12x12 clan brawl - feedback topic

[ForlornSailor]

So this evening we had clan brawl in 12vs12 format.

Whom of you participated? Which clans were able to field 12 guys? How was the gameplay? Did you guys have to wait long for a match? And what you think about the rewards?

 

As for us: Was clear pretty fast, that we cant field 12 guys on a saturday evening and so close to new year. So we ignored it. I think the rewards are laughable tho. To be precise: maybe not the reward itself but the need to win 15 games to get them all. Is this some kind of new policy? That only 0,01% of the players should even have a chance to get the highest rewards (coughPRcough)? Doesnt seem motivating to me. 3/3/3 wins for each stage would have been enough - actually 9 wins on one clanbattle evening is quite a benchmark aswell. But 15...

[HMS_Kilinowski]

Our clan could not participate. We currently have 25 players, some are on a hiatus, others had work/private business. From my earlier experiences in a full 50 player clan I can say even they struggle to find players for a 8v8 format, not to speak of 12v12.

 

I do agree with @ForlornSailor in that the rewards are ill-designed. They were somewhat suited for 3v3 or 4v4 formats. Those smaller brawls didn't last longer than 10 min, sometimes less than 5 min. Assuming a 50% winrate, a clan would need 30 battles to get all rewards. So average clans would need to spam battles, while good clans would get it easily.

The 12v12 format takes considerably longer. Also individual player quality has less of an impact. On 3v3 my clan saw winrates of 90%. In 7v7 maybe 55-60%. On 12v12? And since the requirements for 12 players are so high, it is likely many clans needed to take breaks to fill all spots in the division as not many players have 4 hours straight on a saturday evening. So it's highly unlikely that players get the rewards and if so, they do because there is no rotation in players and quality is extremely high.

[GulvkluderGuld]

Heroz has almost 50 members, but we cant even field 8 players to do CB (the ambitious players go in the ambitious sister clans).

 

So: Ignored the event.

 

I thought clan brawls was meant as a stepping stone for smaller clans toward CBs.

Unless WG changed policy, this event show once again they are completely out of touch with their player base.

 

On the other hand, 4v4 clan brawl during holidays was great since we had an easy time gathering players for that.

Screw the rewards, we finally got to play competitive and went on an epic winstreak.

[El2aZeR]

We were able to scrape together 12 people just barely. We played 10 matches, won 8. Everything about that has already been said above.

 

Gameplay was a complete show from my perspective. CVs make DDs practically obsolete with far better spotting capability and reaction times. We didn't even bother taking one with us as Smolensk substitutes as a smoking vessel and ofc synergizes with CV spotting quite nicely. Everything else that isn't sitting in smoke trying to hold down a position can get farmed by CV or other ships unless ridiculous amounts of AA is amassed which inherently gives up map control. Initial spotting within the first minute also turned out to be quite devastating in quite a few matches as we caught ships broadside trying to reach positions.

There were also still a lot of CVs trying to do dumb fighter interception. Like really, I thought it's common knowledge by now that fighters aren't fighters but spotters? Needless to say it was a minor annoyance at best.

On a sidenote, we encountered one team that didn't bring a CV. I bet they regretted that. The amount of Grozos I saw thinking that their AA is still worth something was quite sad, too. 

 

If this shows anything it's that CVs should stay out of CBs and competitive indefinitely. Even if the spotting change goes through, which would essentially make the sole purpose of CVs to grief everyone else, the concept of being capable of attacking people at will aka the core design of the rework itself is just outright toxic for gameplay just as it is in randoms. In fact the entire affair felt barely any different to a random battle from a CV perspective as even with requests for spotting or priority target callouts, which I will usually try to preempt just like in randoms anyway, there is just THIS little interaction between you, your teammates and your opponents. I felt far more part of a team and actual pressure from the enemy playing RTS in competitive.

If the rework was somehow meant to solve any of this it has once again failed spectacularly.

[aboomination]

Wish my clan had the capacity of active players to participate in this.

[GarrusBrutus]

CBs with CVs in a nutshell:

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/TenderInspiringHummingbirdCurseLit

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/AltruisticSwissOryxTBCheesePull

[Bear__Necessities]

NA is more active @ForlornSailor but only due to large clans due to smaller server. So most competitive players are all bunched in clans that can field teams. Not so good for EU as we have more clans but less members in them. 
 

Maybe we in EU need to adopt the same strategy. Mid size clans find like minded clans and buddy up.

[The_Blackrage]

8 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

NA is more active @ForlornSailor but only due to large clans due to smaller server. So most competitive players are all bunched in clans that can field teams. Not so good for EU as we have more clans but less members in them. 
 

Maybe we in EU need to adopt the same strategy. Mid size clans find like minded clans and buddy up.

Maybe another Option can be  used for this problem.

 

How to make another clan an Allied Partner for 1 CB season.

 

So smaller clans can move togehter and plax CB with deleting their clans.

 

To prevend Abuse, set a limit of 1  Allied for 1 season.

 

 

[Bear__Necessities]

1 minute ago, The_Blackrage said:

Maybe another Option can be  used for this problem.

 

How to make another clan an Allied Partner for 1 CB season.

 

So smaller clans can move togehter and plax CB with deleting their clans.

 

To prevend Abuse, set a limit of 1  Allied for 1 season.

 

 

@MrConway the above idea actually sounds good. Can you please feedback how hard it is to get clans active. Especially when stuff like CB’s and Clan Brawls are in holiday times.

[Aeliyah_Thord]

Too hard to field that many players. Just weren't enough online, but gj you guys that managed.

[Yedwy]

We couldnt find 12 players, nearly got there but still one short...

 

As for clan sizes and related...

Leader (clan commander/owner) of the clan decides what kind of clan he/she wants and hence what kind of players they invite and retain... IE if one wants a competitive clan (ie to field teams for different events on regular basis, it doesnt imply they need to chase the kots title at the next tournament) and you have say - a bunch of people that are not interested in the game (anymore) you talk to them and if you want to stay friendly have them move in a subsidiary casual clan or if not just kick them out AND RECRUIT NEW PLAYERS THAT ARE INTERESTED IN GAME instead of keeping them around for "old times sake" although they play once every blue moon, its something I tend to observe quite a lot of late... Additionally we in EU due to our historic dis-cohesion and other factors (such as language differences etc) are in a harder spot to form big non national/regional clans then US, RU or SEA regions and hence will ever be "more clans with less members"

[Captain_Singleton]

we managed 8 battles, won 5 of them, but it wasn't easy, it took a bit of poking with a sharp stick ;) including one on a mobile connection from his ship out at sea...

[a_p_u_l_e_i_u_s]

3 vs 3 vas fun (and good idea). 12 vs 12, 8 vs 8 = bs**t

 

just go back to first format

[Gebe_]

Impossible to get that many players, especially when CVs are allowed. Even getting a 4 man team was hard cause most players don't want to take part in the dung-show that is "competitive with CVs".

[fumtu]

We managed to get 12 player, we even had one spare which proved to be very useful but we were able to start only at 20:00. Till the end of brawl we played 13 games, only loss to TWA which was the only team we met without a single DD. Also only one team didn't have a CV and they didn't have any chance. It was kinda strange to see so many clan members in one battle, basically a Random game with team composed from just one clan. All in all it was fun, but I guess that lot of clans couldn't provide that many players. We didn't have any issues with queue, getting in the next game relatively fast. 

 

I totally agree with @El2aZeR in his assessment about CV. I don't think that CV should be allowed in competitive gameplay, in this state at least. Having a good CV player proved to be so much advantage over those teams  without one. Getting focused by CV in a DD wasn't fun and it quite limits its usefulness to team, trust me I know as I played one. Ships in strong positions or ships that try to go dark or in cover to heal were easily dealt thanks to CV. And some members of my clan, me among them, are seriously considering not playing next cbs at all if WG allow CVs in them. If they were this influential in 12 vs 12 format, they would be even more in 7 vs 7 or 8 vs 8 or whatever new team setup WG came up.

[Allied_Winter]

Well since we didn't even field enough players to make it for the 8v8 ... guess what happened to the 12v12.

 

So I'll leave it at that. Can not comment on any further points.

[Bics93]

8 ore fa, ForlornSailor ha scritto:

Was clear pretty fast, that we cant field 12 guys on a saturday evening and so close to new year. 

 

Clan brawls seem a nice idea, expecially if played with ships different from tier 10, but only one day and always on saturday it’s too limiting.

[Altsak]

We did (or ... I did) a rather extensive marketing campaign during the week about the clanbrawl and we managed to field 12 people. In the end we even had some extras to boot.

 

Pros:

-It was extremely fun.

-I loved the social aspect of bringing 12 players together

-Being a caller in a 12 player game was easier than I thought. Even more easy than try to call a normal 7v7 CB game. Not sure why tbh.

-We had instant matches. No waiting in the queue

 

Cons:

-Fielding 12 people is tough

-Carriers were mandatory, Our carrier player was very reluctant to play his carrier but in the end forced to play almost every single game as a carrier. Not fun

-Carriers destroyed any and all tactical aspects of the game with their omnipresent spotting

-DD apocalypse due to CVs. We brought one Somers for the long range torps. Red DDs were slaughtered.

 

Neutral

-WG please no CVs to competitive

-Ban carriers from clan games

-Did I say no CVs in CBs?

 

[DFens_666]

19 minutes ago, Bics93 said:

always on saturday

 

This.. so much this... i basicly cant participate ever because its always [edited]saturday

[Afghanicus]

I'm 100% sure WG knew that requiring more players for Clan Battles results in significantly less engagement.

 

So pushing 12 vs 12 was so stupid that I cannot grasp that decision no matter what.

 

Not that I care that much but when I saw it announced I thought it's a joke. A very bad one. 

[fumtu]

21 minutes ago, Palubarac said:

I'm 100% sure WG knew that requiring more players for Clan Battles results in significantly less engagement.

 

So pushing 12 vs 12 was so stupid that I cannot grasp that decision no matter what.

 

Not that I care that much but when I saw it announced I thought it's a joke. A very bad one. 

 

It is probably just a test, to see how many clans could field large team, how much impact CVs have in cbs and is there any chance to include them in the next cbs. It is much easier to do test in clan brawls then during the cbs season.

[Cyclops_]

No chance with our clan size with most casual players  and those that play on a daily basis, would prefer 4x4 or 5v5   @MrConway

[GraySlayer]

9 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

We were able to scrape together 12 people just barely. We played 10 matches, won 8. Everything about that has already been said above.

 

Gameplay was a complete show from my perspective. CVs make DDs practically obsolete with far better spotting capability and reaction times. We didn't even bother taking one with us as Smolensk substitutes as a smoking vessel and ofc synergizes with CV spotting quite nicely. Everything else that isn't sitting in smoke trying to hold down a position can get farmed by CV or other ships unless ridiculous amounts of AA is amassed which inherently gives up map control. Initial spotting within the first minute also turned out to be quite devastating in quite a few matches as we caught ships broadside trying to reach positions.

There were also still a lot of CVs trying to do dumb fighter interception. Like really, I thought it's common knowledge by now that fighters aren't fighters but spotters? Needless to say it was a minor annoyance at best.

On a sidenote, we encountered one team that didn't bring a CV. I bet they regretted that. The amount of Grozos I saw thinking that their AA is still worth something was quite sad, too. 

 

If this shows anything it's that CVs should stay out of CBs and competitive indefinitely. Even if the spotting change goes through, which would essentially make the sole purpose of CVs to grief everyone else, the concept of being capable of attacking people at will aka the core design of the rework itself is just outright toxic for gameplay just as it is in randoms. In fact the entire affair felt barely any different to a random battle from a CV perspective as even with requests for spotting or priority target callouts, which I will usually try to preempt just like in randoms anyway, there is just THIS little interaction between you, your teammates and your opponents. I felt far more part of a team and actual pressure from the enemy playing RTS in competitive.

If the rework was somehow meant to solve any of this it has once again failed spectacularly.

 

I live for your analyses, I don't much need to read anything else if I want to get a grasp of a concept re this game LOL.

[HaachamaShipping]

3 hours ago, Altsak said:

-Carriers were mandatory, Our carrier player was very reluctant to play his carrier but in the end forced to play almost every single game as a carrier. Not fun

After having spent an entire CB season as the designated Stalingrad person, this is the entire reason why I held off from getting a T10 CV. And with how few people play CVs, I'd not be surprised if most clans have issues finding multiple if any good CV players and you get pressured into playing if you are the only one with decent WR on CVs that has time to spare for CBs, given noone wants to waste the insane potential a CV has. Also, because being in such a ship is quite the responsibility, it absolutely sucks having to carry that weight for 4 hours straight, at least it is for me. So, yeah, paradoxically, the inclusion of CVs in CB has made me opt out of CB more, because I would have to play them.

[ForlornSailor]

10 hours ago, The_Blackrage said:

To prevend Abuse, set a limit of 1  Allied for 1 season.

 

Not a bad idea at all !

 

3 hours ago, Altsak said:

-Being a caller in a 12 player game was easier than I thought. Even more easy than try to call a normal 7v7 CB game. Not sure why tbh.

 

Interesting. I was thinking especially about this point, since it would have been my job and it was one of the things, that made me not want to do a 12x12 CW.

 

7 hours ago, Yedwy said:

Leader (clan commander/owner) of the clan decides what kind of clan he/she wants and hence what kind of players they invite and retain... IE if one wants a competitive clan (ie to field teams for different events on regular basis, it doesnt imply they need to chase the kots title at the next tournament) and you have say - a bunch of people that are not interested in the game (anymore) you talk to them and if you want to stay friendly have them move in a subsidiary casual clan or if not just kick them out AND RECRUIT NEW PLAYERS THAT ARE INTERESTED IN GAME instead of keeping them around for "old times sake" although they play once every blue moon, its something I tend to observe quite a lot of late

 

Yea I hear what you are saying but its not that easy either. When I refer to our clan f.e., we describe ourself as semi-competetive but we have certain skill requirements at the same time. Also, most of us are a little bit older (ok, now that sounds like we are some kind of grandpa-clan, we aint that either^^) so everyone of us is involved in a lot of other stuff. So we have ppl that work shifts, work weekends, cant play for certain longer durations at all or cant devote themself for an entire evening 100% to the game to play clanwars. This is really challenging while organizing and results in huge fluctuation in the line up. Also, our almost 50 ppl always struggle to filed 7 guys, at 8 we already failed a lot of time. At the same time, it doesnt help to change the focus while recruiting or replacing those guys, that cant play that much, because, quite frankly, you are not going to find ppl with that skillset (that would want to join us - another aaspect). Im gonna use @DFens_666 here as an example, since I know, he doesnt mind. Id say about 3 out of 4 times he cant participate in clanwars / shipstorm / clanbrawl, since we are always talking saturday evening and he often works that time. So would you kick him from the clan, only because WG decides to restrict the times of those clan activities to specific times that also never change? Guess not ;) Its also something that I would never concider in general for any member.

3 hours ago, Altsak said:

-Carriers were mandatory, Our carrier player was very reluctant to play his carrier but in the end forced to play almost every single game as a carrier. Not fun

-Carriers destroyed any and all tactical aspects of the game with their omnipresent spotting

-DD apocalypse due to CVs. We brought one Somers for the long range torps. Red DDs were slaughtered.

Was to be expected. It was already horrible for the DD in 4x4. At some point he asked me, whats the point of beeing there? And I couldnt really help him out, since I knew he cant do anything. Yet we had to field a DD because of the class restrictions in the 4x4 - else I wouldnt have. Checked some results/youtube/twitch and was wondering, how some clans played with 3 DDs or even field a Daring... You meet a competent CV and you are just useless.