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Fire starting

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[FISHR]
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Hi all,

today I received the Atlanta in a container (YAY!), so I started reading about her and watched about 3 hours of YT videos on how to play her.

Invariably, everyone praises Atlanta's fire starting ability, although the videos and reviews are at least 2 years old, so a lot of things might have changed in the game of which I know nothing...

Anyway, trusting the gurus, off I went, forsaking CE in favour of DE on my 11-point skipper (build attached).

When I reach 19 points I'll add AFT and CE, to increase the range of the guns and bring concealment down to more manageable values.

I preferred PM to PT because I assume that when someone spots an Atlanta they are going to fire at it (I'm a DD main, so I might be biased here), and actually seeing the 5s and 7s that I was invariably seeing made me more nervous than I'd liked.

1637586738_Screenshot2020-01-0402_10_10.thumb.png.d680bdf64e8d1412502ba07ec08f6c5f.png

Apart from the disastrous results I'm having in all battles (23 so far, with only 4 wins and 6 "survived", not to mention abysmal damage dealt values),early on in my misadventure I've have started noticing a trend in the fire starting ability of this ship.

The last game I had was the best one, although a defeat. With my build and the appropriate flags, my fire starting chance is 7%. Yet, out of 300 hits, I only got 3 fires, which, in my book, is 1%. I understand that with the various flags and builds you can reduce the chance of your ship catching fire by 20% or so, but even allowing for a 5% fire chance as a result, that should still have given me 15 fires. Why only 1/5 of what I expected? What am I missing?

Battle results are attached, so you can all tell me I'm a noob (I knownI am, otherwise I wouldn't be asking for clarifications) and possibly explain the arcane art of fire starting in the Atlanta.

Thank you all and good hunting

794297959_Screenshot2020-01-0401_54_59.thumb.png.84cabba0b447535a49436c9a63100169.png1733156355_Screenshot2020-01-0401_55_10.thumb.png.c83963b8eb77121310c0ac62972d646e.png1890874320_Screenshot2020-01-0402_04_58.thumb.png.3b341fec28e626d3a5a57c76167ee9b3.png

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It's called RNG.

 

And it's one reason why you put IFHE in the build so you can actually pen ships and don't have to rely on fires to kill stuff, especially when T8+ cruisers will just laugh at a non-IFHE Atlanta tickling them.

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[BHSFL]
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You got the ( higher ROF ) BFT skill and the DE skill....can't have more fire chance then that except for using specific flags. To set fire you do not have to penetrate, so shattering shells do not matter.

 

But the thing you may be missing is ships that are on fire cannot get another fire in the same place. There are only 4 places a ship can burn :  1 on bow, 1 on stern and 2 in the middle which is the superstructure. With Fire Prevention skill only 1 fire will burn in the middle, so 3 over the ship in total.

 

So if someone else set them on fire you will not get fires on them. At least not in the same place they did. When "close" enough you can actually aim for a place that does not burn yet such as a bow or stern.

 

So do shoot at targets that are not set on fire by someone else and you might get better results. It is also a good idea to get fires on multiple BB going....when one BB is burning, go to the next one and back. Cruisers have more fire resistance and burn shorter then BB btw....you better light up BB....larger and easier to hit anyway.

 

And fire is a Damage Over Time type of damage...it needs time to stack up for nice scores ....for that you need to stay alive long starting fires all over again when they are extinguished and it is a very fragile ship.

 

Last note :  when enemies use Damage Control Party ( to extinguish fires ) there is a short CD ( 5 or 10 sec ) during which they are immune to new fires being started. The more experienced players will probably wait for an incoming HE salvo to use it, so that salvo will not start any fires.

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43 minutes ago, soffici said:

The last game I had was the best one, although a defeat. With my build and the appropriate flags, my fire starting chance is 7%. Yet, out of 300 hits, I only got 3 fires, which, in my book, is 1%. I understand that with the various flags and builds you can reduce the chance of your ship catching fire by 20% or so, but even allowing for a 5% fire chance as a result, that should still have given me 15 fires. Why only 1/5 of what I expected? What am I missing?

 

The build-in Fire Resistance Coefficients, that each ship has. The 7%, that is shown in the port, is thus very misleading. More about it here: https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Fire#Fire_Resistance

There is also an example, which shows, whats left of the fire chance:

image.thumb.png.75bd5547034d4957eed8ebfeb9213639.png

 

Then the cpt build:

47 minutes ago, soffici said:

Invariably, everyone praises Atlanta's fire starting ability, although the videos and reviews are at least 2 years old, so a lot of things might have changed in the game of which I know nothing...

Anyway, trusting the gurus, off I went, forsaking CE in favour of DE on my 11-point skipper (build attached).

When I reach 19 points I'll add AFT and CE, to increase the range of the guns and bring concealment down to more manageable values. 

Ditching CE is ok - if you know what you are doing. About the rest: eeh. Ill go with what @Sleepy_Bunny says: You want IFHE for the direct damage on cruisers. that way, Atlanta can eat cruisers alive and becomes much more influencal (which you were complaining about, losing a lot of games). Here is the thing: you build Atlanta around DE without IFHE: you only farm BBs for DoT and high (but imo useless) damage numbers. You build Atlanta around IFHE, you become a DD/Cruiser killer (not impressive damage numbers but wins). First to ditch ist BFT, especially when you are low on cpt points like you are. And an Atlanta with CE becomes a much better DD hunter - just saying.

 

Another huge flaw in your build: EM. Atlantas turrets turn super fast, you are wasting 2 points there.

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One thing to add, since you mentioned, you watched older videos: BFT (and AFT - although that one is still useful) was highly recommended, because they served as strong AA skills at the same time, which Atlanta profited from, since it had strong AA from the start. Atlanta in RTS CV times used to be an AA-fortress. This is however not the case anymore: neither is the AA anything special nor do the skill add something valuable.

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As someone (relatively) experienced with the ship I can say a few things that might help:

As @Sleepy_Bunny was kind enough to mention earlier, any astute observer will notice your build lacks IFHE. That's a bit of a problem with Atlanta, as its guns do not surpass the 25mm threshold by themselves. Many same-tier battleships have 25mm plating in many areas. This also includes a huge number of cruisers in the game at all tiers. You'll notice a marked increase in damage as you spec this skill. Atlanta has never been a good firestarter for me, but the consistency came in whatever damage I got when I missed the superstructures of ships.

 

Also, Atlanta used to be good but matchmaking "fixes" took care of that. Now that the fixes basically make the matchmaker attempt to make T8 ships top tier (or at least not fighting T10s) more than they used to, this puts ships in T7 in a situation where they are dragged into T9 matchmaking a lot more than they used to. I've had 4 bottom-tier games in a row in a T7 a few days ago, and I thank my lucky stars I was in a Scharnhorst, which punches up quite nicely and is tanky enough to kind of find a sweet spot in its positioning even with all the super powerful ships found in those tiers.

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2 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Here is the thing: you build Atlanta around DE without IFHE: you only farm BBs for DoT and high (but imo useless) damage numbers.

If you aren't bottom tier, the IFHE build should pay off way more in damage on BBs than a non-IFHE build, because you'll get fires anyway. It's a 1% penalty in fire chance due to the caliber. But the pen damage is so much more. You only could hope to get more damage from fires if you were to have multiple BBs and you switch around whom you shoot at to maximise the amount of fires, in which case, that's some of the most useless playstyle there is. And I'd still consider IFHE to net you more damage.

7 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

First to ditch ist BFT, especially when you are low on cpt points like you are. And an Atlanta with CE becomes a much better DD hunter - just saying.

Imo, first to ditch is DE and get IFHE, then get CE. Last get AFT. I would value BFT higher than DE for the same reason I value IFHE. It's reliable and it is versatile. BFT is 11% higher dpm against anything and 11% more fires from more shells. DE is just raising your fire chance by 2%, which with IFHE and signals equals 40% more fires on average, but no increase in pen damage and thus against stuff like DDs and cruisers, it's pretty pointless.

 

Though personally, I just use a Helena captain with DE instead of the AFT, because I can't be bothered to get a dedicated Atlanta captain. And it still works.

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[TAYTO]
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Get this ship set up correctly (you really want 19pt captain on her) and get her into the right position and you'll giggle at the fun you can have.

Until then, pray to the MM gods and good luck :Smile_hiding:

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[NHSOS]
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this is my Atlanta build. with 19skill captain AFT, CE

try the ship in coop to get the feeling of her gun. when u be top xp there for most the games, then go random.

I use https://wowsft.com

image.thumb.png.8e276896af8561e392aa4971ef600516.png

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[RODS]
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The enemy ship is most likely using this skill which works against your fire starting procentage

 

 

DCSM1.jpg.fdd13d8c07ab8a5ea25e7584db680081.jpg

 

Yes, only 5% off your total

but he may also have Fire Prevention commander skill

 

 FP.jpg.54736306df3f6381dacd2832b47c5d87.jpg

 

 

Another 10% of your number of fires started

 

Ok so now you get a fire and he is using the Basics of Survivability commander skill

 

 BoS.jpg.1a7e777a012e0e700253176c62ab420b.jpg

 And there you have minus 15% burntime to your bonfire

 

Of course he knows what he is doing so he will have the India Yankee signal too

 

1154345860_IndiaYankee.jpg.821c6ea103b264d39282b7b31484e0b3.jpg

 

 And there you have another 20% off your already reduced bonfire

 

Another aspect, is the burn probability reduction of the ship itself which scales from 6.7 % at tier 4 to 50 % at tier 10

 

PRed.thumb.jpg.49fff599f1e7b05d1c59a9f3e1ed8af5.jpg

 

 

 

Then there is this: (from the Global wiki)

 

Damage dealt by each instance of fire on a ship is fixed as 0.3% of its total health pool per fire per second (0.4% for aircraft carriers). Each fire has a base duration of 60 seconds for battleships, 30 seconds for cruisers and destroyers, and 5 seconds for aircraft carriers. A fire that is allowed to burn for the full duration will consume 18% (0.3% x 60 sec.) of a battleship's maximum health, 9% of a cruiser's or destroyer's maximum health, and 2% (0.4% x 5 sec.) of a carrier's.

 

 

All this is taking into account that the ship has no damage control available (and a smart captain wont be wasting it on the one fire)

And then there is the RNG factor of hitting or missing the target

 

Look it all up on the https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Fire

 

 

 

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I'd still go with CE as first 10p captain skill and try different things in games. I believe IFHE is a good 14p skill since you're uptiered a lot now. I've been less successful in Atlanta lately, so I'm not sure what the best build is. Keeping concealment as low as possible will help you survive longer though.

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[SKIDZ]
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Wrong build m8

 

https://worldofwarships.com/en/content/captains-skills/?skills=1,9,12,18,19,23,33&ship=Battleship

 

Shattered rounds have less chance of starting a fire so although IFHE reduces fire chance it in reality increases fire chance as less rounds now shatter. In the end though your ship your build

 

Just over 800 games played in my Atlanta 

 

On a side note BFT and AFT are essential in this ship NOT for AA purposes but for increased fire rate and further fire distance Although the AA part of those skills is still welcomed

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[FISHR]
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WOW!

Thank you all for the wonderful help you are giving me.

I'll try to answer/comment on your suggestions. I'll address skipper build at the end, since so many of you have suggested different things

@Sleepy_Bunny so RNG has a hand also in fire starting? OMG, I'm doomed, then. RNG hates me! The lack of IFHE was done on purpose, to enhance the fire-starting chance at the expense of direct damage. I'll try following this suggestion of yours and implement IFHE in my build.

@Beastofwar thank you for the ideas. Unfortunately, even though I forgot to mention this important bit of info, I was already aware of the limiti on the number of fires and the action time of Damage Con. That is why I always try to spray the targets with ripple fire, not salvos. You know, you have to water the whole garden, not just one spot... Of course, superstructure is easier than bow or stern, and Atlanta's rainbow arcs aren't helping, especially at range, but life is tough... Nice tip about switching targets. Duly noted. I'll try it, although @Sleepy_Bunny thinks is bad play style.

@ForlornSailor a-ha! That is the part I dod not know! I'll read the article you pointed me to. I had no idea different ships had different fire-catching coefficients. I kind of suspected something, being almost unable to set fires on German ships, but thought it was more to do with the Fire Prevention skipper skill. Thanks for that piece of information, man (or woman, I don't know).

@You_Overextended so, that is why I'm constantly facing Tier 9 ships! MM fixes for Tier 8 basically screwed Tier 7. Nice to know, thanks.

@DB2212 yep, I kinda guessed I needed a 19-pointer, here... Unfortunately I'm stil a noob and only have 11 points.

@Minos_of_Creta coop battles are boring: the bots are stupid and behave VERY differently from an even mildly competent human being. Plus, by the time you get into position with the puny range and speed of the Atlanta, all the bots are dead to other players. Coming top scorer on coop doesn't guarantee any kind of success in randoms. Additionally, last night I ended up top scorer or in the first half of the team most of the time. So my defeat rate is in a large part due to very poor choices made by my teammates.

The rest of your post, although a cold shower on my fire starting hopes (pun intended), is enlightening to the futility of DE. I'll read all the good stuff you pointed me to.

@loppantorkel I agree that concealment is important, but more than that is the gap between gun range and concealment Which is why is difficult to decide whether to get first IFHE (more damage) and then AFT (more quality of life) or the opposite way around.

 

RE skipper build, I see there are very different opinions on the matter. My understanding of the gist of it is that I should privilege direct damage over fires to be more effective against DDs and cruisers, albeit maybe a tad less effective against BBs (although if what @chazwozza says is true, IFHE in reality should help me start more fires and hence be more effective against BBs).

Now, if you can be bothered, please tell me if this basic build is a viable one:

Preventative Maintenance at tier 1

Adrenaline Rush at tier 2 (ditch EM, aye aye, Sir!)

Basic Fire Training at tier 3 (ditch DE, roger that)

Concealment Expert at tier 4

Then, with the remaining 9 points (8 of which I still have to acquire):

Inertia Fuse for HE, Advanced Fire Training, Priority Target (the last point is kinda wasted, but, there's no other skill to use it on...)

Or would you prioritise  the order in which to obtain tier 4 skills differently?

Please, let me know

 

Thank you very much to all who've bothered answering my cry for help

 

Good hunting

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10 hours ago, soffici said:

[snip]

ifhe, aft and ce are musthaves! de is optional, as is bft. em is a nono and having ar not is wrong. gl, njoy

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crap!

I just read the article on the wiki. It specifically says

As an example, we can compare the chance of a single Benson high explosive shell lighting a fire on an enemy Bismarck. 

  •  
  •  

The fire chance (per hit) would be:

(0.6337) x (1 - 0.05 - 0.00) x (0.055 - 0.0 + 0.02 + 0.01) = 5.12% fire chance

If the Bismarck commander acquires the Fire Prevention skill, the chance would then be:

(0.6337) x (1 - 0.05 - 0.10) x (0.055 - 0.0 + 0.02 + 0.01) = 4.58% fire chance

If the Benson commander didn't have Demolition Expert or the signals equipped, the chance would be:

(0.6337) x (1 - 0.05 - 0.10) x (0.055 - 0.0 + 0.0 + 0.0) = 2.96% fire chance

The above example can be used to demonstrate the usefulness of the Demolition Expert skill on certain ships, especially those with a high rate of fire and a low individual fire chance per shell (such as Atlanta, Gearing, or Akizuki). 

So should I or should I not use DE on my skipper?

Also on the same article, read note 1:

  1.  Note that the Fire ribbon is also awarded when a fire would have been set but is not because of a Damage Control Party (When activated, instantly repairs fires, floods, and incapacitations, and prevents more for the duration.) immunity period.

So Damage Con action period actually has no influence on the number of fire ribbons I should have gotten. But this is probably a non-issue, given the extremely low number of fires I started in the first place...

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44 minutes ago, soffici said:

@loppantorkel I agree that concealment is important, but more than that is the gap between gun range and concealment Which is why is difficult to decide whether to get first IFHE (more damage) and then AFT (more quality of life) or the opposite way around.

 

RE skipper build, I see there are very different opinions on the matter. My understanding of the gist of it is that I should privilege direct damage over fires to be more effective against DDs and cruisers, albeit maybe a tad less effective against BBs (although if what @chazwozza says is true, IFHE in reality should help me start more fires and hence be more effective against BBs).

Now, if you can be bothered, please tell me if this basic build is a viable one:

Preventative Maintenance at tier 1

Adrenaline Rush at tier 2 (ditch EM, aye aye, Sir!)

Basic Fire Training at tier 3 (ditch DE, roger that)

Concealment Expert at tier 4

Then, with the remaining 9 points (8 of which I still have to acquire):

Inertia Fuse for HE, Advanced Fire Training, Priority Target (the last point is kinda wasted, but, there's no other skill to use it on...)

Or would you prioritise  the order in which to obtain tier 4 skills differently?

Please, let me know

 

Thank you very much to all who've bothered answering my cry for help

 

Good hunting

Build seems good to me. The reason why think CE is so much more important than AFT or IFHE, and why I prioritize IFHE above AFT is that I run Atlanta without AFT.

My build is

PM

AR+LS

BFT+DE

CE+IFHE

Do I recommend this? Not necessarily. I like it, but it's a build less focused on damaging bbs and more on surprising dds. I think it was more effective before the MM change, but it's still decent and I like it.

I'd try the CE build at 10p and put points where you find Atlanta lacking. If you want better range, AFT is probably a good choice in the end.

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1 hour ago, soffici said:

@Beastofwar. Nice tip about switching targets. Duly noted. I'll try it, although @Sleepy_Bunny thinks is bad play style.

 

Setting multiple BB on fire - when they present themselves to be able do that ofc - is what stacks your damage to the higher regions. These are just multiple DOT's that stack simultaniously.

 

What is probably meant by "bad play style" is you should not fire your guns continously......that attracts counter fire.

 

When you are cool and watching your targets ( are they using Damage Control Party and are on immunity CD but after that also Damage Control Party CD so they cannot extinguish more fires ? Do they keep the fire burning ?  Are there any not burning spots ? Will they counter fire me ? ) you can do more damage ( over time ) then causing a raging firestorm of arcy shells.......that enrages enemies that want to kill you with priority.  ( flamethrower soldiers got a very bad treatment when captured in real wars.....you have essentially the same effect on enemies )

 

That said you can chase away enemies by a raging storm of arcy shells too, as many BB fear to burn....can be profitable to chase them away from caps for your team....or counter productive as they flee from your range. ( and arcy shells do not help at max range either )

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15 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Build seems good to me. The reason why think CE is so much more important than AFT or IFHE, and why I prioritize IFHE above AFT is that I run Atlanta without AFT.

My build is

PM

AR+LS

BFT+DE

CE+IFHE

Do I recommend this? Not necessarily. I like it, but it's a build less focused on damaging bbs and more on surprising dds. I think it was more effective before the MM change, but it's still decent and I like it.

I'd try the CE build at 10p and put points where you find Atlanta lacking. If you want better range, AFT is probably a good choice in the end.

Thanks

I need a 23-pointer...

The range afforded by AFT is invaluable.

In the last couple of days I've seen many matches with 1 DD per side. Maybe 2 CVs, but 4-DD matches have been few and far between.

Focusing on DD-blapping? Dunno

One thing I've learnt the hard way in this thing is that ANYTHING can pen you, even from the front. I've been citadeled by a DD, once (albeit shooting AP from 4 km at my not very angled broadside), therefore keeping enemies at arm's length is kind of a survival priority for me.

Range over firepower? That is the question your build vs other suggestions are putting on the table.

 

But thanks to all the ideas, now I have a clearer picture of what I should do, depending on what I want to focus on.

 

Good hunting

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1 hour ago, soffici said:

Now, if you can be bothered, please tell me if this basic build is a viable one:

Preventative Maintenance at tier 1

Adrenaline Rush at tier 2 (ditch EM, aye aye, Sir!)

Basic Fire Training at tier 3 (ditch DE, roger that)

Concealment Expert at tier 4

Then, with the remaining 9 points (8 of which I still have to acquire):

Inertia Fuse for HE, Advanced Fire Training, Priority Target (the last point is kinda wasted, but, there's no other skill to use it on...)

Or would you prioritise  the order in which to obtain tier 4 skills differently?

Think that Atlanta is a big DD without smoke. use Last stand (not Adr Rush) to keep your mobility and Priority target to know how many focusing u. use your sensors to know what is in the other side your island. if u play standing game use Engine Mod 2. 

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[17AF]
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Hey,

 

i have a question about how many fires DD can have ? it is 4 or 3 ? Cuz i never ever saw on my DD more then 3 fires... i guess on CA 4 fires it is normal to have ?

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2 minutes ago, Zymeth said:

Hey,

 

i have a question about how many fires DD can have ? it is 4 or 3 ? Cuz i never ever saw on my DD more then 3 fires... i guess on CA 4 fires it is normal to have ? 

 

Every ship can have 4 fires. Probably unlikely to get 4 fires on a DD, if you get hit so often you are probably dead before that.

I once got 4 fires in one salvo on a DD in an Operation... maybe i can find the screenshot.

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