Massachusetts vs Bismarck/Tirpitz secondary damage numbers

[Ocsimano18]

I tend to have very low (6000-10000HP) secondary damage with Bismarck/Tirpitz. Massa makes 2-3 times more. I have IFHE on Massa, but no IFHE on the Germans. Would IFHE on Bismarck/Tirpitz make a difference, or simply Massa is that much superior?

 

Here are my commander builds:

[lafeel]

Just now, Ocsimano18 said:

Would IFHE on Bismarck/Tirpitz make a difference, or simply Massa is that much superior?

Pretty sure the answer to this is a emphatic yes, it would make a (considerable) difference.

[Captain_Newman]

Nah, german secondary HE shells already get the improved german pen, IFHE would improve this a bit but I highly doubt it's worth the 4 points. I'd go PT-EM-BFT-AFT-ManSec-SI-AR on a full german secondary build, probably. Some skills on that german captain aren't optimal.. direction center for example, not that useful and won't save you from a CV, especially in the derpy state the fighter consumable is atm.

[RAYvenMP]

21 minutes ago, Captain_Newman said:

Nah, german secondary HE shells already get the improved german pen, IFHE would improve this a bit but I highly doubt it's worth the 4 points. I'd go PT-EM-BFT-AFT-ManSec-SI-AR on a german secondary build, probably. Some skills on that german captain aren't optimal.. direction center for example, not that useful and won't save you from a CV, especially in the derpy state the fighter consumable is atm.

german secondary builds allows to run Fire prevention instead of IFHE, i would definitely pick it up over SI or BFT (you can still pick one)

[Captain_Newman]

1 minute ago, RAYvenMP said:

german secondary builds allows to run Fire prevention instead of IFHE, i would definitely pick it up over SI or BFT (you can still pick one)

Me too, was just outlining a pure secondary build, ofc those are mostly for derpfests and not necessarily the best.

[Panocek]

53 minutes ago, Ocsimano18 said:

I tend to have very low (6000-10000HP) secondary damage with Bismarck/Tirpitz. Massa makes 2-3 times more. I have IFHE on Massa, but no IFHE on the Germans. Would IFHE on Bismarck/Tirpitz make a difference, or simply Massa is that much superior?

 

Here are my commander builds:

Increased penetration is of little use when you can't hit the bastard in first place. Besides, Bismarck already have 25mm pen on her 105mm guns, while with IFHE you could crank that up to 32mm, enabling you to rake most targets in game, subpar accuracy (compared to Massa/Georgia/Ohio) is going to rear its ugly head again.

 

TL;DR Germans were powercrept to hell in secondary department by Massa/Georgia/Ohio

[Lebedjev]

People really build secondary, other than to complete mission in coop ? :x

 

[Ocsimano18]

I made a quick test. My Bismarck captain finished a La Gallisoniere in 90 seconds, the Massa captain finished in 50 seconds with the builds above. Bismarck had about 26% secondary hit ratio, Massa had 40%, also Bismarck had 285 avg damage per secondary round, while Massa had 357 (i.e. 25% more), which explains the difference. I included screenshots when the secondaries started firing (I adjusted the Massa angle later to be similar to that of Bismarck) and the end results.

 

[ollonborre]

Massa has much more improved accuracy, which often outweigh the raw damage output of the Bismarck/Tirpitz. You still need to hit stuff to do damage, and the Massa is simply better in that department.

[RenamedUser_92906789]

I still keep my Tirpitz / Bismarck (shared captain, kept Bismarck cause ... Bismarck, plus I got that sick "beatup" camo) secondary specd.

 

Not that I have been playing them lately, but whenever a secondary directive pops up I use one of them.

[Ocsimano18]

57 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Increased penetration is of little use when you can't hit the bastard in first place. Besides, Bismarck already have 25mm pen on her 105mm guns, while with IFHE you could crank that up to 32mm, enabling you to rake most targets in game, subpar accuracy (compared to Massa/Georgia/Ohio) is going to rear its ugly head again.

 

TL;DR Germans were powercrept to hell in secondary department by Massa/Georgia/Ohio

About 66% of Bismarck secondary shell damage is from the 105mm guns,. Even if they pen, they have 1200 max damage vs Massa 1800.

I wonder if the occasional secondary DD kill/fear effect worth specing into them.

[Excavatus]

IFHE on german secondaries allow you pen the 32mm armor of the BBs bows and afts..

 

A pure secondary build is,

AFT - BFT - IFHE - ManSec - AR

 

Make your ships specced like this..

Then go against a tier 8 BB.. then compare scores..

 

You'll see the superiority of the German Secondaries..

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, Ocsimano18 said:

About 66% of Bismarck secondary shell damage is from the 105mm guns,. Even if they pen, they have 1200 max damage vs Massa 1800.

I wonder if the occasional secondary DD kill/fear effect worth specing into them.

Now compare accuracy of secondaries (amount of shells fired and shells on target) or, if you can measure it, "time to kill". Even against bots in training room. Secondaries are meme 95% of the time in randoms. That 5% is when you get BB or cruiser in range you can happily sprinkle with secondaries that happen to have enough pen to deal direct damage.

 

Also listed damage is for citadel hits, effective damage per shell would be 396 for 105 vs 594 for USN 5"/38, both against intact ship section.

[22cm]

No IFHE, Bismarck pens 25 mm, Massa pens 20 cm.

 

With IFHE, Bismarck pens 33 mm, Massa pens 27 cm.

 

While La Gal has basicly no armor, its 13-16 mm...

 

[HaachamaShipping]

Testing solely against a T6 cruiser that has no armour is pretty pointless. American secondaries basically are better against anything with low amounts of armour, while Germans are specialised around higher penetration. With same build, Germans will always have more ships they can do direct damage to, without IFHE that being cruisers (where Massachusetts fails to pen high tier cruisers except RN) and with IFHE BBs (which Massachusetts will only ever pen in the superstructure at high tiers).

 

And apart from secondaries, the two ships are quite different, so there's that. Overall, I'd take the Bismarck over Massachusetts (and Monarch over both).

[Ocsimano18]

39 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

IFHE on german secondaries allow you pen the 32mm armor of the BBs bows and afts..

 

A pure secondary build is,

AFT - BFT - IFHE - ManSec - AR

 

Make your ships specced like this..

Then go against a tier 8 BB.. then compare scores..

 

You'll see the superiority of the German Secondaries..

Once I get a free re-spec, I'll do it. I'm not going to spend my hard earned doubloons just to try out something that might or might not worth it.

[Captain_Newman]

Yes, Massa secondaries are incredibly accurate, even without manual secondaries I feel like they hit more than bismarck does with a man sec build, but I could be wrong on this, I haven't gone out to actually test it. I will, however, say that she puts the Bismarck to shame when it comes to secondary power.

[kfa]

1 hour ago, Lebedjev said:

People really build secondary, other than to complete mission in coop ? :x

 

yes. you dont always have to tryhard, sometimes fun is allowed

[RAYvenMP]

2 hours ago, Lebedjev said:

People really build secondary, other than to complete mission in coop ? :x

 

it is not meta build on anything except Massa, she does not have access to GunMod1 and primary guns are short range and inaccurate. Lost survivability in secondary build is compensated by super short repair CD.

On ship like Bismarck/Tirpitz or FDG it is better to spec for survival - FP, BoS,CE etc, but somewhat hybrid build with AFT/FP/ManSec is decent thanks to german HE pen modifier.

On GK and Georgia/Ohio you go for main guns and survival, ManSec or SecMods are waste ... but ppl still do it for fun and once in a blue moon you can have some epic brawl with it.

 

i have 2-3 19 pt captains for each of those ships and just rotate them based on my mood, sometimes you get lucky and are thrown in top tier game with secondary build and its pretty fun then ;)

[Panocek]

36 minutes ago, kfa said:

yes. you dont always have to tryhard, sometimes fun is allowed

Fun? In internet game? Preposterous

[RenamedUser_92906789]

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

IFHE on german secondaries allow you pen the 32mm armor of the BBs bows and afts..

 

A pure secondary build is,

AFT - BFT - IFHE - ManSec - AR

 

Make your ships specced like this..

Then go against a tier 8 BB.. then compare scores..

 

You'll see the superiority of the German Secondaries..

Im still using the old school full sec spec KM T8 build... is it obsolete?

 

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1000000000100010000011001000100019

[22cm]

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

3 hours ago, Lebedjev said:

People really build secondary, other than to complete mission in coop ? :x

 

Yeah because the tier X BB meta is too freakishly boring not to.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Sooo... I got secondary specced captain for my secondary specced Bismarck.. and Tripitz B (got it from a container last year) and now the Massa B (from container this year)...

 

Tripitz is lots of fun for CoOp, due to german armour and torps...

But for random Massa gets lots more lulz, melting DDs and planes alike...

[asalonen]

The secondary build is good with Tirpitz, and IFHE is not really necessary so you save some points for survival skills. 

 

Secondaries on Massachusetts absolutely need IFHE, but they are a LOT stronger overall. The dispersion is very, very good. Also, they have very floaty firing arcs that allow shooting over islands when your main battery can't. 

 

I would say that if you have the captain skill points for BFT + AFT + IFHE + Manual secondaries, it's so good that no other build makes sense. Secondaries make the Massachusetts stand out. With Tirpitz and Bismarck you can make stronger arguments both for and against.