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Sunleader

How about a Secondary Yoshino ^^

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Inspired by the Secondary Yamato Topic. ^^

 

So why not do a Secondary Yoshino ? :)

On Paper at least it does look Viable.

 

The 100mm Double Turrets can be Tuned up to have 32mm Penetration by using IFHE and with the Secondary Upgrades and Skills can do 2000 DPS

Fun Fact for you. The HE Damage on the Yoshino Secondary Guns is Higher than on Harugumo. And the Reload is a bit Faster thanks to the Secondary Upgrades Available.

These Secondaries are Scary. They are Effectively like you Strap a Harugumo to each side of your Ship.

 

Using the Concealment Expert and Upgrade your Ship has a Concealment of about 12km with your Secondaries having a Range of about 9km.

So you have little Trouble of getting into Secondary Range for most Part.

 

 

The Big Problem is likely the Cruiser Armor and the Exposed Citadel.

Yoshino just isnt a Brawler. Her Armor is extremely Squishi. And thanks to her Fat A** you also cant just Present a Flat Broadside to BBs like a Smolensk and Show em your Middle Finger because your just so Thin that BB Shells will just Fly through your Citadel without doing anyhting...

 

Still. Might be a Valid Fun Build. *gg*

 

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Secondary spec Kiev B hull is obviously better. No citadel to worry about.

 

Actual serious reply: Wait with any secondary spec until the IFHE change.

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I didnt even know an IFHE Change was Planned in the First Place.

But thats no Matter. Wargaming usually is fair enough that if their Change makes Common Builds Invalid. They will give you a Free Respec.

And as IFHE is a very Common Skill for alot of DDs and Cruisers to Take. If they Changed it in a way that made Ships no longer capable of using to to Pen BBs Bow they will provide Free Respec for all Captains for a Week again or something like that.

 

Right now the 100mm can be nudged over 32mm with IFHE. So for now its a Valid Choice.

Moreover. As its the same Guns as Harugumo its unlikely they will change it to no longer work afterwards.

After all if they did. It would make several of the DDs incredible Weak over Night.

So whatever change they do. The 100mm Guns will likely Stay a Threat to be Reckoned with.

 

So potential Future Updates are Irrelevant for deciding on currently Interesting Builds :)

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Secondary skills need to be reworked.

 

i would change manual secs to be called enhance secs and drop it to 3 points and give the following:

15% buff to range and reload. 20% buff to accuracy and hp.

 

And then maybe seperate the sec skills from bft or aft and drop it to a 2 point skill and then just add more stuff to both skills to keep them viable for the points.

 

I think that would help with secs you could get over 12km with most ships with something like that i think.

 

Just need super georgia with 8.5km base sec range and extra 4 guns pls lol. (Along with other stuff of course).

’w’

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Secondary Hinden is less... Speschul build, both due to 25mm HE pen on day one and armor layout actually useful at short range brawls. That and 8 fishes per broadside which are WAY more convincing than some pew pew

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1 hour ago, CptBarney said:

Secondary skills need to be reworked.

 

i would change manual secs to be called enhance secs and drop it to 3 points and give the following:

15% buff to range and reload. 20% buff to accuracy and hp.

 

And then maybe seperate the sec skills from bft or aft and drop it to a 2 point skill and then just add more stuff to both skills to keep them viable for the points.

 

I think that would help with secs you could get over 12km with most ships with something like that i think.

 

Just need super georgia with 8.5km base sec range and extra 4 guns pls lol. (Along with other stuff of course).

’w’

 

I would actually Simply Propose to Increase Base Range of Secondary Guns by 2km for ALL Ships.

I like Secondaries. And I think they are Vastly Underused in this Game.

In Reality Graf Spee actually Fought enemy Cruisers by Focusing their Main Artillery on one Cruiser and the Secondary Guns on the other.

But in this Game the Range of Secondaries is just too low to actually use them on the vast Majority of Ships.

 

37 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Secondary Hinden is less... Speschul build, both due to 25mm HE pen on day one and armor layout actually useful at short range brawls. That and 8 fishes per broadside which are WAY more convincing than some pew pew

 

On this I Disagree.

I actually considered this when I got my Hindenburg.

 

You See. I actually have up to this Day. A Secondary Build on my Roon. And on the Roon this Works. Its Armor is very Good for Brawling. And it has a good Secondary Armament which also has good Firing Arcs to Fire at Targets while Angled.

The Torpedoes are not that Good but also not that Bad.

The only Drawback. Is that as a T9 Cruiser you dont have the 6km Secondary Base Range which is Unfortunate. Because the Roon would a Great Secondary Build Cruiser otherwise.

 

So when I got to Hindenburg. I actually considered using a Secondary Build on her as well.

But the Reload on the 105mm Guns is not very Good. And while with IFHE you can Push them over the 32mm Threshold. Their Damage Output is just not worth mentioning.

 

Hindenburg with Full Secondary Build gets you a Secondary Broadside of 1326 DPS and will give 33x4% Chances on causing a Fire on the Enemy Ship every 10 Seconds.

Roon with Full Secondary Build gets you a Secondary Broadside of 1414 DPS and will give you 7x7% + 25x4% Chances on causing a Fire on the Enemy Ship every 10 Seconds.

Yoshino with Full Secondary Build gets you a Secondary Broadside of 2098 DPS and will give you 37x5% Chances on causing a Fire on the Enemy Ship every 10 Seconds.

 

 

The Worse however is the Armor Layout of the Hindenburg. You have a Big Fat Weakspot right in the Front of your Ship which makes it Incredible Easy to Citadel you when your Closing the Distance.

And which Generally Results in your being Sunk extremely Fast if you Brawl against a Battleship in the Hindenburg.

The Roon does not have this Problem. Her only Bigger Weakspot is in the Rear of the Ship (At least According to the Guys here in the Forum) which is just not something you will hit from the Front properly and which can be kept out the Enemy Reach pretty easily.

Thanks to that. You can actually Brawl enemy Battleships with her. As you can Ricochet Shells or let them Overpen Depending on your Position.

 

And this is also why I am not sure about Yoshino working out on this.

Yoshino does have vastly Superior Firepower on her Secondaries. And also a better Chance to cause Fires.

Needless to say. The Yoshino also comes with 8 Fishes per Side. And these Fishes are Faster and much more Convincing than the Ones on Hindenburg.

 

But just like Hindenburg. The Armor might just make it Impossible to get her into Close enough Range to actually make use of it.

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7 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

On this I Disagree.

I actually considered this when I got my Hindenburg.

 

You See. I actually have up to this Day. A Secondary Build on my Roon. And on the Roon this Works. Its Armor is very Good for Brawling. And it has a good Secondary Armament which also has good Firing Arcs to Fire at Targets while Angled.

The Torpedoes are not that Good but also not that Bad.

The only Drawback. Is that as a T9 Cruiser you dont have the 6km Secondary Base Range which is Unfortunate. Because the Roon would a Great Secondary Build Cruiser otherwise.

 

So when I got to Hindenburg. I actually considered using a Secondary Build on her as well.

But the Reload on the 105mm Guns is not very Good. And while with IFHE you can Push them over the 32mm Threshold. Their Damage Output is just not worth mentioning.

 

Hindenburg with Full Secondary Build gets you a Secondary Broadside of 1326 DPS and will give 33x4% Chances on causing a Fire on the Enemy Ship every 10 Seconds.

Roon with Full Secondary Build gets you a Secondary Broadside of 1414 DPS and will give you 7x7% + 25x4% Chances on causing a Fire on the Enemy Ship every 10 Seconds.

Yoshino with Full Secondary Build gets you a Secondary Broadside of 2098 DPS and will give you 37x5% Chances on causing a Fire on the Enemy Ship every 10 Seconds.

 

 

The Worse however is the Armor Layout of the Hindenburg. You have a Big Fat Weakspot right in the Front of your Ship which makes it Incredible Easy to Citadel you when your Closing the Distance.

And which Generally Results in your being Sunk extremely Fast if you Brawl against a Battleship in the Hindenburg.

The Roon does not have this Problem. Her only Bigger Weakspot is in the Rear of the Ship (At least According to the Guys here in the Forum) which is just not something you will hit from the Front properly and which can be kept out the Enemy Reach pretty easily.

Thanks to that. You can actually Brawl enemy Battleships with her. As you can Ricochet Shells or let them Overpen Depending on your Position.

 

And this is also why I am not sure about Yoshino working out on this.

Yoshino does have vastly Superior Firepower on her Secondaries. And also a better Chance to cause Fires.

Needless to say. The Yoshino also comes with 8 Fishes per Side. And these Fishes are Faster and much more Convincing than the Ones on Hindenburg.

 

But just like Hindenburg. The Armor might just make it Impossible to get her into Close enough Range to actually make use of it.

Secondary build even on most suitable ships is "situational" at best and "memes" in 99% cases.

 

And whole "dps calculation" doesn't take into account 90% of the shells landing in water unless you're uncomfortably close, but then amount of shells hitting armored belt is also uncomfortable, so in final result you might as well run with captain butt naked instead secondaries. As well firing arcs, which are... not that good on Yoshino due to all guns being in line, instead superfiring.

 

If you want "armor weakspot", check... any other cruiser than Hinderburg, you can't get better protection than citadel with turtleback, ending at waterline AND 40mm reiforced bow section, conveniently placed to protect citadel bulkhead when advancing at an right angle.

 

Here is hint what is "wrong" with Yoshino torpedoes when it comes to "convincing" enemies at short range

shot-19-12-08-08-48-49-0194.jpg

 

Where Yoshino armor shines though is fighting bots, as they aim at center of mass. Due to sheer length of the ship, chances of shells hitting front bulkhead are surprisingly small when advancing at an angle.

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I warned you people that this clan simply destroys one's sanity... 

 

First secondary Yamato, now secondary yoshino. What's next? Gunboat Shima??? 

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11 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

Secondary Yoshino? 

 

You got guts kid, I'll give you that :Smile_trollface:

He... doesn't know protocol how to play ship with actual citadel so:Smile_smile:

 

And B-65 is "citadel first, ship second"

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24 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Secondary build even on most suitable ships is "situational" at best and "memes" in 99% cases.

 

And whole "dps calculation" doesn't take into account 90% of the shells landing in water unless you're uncomfortably close, but then amount of shells hitting armored belt is also uncomfortable, so in final result you might as well run with captain butt naked instead secondaries. As well firing arcs, which are... not that good on Yoshino due to all guns being in line, instead superfiring.

 

If you want "armor weakspot", check... any other cruiser than Hinderburg, you can't get better protection than citadel with turtleback, ending at waterline AND 40mm reiforced bow section, conveniently placed to protect citadel bulkhead when advancing at an right angle.

 

Here is hint what is "wrong" with Yoshino torpedoes when it comes to "convincing" enemies at short range

shot-19-12-08-08-48-49-0194.jpg

 

Where Yoshino armor shines though is fighting bots, as they aim at center of mass. Due to sheer length of the ship, chances of shells hitting front bulkhead are surprisingly small when advancing at an angle.

 

Not Contesting that. To begin with I am considering it as a Fun Build :)

Not as something I would consider for Competitive use.

 

The DPS Calculation does matter. Because Accuracy is the same for most Secondaries.

So while of course you will never reach that DPS Value in actual Game. Comparing the Values will also tell you how Different Values are in the Game.

For example. If in the Situation you hit maybe 1 out of 5 Shells of your Secondaries. Then Yoshino will still do 400 DPS while Hindenburg will only do around 250 DPS :)

 

Hindenburgs Secondaries cant Superfire by the way. The Reason is they sit inside Ditches and cant Fire Forward at all. By the time they get out of the Ditch the second Turret will not need to Fire above as he can just fire aside from the first.

So this is not really an Advantage.

This is by the way one of the Reasons why I liked the Roon as a Secondary Cruiser. It has 1 Twin 150mm Turret in the Front which can Fire even bow on. And the angle for firing the First Side Turret is extremely narrow allowing it to usually also Fire right away.

The Turrets behind that are Spaced pretty good allowing them to Fire over each other at low Angling already.

 

On the Torps. Beep.

This is the Sectors for Torpedoes on Yoshi (left) and Hinden (right)

 

551771393_TurretArcs.jpg.4c871624423d17abb83f0eb118be69b3.jpg

 

Yoshino actually has better Arcs. Her Torps are a bit more to the Rear so at absolute point Blank Range the Hinden might be better. But the moment you get to 2-3km Distance the Yoshino thanks to the somewhat better Angle for her Forward Torpedo. (And also due to the higher Speed and Massively Higher Damage per Torp) will actually take the Cake here :)

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Kenjiro_ said:

I warned you people that this clan simply destroys one's sanity... 

 

First secondary Yamato, now secondary yoshino. What's next? Gunboat Shima??? 

 

Thats a Great Idea actually.

Good thing your in the Clan to give us such Inspirations *gg*

 

Its not a Harugumo of course. But with you use the Firing Training Skills and the Fire Increase Chance you actually get a pretty scary Firedevil.

If you pair it with Torpedo Acceleration Skill and the Short Ranged Super Fast Torps. You might actually have an Quite Potent Brawler on your Hands which absolutely nobody will Expect when he Sees a Shima.

And as your Concealment is absolutely Good. Your also the one Choosing the Fight. And by the time an enemy DD Sees you. Your Super Fast Torpedoes are almost Impossible to Dodge *gg*

 

I shall Consider it for some testing :cap_cool:

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

If in the Situation you hit maybe 1 out of 5 Shells of your Secondaries. Then Yoshino will still do 400 DPS while Hindenburg will only do around 250 DPS :)

Obviously, 150 dps more for "feature" to go back to port in an instant is totally worth it. Especially when dealing with ships having 5 or 6 digit amount of hp:cap_book:

 

 

2 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Yoshino actually has better Arcs. Her Torps are a bit more to the Rear so at absolute point Blank Range the Hinden might be better. But the moment you get to 2-3km Distance the Yoshino thanks to the somewhat better Angle for her Forward Torpedo. (And also due to the higher Speed and Massively Higher Damage per Torp) will actually take the Cake here :)

You still can't launch second set of fishes. And by time you get to launch them, crew in citadel will suffer significant emotional event.

 

And 12km torps are "brave" option, usual "safe" option of 20km torps have 62kts AND 2.5km detection, which is considerably worse than German fishing department.

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3 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Obviously, 150 dps more for "feature" to go back to port in an instant is totally worth it. Especially when dealing with ships having 5 or 6 digit amount of hp:cap_book:

 

 

You still can't launch second set of fishes. And by time you get to launch them, crew in citadel will suffer significant emotional event.

 

And 12km torps are "brave" option, usual "safe" option of 20km torps have 62kts AND 2.5km detection, which is considerably worse than German fishing department.

 

1.

Its per Second. Which is quite Significant. And it becomes higher as you get closer :)

2.

And why exactly would I want to Watch a Secondary Set of Torps ?

May Torps do 20k Damage per Torpedo. And will Hit much easier than the German Torps.

So why should I expose my Broadside unecessarily ?

3.

We are Talking about a Close Quarters Combat Build here.

If I wanted to Play Yoshino as Long Range HE Spammer the 20km Torps make Sense.

But we are talking about a Secondary Build here.

So 12km is the only Option worth considering.

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5 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

Its per Second. Which is quite Significant. And it becomes higher as you get closer :)

2.

And why exactly would I want to Watch a Secondary Set of Torps ?

May Torps do 20k Damage per Torpedo. And will Hit much easier than the German Torps.

So why should I expose my Broadside unecessarily ?

3.

We are Talking about a Close Quarters Combat Build here.

If I wanted to Play Yoshino as Long Range HE Spammer the 20km Torps make Sense.

But we are talking about a Secondary Build here.

So 12km is the only Option worth considering.

1. if anything becomes lower, as amount of shells hitting torpedo belt/armored belt increases.

2. imagine not everyone willing to show broadside to embrace spreadful of torps or *gasp* even taking countermeasures. Did I mention some ships tend to have more hp and actually useful torpedo belt?:cap_hmm:

3. dying in 2nd minute with "noob team" in chat shortly afterwards is an option too I guess

 

in terms of speschul builds, you might as well go with secondary Neptune. She got one Daring per broadside, so on paper you got quite a firehose strapped to quite an AP hose:cap_book:

Or Secondary Hakuryu, who could say no to 50% more dakka than Yoshino

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4 minutes ago, Panocek said:

1. if anything becomes lower, as amount of shells hitting torpedo belt/armored belt increases.

2. imagine not everyone willing to show broadside to embrace spreadful of torps or *gasp* even taking countermeasures. Did I mention some ships tend to have more hp and actually useful torpedo belt?:cap_hmm:

3. dying in 2nd minute with "noob team" in chat shortly afterwards is an option too I guess

 

1.

Unlikely. Otherwise German BBs Secondaries would have the same Issue. And they dont.

In General they deal good enough Damage.

Moreover. If someone really wants to Expose his Side Armor Belt to me instead of Showing me his Bow Armor. I still do have 300mm Guns with AP. Just saying *gg*

2.

Which is exactly why the Yoshinos Torps are Better. The German Torps are Rubbish. 90% of the Time you hit 1 Torp on a BB because they are slow and if the Enemy Predicts them can turn into them which with their Low Damage and with the Enemies good Torpedo Belt basicly results in them doing like 8k damage and thats it.

The Yoshino Torps are Faster. And have higher Range. They are much less Predictable and much more Powerful if you turn into them and take a Hit from them.

Moreover. I actually see alot of Players which wont realize that you didnt fire the Second Launcher due to it being more to the Rear and thus afterwards turning out to get full firepower. Which makes for a Nasty Surprise if he actually manages to get around you *gg*

3.

With Hindenburg yes. The Weakspot in the Front tends to get you Citadeled out of Existence pretty often very early on if you try to Brawl *gg*

And the 6km Torps mean that you actually have very little in the way of keeping an Enemy from going around you unless your effectively already next to him ^^

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it's kinda not to recommend, simply coz armor and secrange. the range is too short to make it work in comparison to the armor u have. u dont wanna go that close in a yoshino to anywhere, where even not too closely there is a bb. also keep in mind: with full ifhe sec build u cant have CE.... man-secs, aft, ifhe. no space for CE.

 

might work in latematch engagements, but b4 one will suffer from that missing CE is my bet.

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2 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

If someone really wants to Expose his Side Armor Belt to me instead of Showing me his Bow Armor. I still do have 300mm Guns with AP. Just saying *gg*

Exactly something you have to do in Yoshie to actually make use of your "secondaries", as their firing arcs are almost identical to main guns, and those are set "just right" to get citadels under front turrets.

 

Speaking of one, 310mm guns, just like whole concept of large cruisers combine worst of both worlds

-need 51mm effective  armor to arm the fuse, so against cruisers or broadside all-or-nothing armored BBs you will get overpens only, while you can't overmatch any relevant armor thresholds AND you can't score AP pens on DDs

-lengthy reload, even on Yoshino and with reload mod you still have 16.3s

-AP pen is insufficient to punch through T10 BB armored belts unless presented perfect broadside and below 10km just to be sure, only Glorious ships can pose credible threat to battleships in terms of penetration

-178mm plating can protect against only against CA guns and above 15km, preferably with some angle to it

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1 hour ago, Panocek said:

in terms of speschul builds, you might as well go with secondary Neptune. She got one Daring per broadside, so on paper you got quite a firehose strapped to quite an AP hose:cap_book:

I did:Smile_teethhappy: Secondary Edinburgh works better though.

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