Lion is just utter Trash

[Kiwi1960]

34 minutes ago, Nit0 said:

True, anything else would be a bit weird. You control it's weapon system just like any other ship in the game.

but but but but.... (sigh) .... the ship and ships weapons systems are miles apart... in this case.

 

I admit, I loved the old CV's... but only in Co-Op ... on average, I'd sink a ship a game... you CANNOT do that now, not in CoOp and seriously, I'd NEVER want to take a CV into Random...

 

I'd feel naked.... I'd feel ineffectual... if the ship was my lover... she'd want a divorce .... whereas, in a BB... we'd still be in love, k'know... we would both be satisfied...

 

But a CV..... how can ANYONE get excited about a current version CV? It certainly doesn't get me aroused.... and normally, I love the curves and lines on a good ship....

 

Crazy thing is, big powerful REAL CV's really do excite me .... but the WoWs ones? They sell the CV's.... but you don't really get to drive her... well, you COULD.... but you'd never get to fire her "guns".... right?

[Nit0]

10 hours ago, Kiwi1960 said:

but but but but.... (sigh) .... the ship and ships weapons systems are miles apart... in this case.

 

I admit, I loved the old CV's... but only in Co-Op ... on average, I'd sink a ship a game... you CANNOT do that now, not in CoOp and seriously, I'd NEVER want to take a CV into Random...

 

I'd feel naked.... I'd feel ineffectual... if the ship was my lover... she'd want a divorce .... whereas, in a BB... we'd still be in love, k'know... we would both be satisfied...

 

But a CV..... how can ANYONE get excited about a current version CV? It certainly doesn't get me aroused.... and normally, I love the curves and lines on a good ship....

 

Crazy thing is, big powerful REAL CV's really do excite me .... but the WoWs ones? They sell the CV's.... but you don't really get to drive her... well, you COULD.... but you'd never get to fire her "guns".... right?

Then play BB. And you still control the CV, even though it was better in rts. If you don't control your cv, you may end up

A) dead

B) too far away from the battle to make an impact

C) never getting the chance to see Graf Zeppelin secondaries in action

[Kiwi1960]

3 hours ago, Nit0 said:

Then play BB. And you still control the CV, even though it was better in rts. If you don't control your cv, you may end up

A) dead

B) too far away from the battle to make an impact

C) never getting the chance to see Graf Zeppelin secondaries in action

Its not the same. I get what they did, BUT.... this is a warship game, if I wanted to fly planes, I'd play war thunder or world of warships.

 

Its a bit .... misleading.... selling CV's and then flying the planes....

[HaachamaShipping]

6 minutes ago, Kiwi1960 said:

Its a bit .... misleading.... selling CV's and then flying the planes....

What did you expect? Automated planes? Or how would you have a CV without controlling the planes? Honestly, that would be one way to make the rework worse, by making it all about hull control and automated planes that farm damage on their own (or are way too incompetent to do so). 

[Kiwi1960]

1 hour ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

What did you expect? Automated planes? Or how would you have a CV without controlling the planes? Honestly, that would be one way to make the rework worse, by making it all about hull control and automated planes that farm damage on their own (or are way too incompetent to do so). 

I would expect them to have left it alone... but also, I expect things to be done the right way... but then, that is just me. Captains on REAL aircraft carriers drives the ship, they do not also fly the planes... not when the captain is driving a multi billion dollar warship (these days) ... he isn't earning his money by giving control of his ship to the executive officer... but then, hey, so what... WoWs says its "historical".... so it must be.... right?

 

right?

[HaachamaShipping]

10 minutes ago, Kiwi1960 said:

I would expect them to have left it alone... but also, I expect things to be done the right way... but then, that is just me. Captains on REAL aircraft carriers drives the ship, they do not also fly the planes... not when the captain is driving a multi billion dollar warship (these days) ... he isn't earning his money by giving control of his ship to the executive officer... but then, hey, so what... WoWs says its "historical".... so it must be.... right?

 

right?

I mean, the real warship commanding experience is 99% of your time you spend on steaming between destinations and maintaining the ship. this is a game. what would be the game experience if you would not command the planes? What would be the implications regarding game balance? It's silly to expect a CV in such a game to not be able to command its goddamn planes. That'd be like saying a BB captain only orders to engage a ship, they do not turn the guns, calculate the lead and stuff...

[Nit0]

2 hours ago, Kiwi1960 said:

I would expect them to have left it alone... but also, I expect things to be done the right way... but then, that is just me. Captains on REAL aircraft carriers drives the ship, they do not also fly the planes... not when the captain is driving a multi billion dollar warship (these days) ... he isn't earning his money by giving control of his ship to the executive officer... but then, hey, so what... WoWs says its "historical".... so it must be.... right?

 

right?

Captains on REAL battleships only control the ship, not the artillery. It's good this game is not going for realism then.

[Kiwi1960]

5 hours ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

I mean, the real warship commanding experience is 99% of your time you spend on steaming between destinations and maintaining the ship. this is a game. what would be the game experience if you would not command the planes? What would be the implications regarding game balance? It's silly to expect a CV in such a game to not be able to command its goddamn planes. That'd be like saying a BB captain only orders to engage a ship, they do not turn the guns, calculate the lead and stuff...

Then call it "World Of Warships and CV planes".....

 

 

[Kiwi1960]

3 hours ago, Nit0 said:

Captains on REAL battleships only control the ship, not the artillery. It's good this game is not going for realism then.

Not really.. on a real ship, they are in control and in charge of the whole ship... if the captain orders the gunnery officer to fire at an enemy contact, then that is what happens.

 

If the contact is sunk and it turns out to have been an enemy ship, they give the captain a medal... but if it was a friendly ship... the captain faces the court martial... the gunnery officer was only following the lawful orders of his superier...

 

saying the captain in only in charge of the ship but not the guns.... is crazy. In the chain of command.... the captain (or whoever has lawful command of the ship) is always accountable.... under maritime law and military law....

 

Having a law that says YES, but unless X is in control or maybe if Y is...... yeah, KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid..... the one who commands the ship controls the ship.... and is accountable as such.

[DrMechano]

On 1/13/2020 at 10:25 PM, TerryCox said:

How did you find the Monarch?

Actually not AS bad, the guns were a bit iffy but the AP felt like it was usable and the accuracy felt...okish...I mean if given a choice between the Monarch and the Vanguard I'd probably pick the Vanguard.

[Nit0]

2 hours ago, Kiwi1960 said:

Not really.. on a real ship, they are in control and in charge of the whole ship... if the captain orders the gunnery officer to fire at an enemy contact, then that is what happens.

 

If the contact is sunk and it turns out to have been an enemy ship, they give the captain a medal... but if it was a friendly ship... the captain faces the court martial... the gunnery officer was only following the lawful orders of his superier...

 

saying the captain in only in charge of the ship but not the guns.... is crazy. In the chain of command.... the captain (or whoever has lawful command of the ship) is always accountable.... under maritime law and military law....

 

Having a law that says YES, but unless X is in control or maybe if Y is...... yeah, KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid..... the one who commands the ship controls the ship.... and is accountable as such.

And this is not how it works for carriers? Or is it total anarchy, where the pilots sa, "screw this, let's make up our own orders"

[Kiwi1960]

31 minutes ago, Nit0 said:

And this is not how it works for carriers? Or is it total anarchy, where the pilots sa, "screw this, let's make up our own orders"

Yes it is.... but you confuse the chain of command on a carrier.\

 

Captain has ultimate control of the ship... if his superiors tell him to bomb a target at X then he carries out those orders.... he gets his CAG (Commander Air Group) to draw up palns and assigns the planes... the Captain checks the plan and signs off on it... the pilots carry out the attack... but if the pilot bombs the wrong target, its the pilot up on charges.... but if the target is right but its actually a hospital, then the Captain is held to account UNLESS its bad intelligence or bad orders... either way, the only way that can be found out is at a Court of inquiry OR a Court martial... 

 

This is why the Captains get the big bucks..... and really.... its why WoWs is JUST a game... think about it... how many skippers (in the game) have fired at civilian ground buildings? (a war crime) or rammed another ship by accident OR on purpose.... or fired on another ally or damaged or sunk an ally because they fired torps when an ally was in the area..... this is why WoWs can NEVER be like real life... those saying uiuts OK for the skipper to fly combat missions on a CV would be some of the LAST people I'd ever give command of a real ship to... seriously... in real life, a "sorry" doesn't cut it. The captain on a CV has to STAY on the ship to deal with ANYTHING that comes along....

If you're flying a mission (in game) on the other side of the map, you're the skipper of that plane and not the ship... which makes sense... if a DD sneaks behind the front line then you're in trouble.... but if you are quick enough... you CAN get back to your ship and try to evade torps... its why they came up with the idea of "auto modules".... right?

[Kiwi1960]

oops, double post, sorry, removed.

[MRGTB]

I hated the Lion and grinded it all the way to the Conq.

 

The Conq is a much better ship.

[zheng_he14]

On 1/16/2020 at 12:48 AM, MRGTB said:

I hated the Lion and grinded it all the way to the Conq.

 

The Conq is a much better ship.

I hope so I hate the Lion, so bad, its worse than the Monarch, and I got to grips with that ship, once the captain was respecced,  with the Lion it just a joyless experience, you either sit at the back watching the much vaunted HE salvos not light anything up unless you use all 9 guns and then get hammered when you do,  so you end up running around doing no damage, don't contribute to the team or get deleted in a single salvo, because a Musahi, didn't like being lit up.

 

The AP only seems to hurt cruisers how can 16.5in shells do so little damage to BBs, had dozens of salvos where hits are registered pens and 0 damage!  The HE is great at lightening up destroyers but little else yesterday landed 6 HE pens on a Thunderer not the tank'est of ships and it did less than 8K of damage and no fires! The guns have ugly dispersion that I think I am in the gneis

 

Not the best player by a long shot but when I get better results using the same captain firing AP in a Nelson its not my aim that's the problem!

 

They should take down all those dumb [edited]tube videos about how awesome it is , false advertising! Its rare to see one in Random matches because its basically useless

 

Got a JB, win rate isn't particularly high but its a blast every time I take her out and she does reliable damage.

 

Got 120,000 xp more to grind before I can get a conq, but I just can't stomach  playing the Lion with any regularity and don't want to waste free xp if its more of the same

[Maris_Piper]

I found this very informative Folks, I first ground out the German BB line and then alternated with the Royal Navy and IJN line I got to HMS Lion just as WG announced they were going to screw them over with the raised citadel (Probably Someone had Fun playing it)I just thought  it.. Reading this I don't think I made the wrong choice having thrown some coal at HMS Thunderer I think I'll stick with that.

Just on the subject of Royal Navy Battleships Where did the 72 second turret traverse idea come from fgs in reality they were faster than some of the in game rivals. if it was to counter balance German accuracy then that is no longer relevant unless it's because when the Royal Navy lent the Russian Navy HMS  Sovereign it cams back with the turrets seized up due to rust and they thought that's how they were supposed to be 

[Pegasus2022]

Havent played my Lion in ages. It's pretty trash as far as i'm concerned and I did like it when I originally played it. It's got no redeeming features to compensate for that rear turret's crappy angles. I think most UK BB's have been power creeped now.

 

Monarch and Lion are both deemed pretty trash, KGV isn't much better.

 

It's much the same with the cruisers, Edinborough and Neptune were both very mediocre to start with and are now just terrible.

[zheng_he14]

On 4/5/2020 at 10:44 AM, zheng_he14 said:

I hope so I hate the Lion, so bad, its worse than the Monarch, and I got to grips with that ship, once the captain was respecced,  with the Lion it just a joyless experience, you either sit at the back watching the much vaunted HE salvos not light anything up unless you use all 9 guns and then get hammered when you do,  so you end up running around doing no damage, don't contribute to the team or get deleted in a single salvo, because a Musahi, didn't like being lit up.

 

The AP only seems to hurt cruisers how can 16.5in shells do so little damage to BBs, had dozens of salvos where hits are registered pens and 0 damage!  The HE is great at lightening up destroyers but little else yesterday landed 6 HE pens on a Thunderer not the tank'est of ships and it did less than 8K of damage and no fires! The guns have ugly dispersion that I think I am in the gneis

 

Not the best player by a long shot but when I get better results using the same captain firing AP in a Nelson its not my aim that's the problem!

 

They should take down all those dumb [edited]tube videos about how awesome it is , false advertising! Its rare to see one in Random matches because its basically useless

 

Got a JB, win rate isn't particularly high but its a blast every time I take her out and she does reliable damage.

 

Got 120,000 xp more to grind before I can get a conq, but I just can't stomach  playing the Lion with any regularity and don't want to waste free xp if its more of the same

To give some context, here's a pretty good Random tier 9 match from today, spent the match lurking in the shadows and hiding behind a low island snipping at the opposition from 10 - 15 km. My team's Izomo and Big Mo did a lot of the heavy lifting, my poor team mate in the Donskoi was next to me on a flank initially with a Mahan and got targeted, (they couldn't spot me!) so there's something to be said for the Lion's concealment

 

 

The Baltimore made the mistake of using its DP on the first fire so it just burned as I pelted in with HE, while it dueled with our Donskoi

Their Alaska and Donskoi likewise from behind the safety of an island

The Iowa was in a death duel with our Big Mo and I just tapped it with a full broadside of AP from about 20km before it could reload, so a lucky shot saving my team mate

My team mates thought I did an great job because I dispatched the Baltimore and Iowa at key moments but I  just felt like the side show hiding behind an island

 

As you can see despite a reload of 26 sec and a 19 pt captain with Adrenaline rush the damage caused wasn't great for the number of shells that hit the targets and have to play it like a super cruiser hiding behind islands. 

 

In an earlier match got over 90K of damage before burning up but that was because I was last ship on a flank facing a cruiser, 3 BBs and a HE spamming destroyer solo because the chicken that was in the Izumo ran away after asking for help, I couldn't shake the dd after been lit up (concealment goes to 14km from 12) so had to stand and fight with plenty of target options, lasted about 12 mins into the match!

 

Therein lies the problems with Lion its not really a tier 9 battleship more a tier 9 battlecruiser, try using it as a BB and you're literally toast, you can get good damage numbers only if you find a GK or Yamato and keep setting them on fire by HE spamming, in a good team once weakened your teammates will have dispatched them before the fires clock up the full damage so your damage numbers are limited, in a bad team you're dead because you won't have any support and your damage numbers will be limited because you don't finish the match.

 

The alternative is sit at the back pop the spotter plane at every opportunity and just fire HE all game hoping to hit something, tried to duke it out bow on with an Iowa once at 9-10km ended up super healing and ramming them because it destroyed (not incapacitated, destroyed) both my front turrets whilst I only managed 30K of damage on it using a mix of HE and AP and I wasn't missing at 9km!

[Commander_Ericson]

Got to be honest I don't really understand why they raise the citadel. Along with the Conq these bb's already just sat at the way back on the map, raising the citadel only reinforces the playstyle. The lion's front guns have poor rear facing angles so you can kite anything without giving enough angle for everything to cit you. So you either have to sit way back and let others take fire for you or park yourself nose on and hope the rest of your team stays around to help.

 

I actually didn't mind the Monarch. It had good firing angles and the AP was useable.

 

It would have probably been better for the game if they had toned down something else and left the citadel where it was.

 

Guns are ok, saying the Conq has better guns is a bit strange seeing as they're the same guns , its just the conq gets another 3 of them.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, Commander_Ericson said:

Got to be honest I don't really understand why they raise the citadel. Along with the Conq these bb's already just sat at the way back on the map, raising the citadel only reinforces the playstyle. The lion's front guns have poor rear facing angles so you can kite anything without giving enough angle for everything to cit you. So you either have to sit way back and let others take fire for you or park yourself nose on and hope the rest of your team stays around to help.

The citadel raise was to make the ships more skill-based. Yes, you can still just spam HE from halfway across the map, but in this case, it doesn't change a thing. The issue is that if you took a RN BB into close quarters, they basically were almost German levels of stupid, where you could full broadside and not eat a cit. Same if you were midrange. Something like Monarch could broadside outtrade a Bismarck, just because it has higher dpm and neither eats cits.

 

Now, the ships reward proper angling. If you go in and can avoid citadels (which isn't extremely hard), you got repair buffs to help you stay afloat, while people who regularly broadside will now get punished for it.

[Commander_Ericson]

Except the Lion doesn't you can not angle to get all the guns on without giving too much angle and then you're just citadeled by any other bb. I've been trying it out both forward facing and kiting and it just doesn't work. The gun angles dont allow it.

 

The Monarch could angle just fine and it worked really well at kitting other bb's.

 

The Lion feels like how the the old american bb's used to be, but with worse gun angles. Give any side and you're toast. It's a pretty inflexible bb from what I've experienced. Great if you can sit back a bit and take a bit of fire, repair and repeat, but certainly at best a second line bb. I can't tank for long periods and if pushed doesn't really have any bite.