Just give up on IJN torpedo boats?

[royaltar]

I am grinding towards Shimakaze on one of my accounts and feel really bad about IJN torpedo boats in recent meta.

1. BBs stay far from frontline and most of them learnt to change course and speed by now when they push in. Your damage output is pathetic because all they have to do is turn, while you can have constant output with guns.

2. Way too many cruisers have radars now. You are always on the run, smoke is useless.

3. CV can permaspot whatever you do (IJN DDs have no AA). Again, you are always on the run, if you sit in smoke with AA off then you are torped, shot in smoke and die.

4. You can not win any gunfight. You rely on friendly cruiser who are deleted by BBs if they come to help you.

5. Submarines can also ping smoke. 

6. Torpedoes can be detected from 1.7km which is ridiculously huge.

7. Challenging caps is very situational because of 2,3,4,5. If i do not go for cap then BB captains complain and give negative feedback at the end.

 

I don't see how IJN torpedo DDs can have any realistic counterplay against radar cruisers, CVs and sonars. 

Should i just give up on this line? I still have some fun at t3-t7 but t8 and above is suicidal. Gunboats are good, but stats shows that torpedo line slipped to bottom of WR and damage.

Should WG give homing torpedoes for t8-t10 (not historically realistic but who cares)? I do not see they ever stop radar through island or make air detectability smaller.

 

 

[Yedwy]

Your only issues with a ijn torp dd are cvs and gunboat dds that can overtake you and gun you down...

 

As for the BBs zig zaging I suggest you try out faster shorter ranged fish with better concealment and not swich to and from the guns at all (keep the torps selected all the time unless you really need to shoot the guns) so they dont get the PT warning... 

[DFens_666]

1. You can always try to predict movement of the enemy and throw torps accordingly. Especially since you have more than 1 launcher, you can cover a larger area with torps. Devstriking BBs while throwing all torps on one spot is not something you can always achieve. Sometimes yes, most of the time not. Its hard to get away from that mentality, but couple of torp hits is not bad either.

 

2. Well, thats not really true. Just dont smoke up and sit still, while Radar Cruisers move up on you unspotted. Best thing is to just learn the positions where Radar ships usually sit, or better yet, start playing Radar ships yourself to see the disadvantages (if you havent done that)

 

3. True, CVs are horribly broken against DDs. Luckily, your average CV player struggles with even finding DDs. Dont make it too obivous which way you are going

 

4. You can outspot almost all other DDs. And if enemy DD is hurt, you definetely can finish him. IJN HE is no joke, it hurts much more than others.

 

5. I worry about subs when they enter randoms - the day i definetely quit WoWs (especially what they have done now in the last version...)

 

6. You have to ignore that. Capping against all those above is still possible, you need to know how to do it tho.

 

7. Is that different from any other DD? Most other DDs have worse air detection (easier to hit by CV). Radar is good against all DDs, except you are an open water gunboat then it doesnt matter as much. Being in hydro range is the worst thing that can happen. That means you fucked up hard.

 

8. Literally worst DD players play Shima because has 20km torps... And oldest line so most people have it aswell, naturally, it has bad stats. Shima can be strong if played right - most people cant do it tho. YOu have to decide yourself if you are able to do it. Like 90% of shima players on my team dont even have SE

 

9. Please no... Subs with homing torps are horrendously broken, DDs with homing torps would be even worse. And radar will never be LoS, WG tested it and luckily they didnt go through with it. It causes more problems than it would solve.

 

[Ronchabale]

I have been playing them around mid tier a lot lately

 

Tier 6 its the Hatsuharu that does best Fubuki not so good

Tier 7 both Shiratsuyu (smoke) and Akatzuki doo well (The Yudachi is crap)

Tier 8 I mostly played the Akizuki, winrate is good tho  (and of course the Asashio and [edited]black with torp accelleration always delivers)

 

[MrWastee]

being teamed up a lot with cv's lately, them being quite some time busy elsewhere (thx 4 the occasional fighter inbetween though ), and looking at my stats on ijn torboats lately... yep, benham is one (gearing with LM as well)... i gotta say u might have to adapt....

27 minutes ago, royaltar said:

I am grinding towards Shimakaze on one of my accounts and feel really bad about IJN torpedo boats in recent meta.

1. BBs stay far from frontline and most of them learnt to change course and speed by now when they push in. Your damage output is pathetic because all they have to do is turn, while you can have constant output with guns.

nothing new

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2. Way too many cruisers have radars now. You are always on the run, smoke is useless.

play the minimap and the environment! u outspot any radarcruiser. go parallel to caps, not straight in. so u get the window of opportunity to run. use smoke wisely, concentrate on spotting 1st off and only use smoke to run or to finish wounded ships and best be in front against advancing ships, as that caters ur torprange

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3. CV can permaspot whatever you do (IJN DDs have no AA). Again, you are always on the run, if you sit in smoke with AA off then you are torped, shot in smoke and die.

don't get spotted in the 1st place. don't go straight on start, keep distance to other ships that might get attacked and spare ur speedboost to have that bit more speed to not get spotted by a 100m.... and fgs, turn AA off... +ofc keep moving in smoke so u have the motion for a chance to dodge torps

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4. You can not win any gunfight. You rely on friendly cruiser who are deleted by BBs if they come to help you.

matter of smokemanagement, opponent and luck. gunned down a gearing once in asashio, it's all possible. support cc's with spotting and smoke and may u have ur living support

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5. Submarines can also ping smoke. 

subs are not in client yet

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6. Torpedoes can be detected from 1.7km which is ridiculously huge.

eeerm.... shima?! 20km longlances ?!?!.... don't! ever!!.... take the 12km's or even the shorter ones (for pros lol)

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7. Challenging caps is very situational because of 2,3,4,5. If i do not go for cap then BB captains complain and give negative feedback at the end.

who's on the helm of ur ship? them or u?! and, as u said before, most bb captns have no clue anyway, so follow their orders?!.... play halfway smart and u'll benefit more than from hollow hot air from bb captns!

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I don't see how IJN torpedo DDs can have any realistic counterplay against radar cruisers, CVs and sonars. 

Should i just give up on this line? I still have some fun at t3-t7 but t8 and above is suicidal. Gunboats are good, but stats shows that torpedo line slipped to bottom of WR and damage.

Should WG give homing torpedoes for t8-t10 (not historically realistic but who cares)? I do not see they ever stop radar through island or make air detectability smaller.

 

 

.... had fun the last 3 weeks on ijn/torpboats

Asashio	VIII	16	56.25% Great	1 904 Great	78 196	1.38	0
Asashio B	VIII	16	75% Super Unicum	2 625 Super Unicum	99 534	1.63	0
Benham	IX	13	76.92% Super Unicum	2 189 Unicum	74 431	1.54	0.46

 

 

Shimakaze

X

11

63.64% Unicum

1 674 Very Good

53 560

1

1.73

 

 

Yūdachi

VII

4

25% Bad

1 527 Good

45 905

1

0

 

 

Shinonome

VI

2

100% Super Unicum

2 804 Super Unicum

62 653

1

0

 

 

Gearing

X

9

44.44% Bad

1 383 Good

52 747

0.67

2.22

 

 

.... worked mostly for me. gl dude

[hellhound666]

 

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, royaltar said:

I am grinding towards Shimakaze on one of my accounts and feel really bad about IJN torpedo boats in recent meta.

...

just out of the curiosity - how many different accounts you have and why?

[loppantorkel]

IJN dds are in no worse place than most other dds imo.

[Lieut_Gruber]

Well, if you want to torp BBs, go Pan Asia line. I just got T8, and the deepwater torps are awesome. Spotted from 700m, no way to dodge those.

 

And dont fight for caps in IJN torpboats. You can try to stealthcap, but if it gets blocked, just leave and go sink stuff.

[Perekotypole]

Vor 6 Minuten, Lieut_Gruber sagte:

Well, if you want to torp BBs, go Pan Asia line. I just got T8, and the deepwater torps are awesome. Spotted from 700m, no way to dodge those.

 

And dont fight for caps in IJN torpboats. You can try to stealthcap, but if it gets blocked, just leave and go sink stuff.

why would IJN DDs bad at capping? In cap it comes mostly to whose team can deal most damage to enemy DD in a short time when DDs spot each other. And low concealment comes very handy. Yes capping alone on remote cap (like mid one, when all the team goes left and right) is asking for trouble, but otherwise... If you play it right you can leverage 300 meters of better spotting into 7-10 seconds, that enemy DD is spotted and you are not.

[MrWastee]

27 minutes ago, Ronchabale said:

[...]  (and of course the Asashio and [edited]black with torp accelleration always delivers)

 

 

[royaltar]

19 minutes ago, hellhound666 said:

just out of the curiosity - how many different accounts you have and why?

When i started playing i did not want to spend money to buy slots so i opened an account for each line (which makes grinding for resources more challenging as i have less ships). I have:

1. IJN+PanAsia

2. US

3. KM

4. RU+Europe

5. RN+Commonwealth

6. FR+ITA

Does not make much sense i might admit :D

 

But it makes lines more manageable to me and easy to decide which playstyle i want for a day.

26 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

being teamed up a lot with cv's lately, them being quite some time busy elsewhere (thx 4 the occasional fighter inbetween though ), and looking at my stats on ijn torboats lately... yep, benham is one (gearing with LM as well)

Asashio	VIII	16	56.25% Great	1 904 Great	78 196	1.38	0
Asashio B	VIII	16	75% Super Unicum	2 625 Super Unicum	99 534	1.63	0

.... worked mostly for me. gl dude

I also like Asashio, pretty fun ship. But her longer range makes easier to disengage from radar (though i like the guns and gun down any injured DDs so i prefer stay close to targets)

 

 

20 minutes ago, Lieut_Gruber said:

Well, if you want to torp BBs, go Pan Asia line. I just got T8, and the deepwater torps are awesome. Spotted from 700m, no way to dodge those.

 

And dont fight for caps in IJN torpboats. You can try to stealthcap, but if it gets blocked, just leave and go sink stuff.

 

I became a bit depressed when i do not rush in and die then my mother is called on different names and i am considered as a coward. Therefore i rush in and die. 

But i take your advice.

 

go parallel to caps, not straight in. 

Also a good advise. I will do that more often then. 

 

 

[MrWastee]

15 minutes ago, royaltar said:

[...]

I also like Asashio, pretty fun ship. But her longer range makes easier to disengage from radar (though i like the guns and gun down any injured DDs so i prefer stay close to targets)

[...]

 

i run it with torp acceleration, so 16km. gearing can use 16.5km. 12km not makes it easier necessarily, but it's still more than enough to put pressure up. dd play is a lot about psychologics. u can herd actually, like a shepperd. trick is not to become the sheep ;).... so, quite some radar cruisers u can bait by letting them know that u're there. drag them out, make em targets for others, bait their radar/run/come back torp em and so on....

 

edit:

oh, and ofc asashio got more range, simply due to having it's prey usually in the 2nd to 3rd line and the danger that the torps get spotted in the 1st or 2nd line. on the other hand it sometimes even comes in handy it only can torp bb's and cv's, as that determines where to go (ofc to where the most targets for the torps are).

[royaltar]

11 minutes ago, Perekotypole said:

why would IJN DDs bad at capping? In cap it comes mostly to whose team can deal most damage to enemy DD in a short time when DDs spot each other. And low concealment comes very handy. Yes capping alone on remote cap (like mid one, when all the team goes left and right) is asking for trouble, but otherwise... If you play it right you can leverage 300 meters of better spotting into 7-10 seconds, that enemy DD is spotted and you are not.

I completely agree, this is what i said - but the IJN concealment is irrelevant with radar and CV, so you have 33% only to select a cap where there is no radar and no CV for 2 mins. Therefore you rely on your teammates to chase away enemy DDs.

But especially Russian BBs can delete cruisers instantly (which makes me angry because the point nerfing IJN DDs was to prevent devastating strikes) so unless your team's BBs also support you to keep enemy BBs at bay, there is little chance you can successfully challange the cap alone. But PA, US, RN DDs have enough gunpower unlike you (even if i use IJN DD guns when it makes sense)

[tsounts]

I keep enjoying my IJN dds all the way and I can't understand why people complain about Shima, she's a great ship.

[aboomination]

I had a great time grinding the Shima line last year.

[Lieut_Gruber]

23 minutes ago, Perekotypole said:

why would IJN DDs bad at capping? In cap it comes mostly to whose team can deal most damage to enemy DD in a short time when DDs spot each other. And low concealment comes very handy. Yes capping alone on remote cap (like mid one, when all the team goes left and right) is asking for trouble, but otherwise... If you play it right you can leverage 300 meters of better spotting into 7-10 seconds, that enemy DD is spotted and you are not.

If that enemy DD patiently waits for you to spot it, sure you can do it like that. If the enemy gunboat comes in agressive, you are doomed. Sure, you can hope for your team to kill it, but 9 out of 10 you end up dead also.

[GraySlayer]

Whattt are you mad?

 

IJN are amazing boats. Period.

 

BUT

 

As with all things you need to know what you're doing and I mean really know what you're doing to get the best out of them.  Most of mine are well above 60%Wr with good PRs on them. Nothing wrong with IJN DDs

 

Now yes granted it IS hard to play DDs in the current meta but I view it as more of a challenge than hard.  To help you play you need to understand a lot of things here:

 

1. Know your detect range inside out and the enemy DDs, do you outspot them?

2. Know your plane detect range

3. Have AA turned off at all times unless you are really spotted and then only turn it on until planes go away. AA is useless for the most part on most ships apart from WORC and a couple of others. On a DD forget it and the AA builds too.

4. At match start IF there is a cv, WAIT, be patient. Watch to see where his planes go. Ignore your teammates if they start complaining in chat. You are better off to them alive than dead. 

5. Once you have established the relative position of the cv and his plane lanes STAY AWAY from them and him as best you can.

6. Do not try to cap an objective that is being perma spotted by planes

7. If you do get spotted and he perma spots you drop smoke and sit, be patient, he will get bored and go away. Then change your position so he can't come back and find you again

8. Don't go around shooting your guns, stay undetected 99% of the time, For the most part you have the best stealth USE IT.

9. Do NOT allow yourself to be detected if you don't need to EVER. Let them guess where you are. See point about not shooting your guns unless needed.

 

The caveat to this is 

 

A: If you are in a close knife fight with another dd you're spotted anyway so shoot him as you run away 

B: You're in a knife fight with support and he has support, don't shoot, let him shoot while you run. he will stay lit up for your teammates to shoot while you drop off detection. drop smoke as you run if you're taking fire and lots of it

C: You're a gun boat IJN in which case this is different but even then don't pick fights when the other dd has close cruiser support as you'll get raped. Pick your battles, pick your fights, stay alive

 

As for radar have a sheet with all ships that carry it and their range and cooldown. Note at game start how many they have. Be patient, see where they go. Play around them dipping into and out of their radar ranges. Don't get too close to them if you don't have cover. Have an escape plan in mind.

 

 

Playing DDs takes high levels of skill. You have to think about all of the above and a whole lot more besides. It is challenging but as a player you can master them if you take the time to learn all the nuances of the play style and your ships..

 

All of my points above are fluid. They change all the time and you have to adapt to the changes constantly. The battlefield changes all the time. You MUST adapt to it. 

 

These are your must do jobs.

 

Spotting. If you don't spot your team will not have targets

Capping. You must cap but only at the right time, not capping LOSES games..

Staying alive. Be patient and stay alive

Damage. Do damage to your primary target which is BBs with your torps

Delay. An enemy won't push a flank if they know you are there, or they will but slowly. Delay them

 

 

I could write about a whole lot more that I think about when playing IJN but I would need to write a short novel to cover it all. Watch videos on all the boats you do play to gain tips about positioning and builds etc

 

One final thing. Pick ONE ship you love and ONLY play it until you are a master. You CANNOT become a master if you keep chopping and changing as each ship has its own nuances to learn and when you're learning the basics it's just to much for you to grasp. Master one ship and don't move on until you have.

 

 

 

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, Lieut_Gruber said:

If that enemy DD patiently waits for you to spot it, sure you can do it like that. If the enemy gunboat comes in agressive, you are doomed. Sure, you can hope for your team to kill it, but 9 out of 10 you end up dead also.

 

Well, unless its a German or Radar DD you can always smoke up while running away if he catches you. If you smoke at the right place, your team might keep vision of him so you can start shooting yourself aswell.

[loppantorkel]

Yea, I find shima much more versatile than most other dds in this meta. The main benefits being stealth, ability to do damage, speed and a slim profile increasing survivability.

I've been playing Z-52 a lot since I got it and while it's great at cap contesting and making dd life miserable, cap contesting sometimes need to be delayed due to radars and planes. Other dds, such as shima, are just better in most other roles. I'm sure I can improve in Z-52 but so far I've been more reliant on my teams while playing it and haven't been able to do enough to turn the battles around.

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, royaltar said:

I am grinding towards Shimakaze on one of my accounts and feel really bad about IJN torpedo boats in recent meta.

1. BBs stay far from frontline and most of them learnt to change course and speed by now when they push in. Your damage output is pathetic because all they have to do is turn, while you can have constant output with guns.

2. Way too many cruisers have radars now. You are always on the run, smoke is useless.

3. CV can permaspot whatever you do (IJN DDs have no AA). Again, you are always on the run, if you sit in smoke with AA off then you are torped, shot in smoke and die.

4. You can not win any gunfight. You rely on friendly cruiser who are deleted by BBs if they come to help you.

5. Submarines can also ping smoke. 

6. Torpedoes can be detected from 1.7km which is ridiculously huge.

7. Challenging caps is very situational because of 2,3,4,5. If i do not go for cap then BB captains complain and give negative feedback at the end.

 

I don't see how IJN torpedo DDs can have any realistic counterplay against radar cruisers, CVs and sonars. 

Should i just give up on this line? I still have some fun at t3-t7 but t8 and above is suicidal. Gunboats are good, but stats shows that torpedo line slipped to bottom of WR and damage.

Should WG give homing torpedoes for t8-t10 (not historically realistic but who cares)? I do not see they ever stop radar through island or make air detectability smaller.

 

 

• Do not grind, play
• learn to anticipate enemies actions
• watch out for radar, that keeps you from running, smoke works in a lot of other situations, but feel free to take the reload booster where possible
• learn to evade planes and use other ships AA for support
• learn when to gunfight and when to better disengage
• there are no submarines in game
• you usually have a spotting advantage at caps, use it.

[Lootboxer]

30 minutes ago, Lieut_Gruber said:

f that enemy DD patiently waits for you to spot it, sure you can do it like that. If the enemy gunboat comes in agressive, you are doomed. Sure, you can hope for your team to kill it, but 9 out of 10 you end up dead also.

If he goes yolo like this he is doomed.Ping him and yours support should kill him unless you went without support or overextended, then it was your fault.

If you played smart you can smoke and his gun bloom should keep him spotted by you team mates so even you can open fire safetly and IJN HE hits hard.

46 minutes ago, royaltar said:

became a bit depressed when i do not rush in and die then my mother is called on different names and i am considered as a coward. Therefore i rush in and die. 

But i take your advice.

 

go parallel to caps, not straight in. 

Also a good advise. I will do that more often then. 

Unless you are border hugging 20km shima, do not bother by the others too much, spot for them and they will be ok. DO NOT YOLO DIE!!!

Do not go parallel, random torpedo can finish you, safest way is to go straight in but in reverse, close to island. If something goes bad you can speedboost away behind the land cover fast or smoke (depending on what spotted you Cv, DD, or radar).

[Voirtez]

tbh with the crappy detection of IJN torps, poor agility compared to usn and uk dd's, crappy AA theres really little point to IJN torp boats

 

especially when we now have benham and somers that are far better torp boats..

 

Ive never liked the IJN torp boat line as they were a bit one trick pony, when they improved the HE alpha it made the line slightly better but they just cant hold a light to UNS dd's 

i mean they dont even come close.

 

theres just too many things that go against them and with cvs, a shima trying to stealth torp just doesnt work like it did.

 

get yourself a somers and be happy.

 

[GraySlayer]

17 minutes ago, R3V0 said:

tbh with the crappy detection of IJN torps, poor agility compared to usn and uk dd's, crappy AA theres really little point to IJN torp boats

 

especially when we now have benham and somers that are far better torp boats..

 

Ive never liked the IJN torp boat line as they were a bit one trick pony, when they improved the HE alpha it made the line slightly better but they just cant hold a light to UNS dd's 

i mean they dont even come close.

 

theres just too many things that go against them and with cvs, a shima trying to stealth torp just doesnt work like it did.

 

get yourself a somers and be happy.

 

 

If only I had the steel..

[Voirtez]

Easier than you may think, with ranked and the Xmas snowflakes and 25% coupon it’s quite achievable to get a steel ship if you don’t get tempted to blow it on cheaper crap like flint and nietroshimy etc

[ShinGetsu]

Radar cruisers are overall more dangerous to gunboat and cap contester than the IJN torpedo line. You should stay out of range and mostly never sail close to their hunting spot. On the opposite actually, you should find the line of sight to torpedo the usual radar cruiser spots. It works very well, they are usually mostly static, and that wins game far more easily than farming the braindead BB.