Quarter pen on German 150mm DD guns.

[Sub_Human]

I feel like the german DDs are in a bad spot at the moment. Im not the only one to point out that the z52 could use some love.

But something that has been bothering me for a long time is that german 150mm guns have 1/4 penetration instead of the normal 1/6, both main guns and secondaries, but not on DDs... for whatever reason.

 

I think its time to fix this. It would give the german t6 (Gaede) and t8 (z23) DDs a much needed buff. The z39 does not need any buffs but its RoF is so bad anyway that better pen probably won't matter to much.

And while we are at it the 150mm DD guns could also get some range since they dont get any benefits from AFT. And 10.8km on a 150mm t8 gun is questionable.

 

You could probably even buff the 128mm guns on the DDs to 1/4 he pen without making them OP in any way. Their HE damage of 1500 is very low. Sure the AP damage is great but they can only pen flat broadsides so its useless compared to Russian DD AP and dont even mention the French.

 

Thoughts?

[SSGdoncollier]

Agreed. German dd needs some love. 

[ColonelPete]

I do not think making them gunboats is the right way.

The torps could use a bit more punch.

[Lakedaemonios]

either gun pen at 1/4 or torps dam to 16000 r enough to make Z's good again

[Sub_Human]

8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I do not think making them gunboats is the right way.

The torps could use a bit more punch.

Maybe! I agree that the 14800 damage on the torps is a bit low, as is the 10km and 10.5km range on t9 and t10. But on lower tiers the torps are quite nice. I find the guns more lacking, every z23 I met in this ranked sprint was basicly a free kill.

And to be honest, no HE pen buff or torp buff would change that anyway, but atleast they could fight cruisers and battleships easier.

[Sub_Human]

11 minutes ago, Agis_D said:

either gun pen at 1/4 or torps dam to 16000 r enough to make Z's good again

Im not sure either will make them good 

Higher torp alpha will make them better then they are right now. Torps are somewhat unreliable though.

 

HE pen would make them easier to play vs BBs and cruisers. But mainly I just dont see the logic in keeping their penetration values as they are, when the same caliber gun gets better penetration on cruisers, carriers and BBs.

[mcboernester]

37 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I do not think making them gunboats is the right way.

The torps could use a bit more punch.

The Torp Part will be powercreeped by the Pan European (swedish) DDs soon. As for Tier X : 

 

Torpedo tubes - 2x5 533 mm. Maximum damage - 10700. Range - 15.0 km. Speed - 86 kt. Reload time - 110 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.8 km.

 

 

The Thing with german DDs is that initially they where designed for the Gunboat part but something changed basically last minute which is why we got Torpedo Boats with bad concealment. I can't remember the details anymore though. 

[BlackYeti]

26 minutes ago, mcboernester said:

The Torp Part will be powercreeped by the Pan European (swedish) DDs soon. As for Tier X : 

 

Torpedo tubes - 2x5 533 mm. Maximum damage - 10700. Range - 15.0 km. Speed - 86 kt. Reload time - 110 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.8 km.

 

 

The Thing with german DDs is that initially they where designed for the Gunboat part but something changed basically last minute which is why we got Torpedo Boats with bad concealment. I can't remember the details anymore though. 

They were designed around german hydro which was deemed too powerful at the time and changed to standard, with the exception of z52

[Yxkraft]

41 minutes ago, mcboernester said:

The Torp Part will be powercreeped by the Pan European (swedish) DDs soon. As for Tier X : 

 

Torpedo tubes - 2x5 533 mm. Maximum damage - 10700. Range - 15.0 km. Speed - 86 kt. Reload time - 110 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.8 km.

 

 

The Thing with german DDs is that initially they where designed for the Gunboat part but something changed basically last minute which is why we got Torpedo Boats with bad concealment. I can't remember the details anymore though. 

10700 is crap damage though. Would only tickle a Yamato with 44% torpedo damage reduction. 

[Yxkraft]

8 hours ago, Systergummi said:

 

Thoughts?

Dont forget that german DDs also have awfully slow turning guns.

[Sunleader]

WUUT ?

Buff German DDs

Blasphemy!!!

 

Didnt People tell you that German DDs are Best Cappoint Brawlers in Game and Muh Stronk kill everything.

You just Noob with no Skill L2P Issues :P

 

 

Just wait for @ForlornSailor and @DFens_666 to come up and tell you how German DDs dont need to be Buffed cuz they are already Stronkest DDs anyways.....

[ollonborre]

1 hour ago, Yxkraft said:

10700 is crap damage though. Would only tickle a Yamato with 44% torpedo damage reduction. 

Sure. But the range and speed makes them so much better overall than the Z-52, because you have no fear of being radared and you can more effectively zone targets.

 

Not to mention the gunpower.

[Panocek]

9 hours ago, Systergummi said:

I feel like the german DDs are in a bad spot at the moment. Im not the only one to point out that the z52 could use some love.

But something that has been bothering me for a long time is that german 150mm guns have 1/4 penetration instead of the normal 1/6, both main guns and secondaries, but not on DDs... for whatever reason.

 

I think its time to fix this. It would give the german t6 (Gaede) and t8 (z23) DDs a much needed buff. The z39 does not need any buffs but its RoF is so bad anyway that better pen probably won't matter to much.

And while we are at it the 150mm DD guns could also get some range since they dont get any benefits from AFT. And 10.8km on a 150mm t8 gun is questionable.

 

You could probably even buff the 128mm guns on the DDs to 1/4 he pen without making them OP in any way. Their HE damage of 1500 is very low. Sure the AP damage is great but they can only pen flat broadsides so its useless compared to Russian DD AP and dont even mention the French.

 

Thoughts?

I kinda agree German derpstroyers are in uninspiring position, but IMO they kind of have to, due to having Hydroacoustic search, which makes them remarkably cancerous to play against.

 

9 hours ago, Systergummi said:

Sure the AP damage is great but they can only pen flat broadsides so its useless compared to Russian DD AP and dont even mention the French.

All these guns have identical ricochet angles and all these guns have more than enough penetration to punch holes in "nothing" part of "all-or-nothing".

 

If anything, Brit 113mm could see AP pen buff, these guns can be actually stopped by angled 32mm plating past 10km.

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

WUUT ?

Buff German DDs

Blasphemy!!!

 

Didnt People tell you that German DDs are Best Cappoint Brawlers in Game and Muh Stronk kill everything.

You just Noob with no Skill L2P Issues :P

 

 

Just wait for @ForlornSailor and @DFens_666 to come up and tell you how German DDs dont need to be Buffed cuz they are already Stronkest DDs anyways.....

 

I think you meant @Bear_Necessities not me

And in general, im not sure if buffing HE pen will make a huge difference. For Gaede? Not really. 25mm pen compared to 37mm. That would let you pen T8 BBs and Hipper/Eugen/Baltimore. Dont think thats a big deal.

Would make more of a difference for the Z23 ofc, since it meets more ships with 25+mm armor. But im not sure if that would be a desirable buff for german DDs - why would you want to dakka BBs?

[iFax]

They could always give German DDs homing torpedo's that you can fire around corners... They did it with the Krummlauf...

[ForlornSailor]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

WUUT ?

Buff German DDs

Blasphemy!!!

 

Didnt People tell you that German DDs are Best Cappoint Brawlers in Game and Muh Stronk kill everything.

You just Noob with no Skill L2P Issues :P

 

 

Just wait for @ForlornSailor and @DFens_666 to come up and tell you how German DDs dont need to be Buffed cuz they are already Stronkest DDs anyways.....

 

And that from the guy, that always complains about posts containing no arguments. good one.

 

btw: if you try to attack me, make it atelast right. Never said, they are the "strongest DDs". yawn.

 

---

 

Anyway: 1/4 pen on german DDs is not gonna change anything. Their weak spot is the low dpm/bad HE in fights against other anti-DD DDs - which have increased in numbers heavily after the german line was introduced. On top of that, thanks to low range of the german DDs, you would encourage ppl to smoke dakka at BBs and bring them in more danger. And im not a fan of 1/4 pen rule on main guns anyway. IJN gunboat DDs are totaly stupid because of that and quite frankly need a nerf.

 

Here is something, that helps german DDs in DD vs DD engagement (which is their thing): heal

[Sub_Human]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

German DDs dont need to be Buffed cuz they are already Stronkest DDs anyways.....

Flamu would agree ;)

Have a look at his vid where 12x GK eats 12x Kremlin and then 12x Yamato.

 

Edit: ignore me I read BBs 

[Sub_Human]

2 hours ago, Panocek said:

I kinda agree German derpstroyers are in uninspiring position, but IMO they kind of have to, due to having Hydroacoustic search, which makes them remarkably cancerous to play against.

2 hours ago, Panocek said:

All these guns have identical ricochet angles and all these guns have more than enough penetration to punch holes in "nothing" part of "all-or-nothing".

 

Sorry messed up the quoting on my phone :)

 

First part: The z23 has something like 3.9km smoke-fireing detection. Its clumpsy as hell so as long as its torps are on reload or you are sure its front/back is towards you you can rush it down with ease. It can basicly only get one shot of before you spot it. Its smoke is also very short lived so waiting it out is not a big thing.

 

Second part: Its not the angles that are the problem, but rather the lack of penetration on the AP. Atleast comparing the 128mm guns to Russian 130mm or French 139mm on t8-t10. Playing Russian or French DDs you can citadel cruisers at relatively safe ranges, Kiev being the exception. The French can wreck cruisers at 12-13km.

[Sub_Human]

42 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

And in general, im not sure if buffing HE pen will make a huge difference. For Gaede? Not really. 25mm pen compared to 37mm. That would let you pen T8 BBs and Hipper/Eugen/Baltimore. Dont think thats a big deal.

Would make more of a difference for the Z23 ofc, since it meets more ships with 25+mm armor. But im not sure if that would be a desirable buff for german DDs - why would you want to dakka BBs?

Im with you on the part where it wont really matter that much if the HE pen is buffed. Then again why should the same caliber gun have vastly different values depending on on what ship its placed on?

[Panocek]

3 minutes ago, Systergummi said:

Second part: Its not the angles that are the problem, but rather the lack of penetration on the AP. Atleast comparing the 128mm guns to Russian 130mm or French 139mm on t8-t10. Playing Russian or French DDs you can citadel cruisers at relatively safe ranges, Kiev being the exception. The French can wreck cruisers at 12-13km

Again, penetration on all DD guns except hightier french 139mm is inadequate to reliably threaten cruiser 100mm citadel plating past 8km. And from all 127-128mm guns, German one on Z-46/52 have actually the highest penetration.

[Sub_Human]

1 minute ago, Panocek said:

 And from all 127-128mm guns, German one on Z-46/52 have actually the highest penetration.

That makes sense now that you say it. Its still not very good though  making its use very limited except farming BBs in the front or butt at very close range. But sure those 4000 salvos vs unsaturated parts are nice when you can get them.

[Bear__Necessities]

Ohhhh god. Another German DD’s needs buff thread even though they are maybe the most well rounded and balanced....

 

I give up some days with the player base.

[Panocek]

13 minutes ago, Systergummi said:

That makes sense now that you say it. Its still not very good though  making its use very limited except farming BBs in the front or butt at very close range. But sure those 4000 salvos vs unsaturated parts are nice when you can get them.

Beauty of binary game mechanics (work/doesn't work) is unless you can hit relevant armor thresholds of penetration, it doesn't matter if your shells have 55mm or 80mm pen at 10km when you see broadside cruiser in front of you, made out of 25mm and 100mm platings You're going to perforate the former (unless ricochet or effective armor due to angle is higher) and you're not going to punch through the latter.

 

https://wowsft.com/arty

you can see pen plots yourself. Granted, unofficial one, but good luck finding "official" penetration charts

[creamgravy]

KM destroyer 150mm guns fire normal HE shells, not KM faction HE shells.

 

What would you prefer on 4-5 gun DD?

 

1700 damage, 8% fire and 37mm pen.

or

2200 damage, 12% fire and 24mm pen?

 

Easy choice when your DPM is super low (that's why WG gave them normal HE)

 

They get KM AP shells too (low pen, high damage) Wouldn't mind normal AP to test (like Mainz AP pen, so they can reliably citadel cruisers)

 

[BlackYeti]

2 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

I think you meant @Bear_Necessities not me

And in general, im not sure if buffing HE pen will make a huge difference. For Gaede? Not really. 25mm pen compared to 37mm. That would let you pen T8 BBs and Hipper/Eugen/Baltimore. Dont think thats a big deal.

Would make more of a difference for the Z23 ofc, since it meets more ships with 25+mm armor. But im not sure if that would be a desirable buff for german DDs - why would you want to dakka BBs?

150mm doesn't pen 25mm without IFHE, so yeah it would make a huge difference for Gaede too  inb4 the nerf to dmg though as german dd 150mm has better Alpha and fire chance than cruiser 150mm