Lion is just utter Trash

[DrMechano]

The Lion is JUST awful...with the raised citadel meaning the Yamashi combo crap on her from all directions, 32mm of armour all over meaning she eats HE shells like a fat guy at a buffet and now probably the wonkiest dispersion at tier 9 mean that the Lion is now, in my opinion, probably the worst tier 9 available. The Soyez was a dream to play through, the Izumo is passable with very accurate guns, the Fat Freddy is...decent now..., the Iowa had its citadel lowered long ago. So yeah she is probably now the worst tier 9 BB.

[Nit0]

It's ok as a damage dealer, but absolutely not a good brawler. 

[HaachamaShipping]

FdG has similar accuracy. Just better reload with 4 guns forward vs Lion's 6. FdG has much better shell velocity though and shell velocity was what pissed me off about this ship. After KGV you get Monarch and suddenly AP turns from situational broadside blab to an actually useful standard ammo. Just to be crap again on Lion, where you'd be better off playing any other T9 BB if you want to use AP. In the end, Lion still is in my port, but I gave up on Conqueror and bought the Thunderer instead. No regrets.

[DrMechano]

3 hours ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

FdG has similar accuracy. Just better reload with 4 guns forward vs Lion's 6. FdG has much better shell velocity though and shell velocity was what pissed me off about this ship. After KGV you get Monarch and suddenly AP turns from situational broadside blab to an actually useful standard ammo. Just to be crap again on Lion, where you'd be better off playing any other T9 BB if you want to use AP. In the end, Lion still is in my port, but I gave up on Conqueror and bought the Thunderer instead. No regrets.

 

Also the FdG is MUCH harder to citadel than the Lion, which seems to get blapped from the oddest angles, not to mention the deck armor means she doesn't get penned for all angles by the Yamashi twins.

[pra3y]

12 hours ago, DrMechano said:

 

Also the FdG is MUCH harder to citadel than the Lion, which seems to get blapped from the oddest angles, not to mention the deck armor means she doesn't get penned for all angles by the Yamashi twins.

FDG doesnt have super heal or cruiser level detectability. FDG can also be citadelled more easily from a longer range. The "citadel immunity" only applies to close range engagement due to the turtleback armour.

[DrMechano]

16 minutes ago, pra3y said:

FDG doesnt have super heal or cruiser level detectability. FDG can also be citadelled more easily from a longer range. The "citadel immunity" only applies to close range engagement due to the turtleback armour.

See the super heal would be good but it's crippled by citadel hits...which the Lion seems to take a crap ton of from virtually any angle and in the current HE spam meta she is a touch more survivable since she doesn't NEED the superheal, cruiser detectability would be great IF she didn't often end up in CV games...where her AA feels..meh...at best.

[pra3y]

2 hours ago, DrMechano said:

See the super heal would be good but it's crippled by citadel hits...which the Lion seems to take a crap ton of from virtually any angle and in the current HE spam meta she is a touch more survivable since she doesn't NEED the superheal, cruiser detectability would be great IF she didn't often end up in CV games...where her AA feels..meh...at best.

It is kind of a different form of playstyle? You can't play it as a brawler nor some heavy punching range BB. Its kinda more like playing a Zao in a sense. You have high HE alpha, so u go about smacking enemy ships with yr HE and drop in and out of detection relying on island cover and yr very good stealth. You can tank some damage with yr super heal but not excessively so you shouldn't think that you can go full yolo. Monarch, Lion and Conq play roughly the same imo so if you don't enjoy the Lion you may not enjoy the conq.

 

My Lion stats out of 66 games compared to the server average:

 

Easy plane kills

[Nit0]

1 hour ago, pra3y said:

It is kind of a different form of playstyle? You can't play it as a brawler nor some heavy punching range BB. Its kinda more like playing a Zao in a sense. You have high HE alpha, so u go about smacking enemy ships with yr HE and drop in and out of detection relying on island cover and yr very good stealth. You can tank some damage with yr super heal but not excessively so you shouldn't think that you can go full yolo. Monarch, Lion and Conq play roughly the same imo so if you don't enjoy the Lion you may not enjoy the conq.

 

My Lion stats out of 66 games compared to the server average:

 

Easy plane kills

^^This

Lion is the extreme version of British battleships, since AP is meh compared to Monarch and Conqueror. So you are very much reliant on he spamming.

[HaachamaShipping]

9 hours ago, pra3y said:

Monarch, Lion and Conq play roughly the same imo so if you don't enjoy the Lion you may not enjoy the conq.

The Monarch can fire AP, because for T8, the AP is ok and the reload is stellar, so you compensate accuracy with RoF. The Lion has mediocre pen, mediocre accuracy and mediocre RoF, same with Conqueror. On the other side, monarch lacks the silly fire chance. as a result, Monarch is far more AP-heavy than anything thereafter. Lion and Conq are similar though and the very reason why I don't want a Conqueror.

 

9 hours ago, pra3y said:

It is kind of a different form of playstyle? You can't play it as a brawler nor some heavy punching range BB. Its kinda more like playing a Zao in a sense. You have high HE alpha, so u go about smacking enemy ships with yr HE and drop in and out of detection relying on island cover and yr very good stealth. You can tank some damage with yr super heal but not excessively so you shouldn't think that you can go full yolo.

Issue is, a Zao is a cruiser, a Lion is a BB. BB has a different role to fulfill. Thunderer for example would be straight up better than any supercruiser, but if you remove a BB from the frontline to do a Yoshino's job, that does have its consequences, as your other ships get shot to pieces and you cede map control, which your BB actually should not do. Something like Monarch for example, you can play at 13 km, and just use your good dpm to work things over with fast shell velocity AP, dropping off detection mostly just when necessary and abusing good repairs to tank when necessary. But on Lion, the lackluster quality of AP performance just raises the question, why play this ship, if you can play BBs that actually can do a BB's job? If you load HE, you can hurt cruisers, but less than if others use AP, if you load AP, pretty much every other BB at T9 does a better job. As a result, the Lion just seems there to soak up damage with silly heal and its offensive capabilities for anything but slowly roasting BBs is just mediocre to bad, however you look at it. That is not fun, nor would I consider it a great concept, compared to ships that just tank with armour and get some decent offensive qualities, like the Iowa with decent accuracy, FdG with dpm or Izumo with accuracy and penetration. Because to me, since FdG buffs, Lion has replaced FdG as the ship that is mostly a damage sponge and when it comes to dealing meaningful damage, it disappoints.

 

And it doesn't help that Yamato/Musashi can just citpen you from across the map at the weirdest angles, because they overmatch most of your ship and cit deck.

[Nit0]

Conqueror have much more reliable ap than Lion, the biggest mistake people do is to not use its ap when they should.

[HaachamaShipping]

2 hours ago, Nit0 said:

Conqueror have much more reliable ap than Lion, the biggest mistake people do is to not use its ap when they should.

It has the exact same 419 mm guns and accuracy, just 3 more of them though.

[Nit0]

7 hours ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

It has the exact same 419 mm guns and accuracy, just 3 more of them though.

And that helps, my own experience is that Conqueror AP shells can be a beast in the right situations (close to medium range). While Lion it's hopeless to rely on AP.

[Ysterpyp]

im still at QE , no interest in this line from the start

[HaachamaShipping]

7 hours ago, Nit0 said:

And that helps, my own experience is that Conqueror AP shells can be a beast in the right situations (close to medium range). While Lion it's hopeless to rely on AP.

Raises the question though, if I prefer FdG to Lion, why should I play Conqueror over GK? Thanks to recent buffs, the Germans even have same accuracy now.

 

The RN AP at T9 and T10 is pretty much just AP and has nothing going for it. If you play either ship at mid range, there is so little benefit to it, you might as well just go play an Iowa/Montana and enjoy having a better AP performance at these ranges. Or at T10, go play a Thunderer. The only thing Lion and Conqueror can do is derp HE on those bow-tankers, which can be useful, but overall, definitely not a playstyle that is very interesting to me.

[Evergreen]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe it's just you, being utter trash instead ?

[samphilconlor]

I've just got it so not much experience yet but the few games I have played I think I'm so relieved to be out of the Monarch I thought it was OK.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, Evergreen said:

Maybe it's just you, being utter trash instead ?

Or maybe we aren't in 2017 anymore and other ships that were released were either very strong (Alsace, Jean Bart, Musashi and Sovietsky Soyuz), while all older ones received major buffs? Not to mention that 2017 was a time when the worst HE spammer was a Des Moines followed by Hindenburg, CVs wouldn't just ignore AA and AP bombs wouldn't delete the Lion's hp pool. Yamato also wouldn't citpen the ship from any angle either.

 

Not to mention, you can have exceptional games in pretty much anything. On EU server the Lion has a record of 339k, FdG has 351k. Iowa sits on 465k...

[Nit0]

10 hours ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Raises the question though, if I prefer FdG to Lion, why should I play Conqueror over GK? Thanks to recent buffs, the Germans even have same accuracy now.

 

The RN AP at T9 and T10 is pretty much just AP and has nothing going for it. If you play either ship at mid range, there is so little benefit to it, you might as well just go play an Iowa/Montana and enjoy having a better AP performance at these ranges. Or at T10, go play a Thunderer. The only thing Lion and Conqueror can do is derp HE on those bow-tankers, which can be useful, but overall, definitely not a playstyle that is very interesting to me.

I agree with you, they don't have much more going for them than that. Conqueror you can be a little bit more flexible than Lion, but you are still going to mainly rely on the Lion playstyle of longrange HE spamming battleships. German battleships are much more fun, since they more fit the role of a traditional battleship (brawling and pushing).

[jss78]

I feel like too many people ignore the AP. I've deleted sooo many cruisers by using the good concealment and then putting an AP salvo into their side.

 

The HE spamming trick is one thing you can do, but too often people fail to fully analyse their ship.

 

Ultimately I never see a reason to play too far out of your concealment range. Even your HE salvos hit better (=do more damage) from <15 km, and you'll still have a comfortable margin to get to concealment and use your super heal. And playing closer you'll get more opportunities to use your AP to good effect.

[Jean_Bart]

On 12/17/2019 at 5:17 AM, DrMechano said:

 Lion is now, in my opinion, probably the worst tier 9 available.

Relax, FdG is much worse!

[DrMechano]

On 12/19/2019 at 6:08 PM, Evergreen said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe it's just you, being utter trash instead ?

 

You'll note that ALL of those videos are from before the citadel got raised and most of them, as mentioned are videos from before things like the Musashi, Sovetsky Soyuz etc. were introduced. So yeah...those videos are basically pointless evidence.

[Evergreen]

On 1/9/2020 at 3:23 PM, DrMechano said:

 

You'll note that ALL of those videos are from before the citadel got raised and most of them, as mentioned are videos from before things like the Musashi, Sovetsky Soyuz etc. were introduced. So yeah...those videos are basically pointless evidence.

Or is it the skills of the player ?

[Bjorn_Nordin]

Did 145k dmg last match before Conq. Will actually miss her a bit.

[DrMechano]

15 hours ago, Evergreen said:

Or is it the skills of the player ?

So no refute from the fact that your 'evidence' for the Lion being good being vastly outdated (as mentioned all of those videos were before the citadel was raised, prior to that it could only be citadelled from plunging fire at long range due to the underwater citadel. This in turn meant that the superheal was incredibly effective since it didn't get crippled by citadel hits which it does now) then and not only that but cherry picked to the highest degree. Yeah keep on doubling down my friend.

[Miscommunication]

I sold my Lion and finished the rest of the way to the Conqueror with free-exp. Had a few good games with it post-citadel nerf, but it just wasn't the same ship.