find out their blind spots, weaknesses and how you can make yourself a hard target. That is, if you pay attention and learn from other people's mistakes.

 

So yes, you're being premature with your very insinuative and in your eyes quite rhetorical question.

 

i do NOT whine that a battleship doesn't one-hit a de - that's not theire job.

 

Actually they do one (salvo) hit destroyers, as well as light AND heavy cruisers and even BBs if they get one citadel hit on a destroyer and maybe a scraping shot, or a couple citadel hits on a cruiser (which is fairly easy at a range of 7-13km for BBs)), which happens regularly to the first two classes, not so much to the BBs. Max damage of a BB AP shell is around 10-15K, where DDs up to tier 10 have about 8K-14K hp and for cruisers about 16-30K on the lower tiers.

 

 

For the record, I'm not a natural born pro-gamer. I'm just not total crap while blaming the game for my defeats. And... Yes you are. Otherwise your question would have been "How do I deal with torpedoes aimed at me?", rather than going straight for "Oh my these things can kill me, should they?".

 

Big difference: first question is the attitude of "I'm new to the game, I'm sure I do okay, but there's things I need to learn". The latter is "I should be amongst the gods in a few more rounds, but something is holding me back and it isn't me" attitude.

 

 

 

Also, why do you get hit by WoT arty? They are so easy to avoid. :/ IF they land a shot, you're either doing something wrong, YOU decided to take a risk into an area where you know they can fire or they got really lucky. Again, PLAY with artillery to learn how to AVOID becoming a nice artillery target. Many players complaining about artillery don't and keep repeating the mistakes that made them a big target, rather than play arti and realise when someone is NOT a target for you.

 

For the record: you bring up the "arti problem" and noobmeter.com shows you have next to no matches in SPGs compared to your other units, plus you performed really bad in them. http://www.noobmeter.com/player/eu/harleaquin/500006611/

 

See the pattern I'm talking about?

[Fominator]

Again, the worst offenders of "one hitting" are the battleships. (BTW, is BB not BS, blame the Americans).

 

Also you could had invested 30 seconds in searching for torpedo threads before posting, there are literally dozens.

[harleaquin]

thx for showing me that the wows community is allready at a point, where the wot community is now after years.... you invest minutes of time to check stats and blame someone beeing a bad noob that should have *insert whatever in here* before posting - in half the time you could have just post: wait till higher tiers / more battles, and you'll see things aren't the way you think after few battles.

 

but back to the issue:

 

what do you expect from a bs player in your team? what's the job you try to do in your bs? how do you avoid lovely de torp salvos?

how did you avoid them in lower tiers where a bs has below 15km range?

 

oh and i use bs for battleship cause years of eve online burned that into my brain. and btw thats the game from wich my expectations come on "ship" balancing. big ships are slow, high alpha, lousy at hitting fast and small targets. small ships have high rof, are fast and agile, and suck at alpha dmg. a bs can't kill a de without support  - and a de needs ages to kill a bs solo.

if the wows shiptype roles/balancing is ways off that - i would love to get a few hints on how things are expected to run in this game.

 

and yes, i see a pattern - most likely not the one you think of, but there is a pattern.... but maybe we can stop with the stats-epeen thing here? cause unless your's deep purple - i don't care about it.

[Figment]

1. I was addressing mostly Wischmob, who has been trolling every torpedo related topic since he and others made much the same topic as you did, also prior to having any experience in game.

2. You also reached the level of every frustrated new player that runs straight for forums after encountering something they want to blame for underperformance, so kudos?

3. Stats indicate pretty well how good a player performs, which combined with their posting attitude suggests what kind of player they are. For instance, how do they cope with defeat (scapegoating or seeking to learn and improve).

4. Communities don't reach that level, annoyed usualy above average players do as they CAN cope so they wonder why others cannot and why these others play the blame game first. You know why, we all do.

5. Waiting for higher tiers is not necessary, waiting for building up experience is. Low tier DDs perform well due to one thing mostly: lacking situational awareness and not knowing how to deal with a new situation by new players, while torpedoes are rather intuitive to use with their lead indicators and learning from experience what safe and optimal distances to fire from are. Avoidance takes practice and geometric/speed collision insight, situational awareness and knowledge of your ship's turning capacities and a paranoid prediction of enemy positions. The latter you get from either using DDs or more slowly from encountering DDs.

 

 

So in short, what are the do's and don'ts?

 

- check the map every few seconds for spotted enemies

- prioritise point defense when enemy ships get within 7km range: try to maintain a distance of at least 5-5.5km with DDs.

- when DDs are spotted, try to guess how they plan to sneak up on you

- never give them a good course projection, change course every 10ish seconds

- get out of gunner mode as much as possible to plot your course and check your environment both map and around you

- avoid fog (min. 5km distance) unless you are sure they are out of torps with a long reload (tier 6+) or you killed them

- avoid narrow sections of the map: ensure you can always turn away

- if a DD is spotted, assume you have been fired against. You will not spot the torpedoes till they get within 2km, but you might have seen the firing (splash in water). But even if you didn't, increase range, change course and hit full reverse asap.

- in some situations, bait torps with low speed, then speed up, or with high speed and slow down, for instance around corners with torp players at over 5-6 km distance and you being aware you are sighted by their team

- always prioritise the DD or torp cruisers over the other when they get within 6-7km. They are easy kills, but also high alpha dealers and hard to avoid multiple times while dodging often throws of your gun angles. Thus priority targets.

- stay with other ships, cruisers in particular.

- if torps are launched from really close by (one ship width), turn into the torpedoes

- when you see aircraft, press ctrl and click on the nearest torp bomber. Start avoiding getting them in your side: turn into them or away from them and make them miss, take longer routes or that they fire so close the torps are it armed yet.

- once aircraft drop torps, switch AA to the next squadron with ctrl

- get upgrades to increase secondary artillery range, most effective on killing DDs when you sail away from them and have secondary accuracy and range modules and a captain skills. Be sure secondary artillery is aimed primarily at the DD with ctrl clicking on the unit (literally on screen, like with air)

- as a BB normally only engage a DD below 8km, above you will miss too much, better to aim for cruisers and BB, particularly at 10-14km. You can try up to 10 though and get really lucky. Wouldn't be the first time someone one shot a DD at 12km.

- be unpredictable and make sure you got space to turn. So if you go narrows, pick one with a turning option and a quick crossing into open water.

- like with all ships, try to avoid being in range of more than two ships. Many bb can handle up to three if you avoid well, use your secondaries and they don't get lucky citadel hits while you do, but it isn't recommended. If you close in, try to not be the only target on your team that is easy for them to hit.

- Turning into or away from torpedoes often allows you to pass through them completely unscathed, depends on distance (further away is wider gap), angle and spread (narrow, wide DD or normal, automatic or panicking torp air).

- always expect to be a target, especially when you are in a duel

 

 

Look at WoWS more like gladiatorial combat: you got the heavy armour, low-ish accuracy (slow shells), extreme potential damage (50K in one salvo is possible with random luck), damage soaking and recovering, high potential salvo roll, slow reload, slow to turn. Then you got agile, peppering high accuracy low damage high rate of fire guns, then you got the torp / gun combinations with lichter armour, more speed, agile, ambush / hit and run cruisers (both cruiser types like to play dodge the enemy shells at maximum range and hunt the destroyers), then you get the glass cannon speedboat, hide, spot, hit and run ambushers and the brooding and planning trap and harassment carriers in the back. Each player is designed to be an equal to others, but using completely different tools and methods. Or combinations thereof.

[J_Fuller]

harleaquin

Battleship is BB not BS, because that would be bs ;)

A destroyer is DD... I only say this because you should know the difference, and now you know ;)

 

There are a few things that are likely to happen on this forum... A new player crying over torps and DD's because he gets killed in a few games by them.

Figment being fustrated because said new player wont look at the 20-30 tocis on the matter, befor starting a new.

Wischmob_von_Eimer trolling, because he and Figment have a disagrement...

 

Now, you can in a BB kill a DD with a single salvo, if you are lucky/good you can do it with a single shoot... This makes perfect sense, since a BB's gun carries a rather hefty punch, however most of the time, the BB's big gun shoots AP rounds (because that round is the best), and the AP shell overpenetrats the small DD leaving the DD fit for combat.

In the real world, a Torpedo is made with the specifik purposes of destroying ships and in particular BB's... It so happen, that some ships are so big that you need to hit with 2-3 torps to secure a kill (torp defence like the armourd bulk not taken into account) so you should really be able to make a kill with 1 maybe 2 torps... You should, but most of the time you cant,... And that is fine, it is game balance...

I say this so that you can hopefully see how how weird your comment is on that subjekt.

 

Regarding the BB's role: A BB is a main battleline ship (from the time where such a thing existed), the job is to be the force that both deffend the main battleforce and attack the opponent... Your tactic should be to stay with the other BB's so that your combined fire will be that much greater... enemy planes will be shot out of the air by not 1 ship but 3-4 combined ships AAA, you combined secundarys will destroy DD's alot faster than if you are on your own... and enemy BB's will be hit by the combined main armement of the line.

 

That is the teory... according to real navy tactics from the erra around the first world war (and in part the early part of WW2).

BB's are the line, Crusiers (CC) have two (3) jobs, to scout/form hunter grupps to kill enemy scouts/DD's and to help in the line, should the need ariese (mostly heavy CC with 8" guns)... These are the most flexibel ships.

DD's are the wolfs of the fleet, killers that work together to kill ships of the line, and scouts (lone wolfs)

CV should stay behind the line to get protection and support, they are the true supporters of the line, giving eyes to the force, killing lone ships and when the to lines crash, deliver extra ordnance to the at the weak parts.

 

Now that is all in teory... I have had the pleasure of being part of a line a few times (very rarely), but it mostly does not happen because random teams... But this is the rolle... a single warships is most of the time a dead warship... There have been a few attemps of using a single BB to raid trade lines and the like... but the thing is it has never worked... BB's are to expensiv to go on their own, they are the line, the line that will either attack and destroy every thing, or hold and offer a place where CV and DD/CC can get support...

 

 

[Devantejah]

Torpedoes are easy to avoid with little experience. They only become hard to avoid if they are launched next to your battleship but in which case it's almost always your own fault in my experience. 

 

Just do some small changes to your gameplay and keep away from notorious destroyer areas, don't go too close to islands where destroyers can pop out, launch torpedoes and run away.

 

Don't sail in a straight line all the time, but do some changes in course to throw off their aim and always keep an eye open on the sea and minimap.

 

Don't forget to have room to maneuver!

 

And the spotter plane will also help to spot torpedoes earlier, giving you more time to evade.

 

It's a little harder to avoid torpedoes from a good CV player, but you can reduce the amount of hits taken by keeping the squadrons in front or behind you.

[Exocet6951]

I love all these posts....

 

"Torpedoes are one hit kill weapons!!!"

Really? That's my experience too, if you forget to count the 17 other aerial torpedoes you need to sunk into a BB to sink it if you don't have enough TBs to sink it on the first flyout.

 

Oh but DD torpedoes are stronger, so you only need to hit 7 times or so on an equal tier BB.

 

 

Notice how I'm focusing on BBs.

That's because it's always the BB jockeys crying about torpedoes.

Because having a counter is apparently unacceptable. Even if the counter-class has to get really close without being spotted, brave a hail of defensive fire from secondaries, turn around, try to anticipate how the gentleman will react, and if you're lucky, remove anywhere from 66 to 50% of his HP. HP that he can get back with a handy little magic potion.

 

 

Good thing WG doesn't listen to player's whines and demand for nerfs, otherwise battles would consist in 7 BBs per side having a sniping match while 3 or so sadists in CAs ran around being helpless, and maybe, just maybe someone drunk enough to have picked a DD.

 

 

As for you, Wischmob, still salty about having all your arguments to nerf an entire class based on torpedoes when the only reason they are used in high tier currently is to fast cap while abusing the smoke screens and poor armor models with their fast firing peashooters?