Question to DD drivers - friendly fire

[Fodder1978]

So, today I took out one of my Xmas container drops for a spin, a US destroyer. Since I’m not a good destroyer captain at all, I took it on Co-Op to learn how it handles, where it shouldn’t do much harm. Famous last words...

 

So, basically I’ve been hiding in a smoke cloud, angled just enough to launch a big spread of torps, so far so good, the dumb bot goes right into my line of fire. I launch bang on target, ten torps in two spreads, he is gonna die. Unfortunately, one of my friendly cruisers then pulls into view and obligingly drives right into the Fan of Doom^TM. I try to type out a warning but too late, he loses about 80 percent of his health. Not good.

 

Five minutes later he pulls the same move again and now he’s sunk by friendly fire. Mine. And that’s my first ever team kill in over 2,000 matches played. Not a happy feeling.

 

So, my question is this, how should I feel about this, and what should I take away from it?

 

I’ve now got bitter experience that launching torps with friendlies anywhere near me runs a higher than expected risk of accidental teamkills, and I need to be WAY more careful of what’s around before launching, on the basis that they might not be paying attention or do something dumb. BUT... is it good for players to run so close to DDs either? The class has torps as its raison d’être, and I’ve found when running cruisers that all too often the ideal opportunity to launch is lost because a friendly player boxed me in and could get hit.

 

I’d be interested to know how DD drivers view this kind of thing, and listen to any good advice. Do other players often wander into the line of fire like this?

[hgbn_dk]

Your torps your responsibility nuff said.. And no typing a warning is not enough... STOP shooting torps from second line is where you wanna go

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Your torps are your responsibilty not your teammates responsibilty to evade. No one sails deliberately into your torps mostly.

So never lauch greedy, launch safe, and when you do hit a friendly say sorry.

[Bear__Necessities]

When you launch your torps. Assume your team are idiots and will do their best to sail into them. And like others said. Never torp 2nd line.

[Lord_Holland_of_Wessex]

100% your fault

[Verblonde]

12 minutes ago, Fodder1978 said:

I’d be interested to know how DD drivers view this kind of thing, and listen to any good advice. Do other players often wander into the line of fire like this?

As said already: your torps, always your responsibility. That said, it's not too hard to avoid it happening; some pointers:

• US DDs - it was one of those, right? - have mediocre, but not entirely catastrophic concealment (make sure you're running concealment mod, if available, and the captain must have CE). You shouldn't be lurking behind your allies most of the time, you should be forward - scouting and capping when possible. It's harder to torp friendlies if they're behind you.
• Your smoke produces enormous, and persistent, clouds - try and mainly use them to screen important allies, rather than sitting in them yourself (DD 101 calls for firing torps into smoke clouds, on general principles); it's a bit of a waste to use US smoke just to break contact, except in extremis. If you're moving around more actively - and get practiced in it - it's easier to launch from angles that reduce the risk of hitting a friendly.
• The longer ranged your torps, the better your map awareness needs to be; keep an eye on your mini-map and watch allies in your torp range (you're given a useful range circle) almost as closely as the enemy.
• Take your time when firing torps - generally - your reload is long, and it's better to get solid hits, and preferably on the enemy, than to waste a spread because you fired in haste.
• Don't get too torp-focused, especially with US DDs; your guns are pretty decent, especially against other DDs - if there is a risk of sinking a friendly with torps, perhaps switch to guns, if the loss of your stealth won't get you sunk.

What I would suggest, if you're mainly a player of other classes, is to watch a few tutorials (plus adapt your existing skills to the specific needs of DDs), and play in divisions with your mates who are DD meisters and watch what they do.

[AndyHill]

It's co-op and snow&blow -season so people are much more yolo than in typical PvP matches, making it easier to accidentally torp greens. That said, it's still your responsibility and you should never assume that friendlies will dodge your torps. They have enough on their mind with the reds, they won't be looking behind them for torps before the warning appears and even then if and when they're busy enough they will simply assume that their teammates haven't actually fired at them and focus on more dangerous threats.

[Beastofwar]

That all being said it is quite common to see DD players or even Cruiser players with "pink" names that have accidently torped friendlies previous match. Even some BB can do that in heated close quarters combat, missing the intended target and torping a friendly behind it...I managed to do that even with plane torpedo's although those are very short ranged.

 

The more range the torps have the more likely they strike friendlies that werent even near at lauch. Those 20 km suckers are quite infamous for it - Yoshino has them - but i did not hit friendlies with them yet. But not much enemies either

 

I would not lose sleep over that or being pink for a few matches.

 

 

[asalonen]

I wouldn't overthink it. Instead, just play for the win.

 

Some torpedo launches are risky, and sometimes you're pink. DD gameplay in general is all about calculated risks. With experience the risk taking will pay off more. 

 

You can often tell if the friendly is likely to be aware of you, or at least make a good guess. And vice versa, I try to be very careful when going in between the enemy and friendlies with torpedo tubes -- it's a risky move. 

 

Something like "your torps, your responsibility" is a good rule of thumb, but you can win more games by sharing the responsibilty. 

[ForlornSailor]

58 minutes ago, Fodder1978 said:

So, basically I’ve been hiding in a smoke cloud

 

One general rule: As a DD, sitting in your own smoke, is wrong in 95 out of 100 situations. That little damage your guns deal is lost 100 times by ships not beeing hit cuz your team lacks spotting. Especially US DD smoke is a great teamplay mechanic. All you need is teammates, that can cash in on that. Here is one example what im talking about: There im smoking up my Mino so he can farm without any risk. His guns are much more viable then mine, so I rather put the smoke to use for him.

 

 

[Fodder1978]

...fair comment that any torps fired are my responsibility. Totally accept that. Once they’re in the water it’s because I put them there.

 

I ought to clarify; at the time I set up the kill I wasn’t actually “second line”, I was at the front. By default it should have been only enemies up front and no friendlies. It was a yolo I hit accidentally, he must have come charging past as I set the shot up; my error was not to check the mini-map or flick a look around me before firing, or in this case holding fire. Guess everybody loses their senses in Co-Op mode and jst charges in like it’s some kind of prison riot.

 

Still, if I can’t use my most powerful weapon when any suicidal Yolo comes within a few clicks of me on the chance that they decide to go jumping on my ordnance, I reckon I’ll give DDs a miss and stick with the other classes. Each to their own.

 

+1 to the smoke comments, good stuff.

[Verblonde]

5 minutes ago, Fodder1978 said:

Still, if I can’t use my most powerful weapon when any suicidal Yolo comes within a few clicks of me on the chance that they decide to go jumping on my ordnance, I reckon I’ll give DDs a miss and stick with the other classes.

You can make a case that your most powerful weapon is actually your spotting (even if - in my view - you aren't adequately rewarded for it), but even so, playing in Randoms may help a bit - people are usually at least vaguely cautious in PvP - to a fault, as you'll know for your other classes. With practice, it all gets a lot easier.

 

BTW which premium DD did you actually get? We might be able to provide more specific pointers, to avoid 'wasting' it.

 

FWIW though, I often don't play torp-centric DDs in Coop, as I find the other classes are often more suitable in general.

[SSGdoncollier]

1 saat önce, hgbn_dk dedi:

Your torps your responsibility nuff said.. And no typing a warning is not enough... STOP shooting torps from second line is where you wanna go

Absolutely agreed

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, Fodder1978 said:

So, my question is this, how should I feel about this, and what should I take away from it?

You should feel bad.

You should learn NOT to aim your torps in the path of friendlies.

17 minutes ago, Fodder1978 said:

I ought to clarify; at the time I set up the kill I wasn’t actually “second line”, I was at the front.

As soon as your torps can reach a friendly, you are torping from second line. There are very few ships that can overtake an EXTREMLY low number of torps in the game. In 99.9% of the cases a friendly CANNOT overtake your torps.

[Fodder1978]

19 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You should feel bad.

You should learn NOT to aim your torps in the path of friendlies.

As soon as your torps can reach a friendly, you are torping from second line. There are very few ships that can overtake an EXTREMLY low number of torps in the game. In 99.9% of the cases a friendly CANNOT overtake your torps.

And I have owned that error, even posted it and asked for advice.

 

What I’ve taken away from it and the feedback is that:

• My situational awareness was at fault.
• I was too focussed on the target and not my team’s positions and headings, which had moved on since I started my manoeuvre.
• Smoke use is more useful laid down for team mates’ concealment.
• The DD can be better used spotting for the team than directly engaging, the same as CV squadrons often do.
• Don't bother torping anything if any team mates are anywhere near. Assume they’re stupid.
• People lose their caution in Co-Op games. Me included, judging by this incident.
• ...and that I don’t have the temperament for a DD driver.

 

(On the plus side, 99.9% of torps I have ever launched from any ship or aircraft have not been in the path of friendlies)

 

Thanks for the feedback, all. I’ll make sure this doesn’t happen again.

[Unknown_Lifeform]

8 hours ago, Verblonde said:

BTW which premium DD did you actually get? We might be able to provide more specific pointers, to avoid 'wasting' it.

 

I'm going to take a guess at the Sims. Being in front but still managing to hit your own ships is an issue for ships with long ranged and very slow torps (sims, black) - you torp forwards but also at an angle and then someone pushes aggressively further along the map and eats the torps several minutes later. Its an extra thing to be aware of when torping with those ships.

[Perekotypole]

don't lauch torps from second raw. Even if you don't hit friendlies, you limit their movement options and distract them.

[veslingr]

6 minutes ago, Unknown_Lifeform said:

 

I'm going to take a guess at the Sims. Being in front but still managing to hit your own ships is an issue for ships with long ranged and very slow torps (sims, black) - you torp forwards but also at an angle and then someone pushes aggressively further along the map and eats the torps several minutes later. Its an extra thing to be aware of when torping with those ships.

If dd torps his ship dd is in wrong position. Easy is that. There is no slow torpedoes but torping from behind

[Johnny_Moneto]

Vor 10 Stunden, Fodder1978 sagte:

 

I’ve now got bitter experience that launching torps with friendlies anywhere near me runs a higher than expected risk of accidental teamkills, and I need to be WAY more careful of what’s around before launching, on the basis that they might not be paying attention or do something dumb. BUT...

This. No ifs, no buts, no coconuts. 

[djfast]

8 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

As soon as your torps can reach a friendly, you are torping from second line.

AS a dd player i do not agree with this. Not torping just because you torps MIGHT reach friendlies depends in the situation and should not be a rule of thumb. And you may send torps in the direction of friendly ships depending if the rewards compensate the risk.

 

So what is torping from second line? Is is if you are sailing in a close to parallel line to a friendly ship and that friendly ship is close to you and in between you and your target. If the grey prediction of the torps path crosses with the direction of the friendly ship do not shoot. If that grey line is behind the frindly ship you will have to take a risk because you may still hit him if he decides to stop. But that falls in the risk reward situation. Now the farther these parallel lines are, the less second line it becomes and since the battlefield is constantly changing you need to think before you act, thtas the best advice.

 

Second line torping is the most common new player mistake and easy to fix and is 100% to blame on the 1 that did the torping. But there is a case where some will say that is second line torping and that it is the dd fault but i totally disagree and that is overtaking ships.

 

This is what i think it happened with with OP. To be fair it is a 50/50 blame situation but i think that is totally to blame on the overtaking ship since they come from behind totaly out of the field of vision. You can have good map awareness but for god sake you do not have 360 vision. So as to be safe in all situations i avoid overtaking ships by passing near them AND in front of their line of fire. This will avoid 100% being in the receiving end of friendly fire.Second line or not.

 

But there are some rare situations where you may have sent torps in the direction of friendlies because you have no choice.

 

 - Knife figthing/ close quarters: It is not uncommon fro a dd captain to be behind enemy lines spoting for the team or hunting fro enemy dd behind your lines. This put you some times in a situation where torping may hit friendlies. This problem comes with longer range torps and usually rare but you need to torp to win the fight and not get killed.

 

And there are also situations where you ned to consider that torps may be coming.

 

- Smoke screens: Usually most dds will send torps into enemy laid smoke screens, especially if there are cruisers on them but this is also a situation where you may friendly torp or get friendly torped(depending in witch side you are), but in both situations you did the logic and correct thing.

In one had the enemy dd may be sitting in the smoke and so you torped it but there is a friendly dd that was near and decided to risk it and rush the smoke. I saw myself many times in the side of the 1 rushing the smoke but because of my awareness i evaded the friendly torps and used them to help me rush the enemy dd smoke. The friendly dd did not fire from a second line and it was me that sailed right into the direction of those torps. So if they hited me whose fault was it?

 

So all in all isnt just black and white. Each case is a case. The only scenario where i consider to be 100% fault is the one i described to define the second line torping. The rest are situations were both are to blame since either one could have avoided it, situations where you had not much of a choice or situations where you sent the torps intentional because it was worth to take the risk and it was with good intentions and you know you are to blame if they hit friendlies.

 

8 hours ago, Fodder1978 said:

What I’ve taken away from it and the feedback is that:

• My situational awareness was at fault.
• I was too focussed on the target and not my team’s positions and headings, which had moved on since I started my manoeuvre.
• Smoke use is more useful laid down for team mates’ concealment.
• The DD can be better used spotting for the team than directly engaging, the same as CV squadrons often do.
• Don't bother torping anything if any team mates are anywhere near. Assume they’re stupid.
• People lose their caution in Co-Op games. Me included, judging by this incident.
• ...and that I don’t have the temperament for a DD driver.

 

Overall what you took in is correct but i would like to add some bits more:

 

DDs roles:

1 - Scouting: Mostly dds have the role of scouting ahead of the team meaning they provide information of the enemy team (If you know what the enemy team is doing and movin to and the enemy team does not know that dont you think that is a big advantage?)

2 - Counter play: SInce you are scouting ahead of your team you will also being spoting ahead of time the torps sent by the enemy dds adn with the friendlies close to you you can hunt for the enemy dd and eliminate him making so that your team can push freely and unspotted.

2 - Defensive play. In my opinion the dds perform better in the defensive than in the offensive, since it is easier to hit with torps ships that are coming towards you tan running away, especially with short range torps.

[Fodder1978]

It was a Monaghan. Two quintuple launcher setup, hence the very large spread.

[Excavatus]

Keep this always in your mind mate, before you fire torps!

 

If there is a teammate, who may be able to eat your torps, they will make that move and eat your torps! Thats an unwritten rule here :D

[________________Morrison]

Atago has torps. 

Target is in torp range. 

Massa is sailing in a diffrent direction. 

Launches torps.

Massa decides to turn around and hug alll the torps. 

[Lieut_Gruber]

It happens now and then, and you seem remorseful about it. Dont make it bigger than it is, apologise to the victim and play the game.

[veslingr]

11 minutes ago, Sirius_IV said:

Atago has torps. 

Target is in torp range. 

Massa is sailing in a diffrent direction. 

Launches torps.

Massa decides to turn around and hug alll the torps. 

Your fault.