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Ace42X

Ugh, Neptune

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Is it me, or is this ship a massive liability?

I saw a Jingles vid, which gave me a bit more confidence, but I still find this ship a disaster to play.
Yeah, I get that it has excellent *potential* DPS, but there's just so many obstacles to dealing that.

Firstly:  I'm scared to fire the guns on the damned thing.

The armour's so bad and the citadel so vulnerable that the ~15 secs of visibility is plenty time for any BB to take a snap-shot / blind fire and potentially devastate me from any angle and distance, and that's if I just risk one salvo - to make use of the DPS you're adding nearly 5 secs to that per salvo.

If I fire from my (increased radius, thanks to CO skill, but still too few puffs to keep the enemy guessing) smoke, I get still blind-fired and devastated.  I can't move forwards-and-backwards in smoke as if it were a DD because the deceleraton on it is so sluggish that it takes forever to shift direction.
If there's an enemy within ~7km, my smoke is redundant anyway, and I'm a sitting duck.

And that's before you get to yoloing hydros and radar cruisers making smoke temporarily redundant.

Okay, so we can adopt the most boring and unsatisfactory tactic in the game - island camping - to try and deal with this.
That helps a fair bit, although it is incredibly passive and leaves your big pig super-exposed to anyone who can get an angle / vision on you - but it introduces you to some new problems:
The enemy can simply angle against you, because no HE, at which point two-thirds of your shells turn into ricochets or shatters and the rest are subject to damage saturation problems ; and you can't control the range to your target, at which point your floaty shells take so long to reach the enemy that only someone determined to not change course one tiny bit will get hit by them.
This is exacerbated by the fact that often your team will opt to use you as a human shield and move directly behind you - thereby guaranteeing that an angle against them is an angle against you and vice-versa.

 

This is how I survive games, but with a crappy 90k damage output at best, which at Tier9 is just not good enough value; and the average is even worse if my team-mates just gift the enemy an angle on the islands and I end up getting pinned down and blapped, or if the action just doesn't fold out in my favour and I just get whiffed long-range shots and non-pens.

Secondly:  I'm scared to fire the Torpedoes on the damned thing.
If I'm trying to keep to a second line and support my team, I'm pretty damned sure that they can and will randomly jink into any torpedoes I let loose.  This is aggravated by friendly DDs' habit of picking a point about 3km in front of my smokescreen to smoke up - at which point any attempt for them to move forward or backwards in their smokescreen completely shuts down my field of fire.  We all know that a friendly DD *will* do a 180 and activate their speedboost for no other reason than to catch a friendly torp or two; but even aside from the risk of killing them, I don't want to accidentally deny them area if they're trying to dodge and weave incoming enemy fire.

Thirdly:  I'm scared to drive the damned thing.
It's feels so big and exposed that trying to kite in it seems doomed to failure - especially given the terrible gun-handling at long-range, and its vulnerability to cits from pretty much any angle.  It's detection's bad enough that it's easy for the enemy to get the jump on you (especially without a 16cp captain for me to get RPF on it), at which point you're on the back foot trying to avoid getting deleted rather than trying to use the DPS to out-trade any given enemy.  The angles on it just seem bad too, with you having to offer a horrible amount of broadside to get all your guns uncovered.

If you're at a speed you can manouvre, you're not at a speed you can smoke up and vice versa.  It's a massive ballache.  Even at 30+ kts the thing just feels cumbersome and awkward even though it's notionally faster than my Eugen / Hipper and shouldn' be losing speed in turns.

 

Fourthly:  I'm scared to sit still in the damned thing.
It supposedly has improved acceleration, but I can't seem to get any value out of it, the deceleration seems particularly bad.  It's so damned big that the enemy has to torpedo it from miles away and at a favourable angle in order to miss you.  I had a Colbert spamming continuous HE on me while I was in smoke, I was scared to return fire (aside from the fact I wasn't confident of hitting him at max range) because even without giving him continual tracers to go on, he was able to predict and lead my undetected ship's movement in the smoke before I could shift between forward and reverse to try and juke.  The bad angles are even more frustrating in smoke because it's that much harder to keep an enemy ship you're targeting out of your blindspot and thus cutting your DPS in half and denying you torps on them - unless you want to offer up a broadside, at which point you're insta-deleted to blindfire.


The thing just seems like a big ball of suck that relies on the enemy ignoring you and / or walking blindly into an ambush you've set up in order to achieve anything.  I could see there being more value to it in a div where you can co-ordinate smokes, spotting, and having a big BB bully anyone who tries to evict you from a position - but in randoms it just feels like an exercise in futility.

I've watched several youtube videos, and I really can't see what they're doing to create value other than have the enemy just ignore the totally immobile broadside Neptune sitting in a tiny puddle of smoke spamming continous damage on them - something which just doesn't happen in the games I'm playing in.

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lol I love the entire British cruiser line. They are all fun, but as Bear said. Not all ships are for all and I certainly do not play my British cruisers like I see most players do. To me smoke isn't a tool for hiding in, it's a tool for breaking detection and change location to strike again. I guess I play too much DD to think of it as a cruiser. :D

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1 minute ago, Flammable_Bunny said:

lol I love the entire British cruiser line. They are all fun, but as Bear said. Not all ships are for all and I certainly do not play my British cruisers like I see most players do. To me smoke isn't a tool for hiding in, it's a tool for breaking detection and change location to strike again. I guess I play too much DD to think of it as a cruiser. :D

For me it's a consumable to throw out to get radar. In general, smoke or not, islands are much better tool to work with than a smokecloud imo.

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8 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

The thing just seems like a big ball of suck that relies on the enemy ignoring you and / or walking blindly into an ambush you've set up in order to achieve anything.  I could see there being more value to it in a div where you can co-ordinate smokes, spotting, and having a big BB bully anyone who tries to evict you from a position - but in randoms it just feels like an exercise in futility.

That is what it is. However.... 

 

- You should NOT sit behind your DDs... 

- what you do is find a nice rock on the flank and sit behind that...

- ...in such a way that you can shoot OVER that rock and let it rain on cap & behind.

 

I melted two BBs like that, and a cruiser. Before they got me, of course. 

That is when I (almost) killed the cruiser, he died to the flooding (yeah, it's just a fleshwound and I had that often). 

The ship is very hard to play, and I sold it now that I have Minotaur (you get most T10 anyway). 

However... it is VERY dakka-dakka if you know how to find the occasion. 

 

And yes 90k is not enough. It is meant not to be enough, too.

You're supposed to run Premium account above T8, and a good (perma)camo. 

That is how WG makes money. If you can't do well enough, you play the lower tiers to grid some credits. 

This is how it is supposed to work... buy premium ship, grind credits so you can be Top Dog for a while. 

It pays for the WG vodka. WG staff also has t make some sort of living... :Smile_trollface:

 

I do not think of the RN CLs as cruisers, they are more like fat DDs. 

And I'm not very good either, so I have the same problem as you. 

Wishing you much strength to get to Mino... just as flimsy, but even more dakka dakka :Smile_playing:

(I guess I'll find out how that goes though) :Smile_hiding:

 

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Neptune was a pain in the :etc_swear:, and I spent a fair chunk of exp boosters to get past it quickly. Minotaur is well worth it, though.

 

Its main issue is that it's got significantly worse concealment than the Edinburgh before it and the Minotaur after it. There are so many things that work in those ships that just doesn't in the Neptune. IMO it works better if you play it more like an American CL, using islands for cover as much as possible. The other ships in the line are more forgiving when shooting from smoke in the open.

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I love the Neptune, concealment is bad compared to the other ships, but stilla good boat.

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I either have great games or get blapped, learning to adjust to the enemy line up now, if there's radar i'll sit on my hands a little until they have been spotted and play outside their range, no radar and i'll play closer in and use the smoke to back up dd's. You can have great games if you use cover to limit the number of ships that can attack you, melt what you can and fade away.
that 6.6 smoke firing penalty is your most important number to bear in mind when chosing where to set up.

she can be great fun being aggressive in, charging in throwing torps and ambushing from around islands.

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25 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

IMO it works better if you play it more like an American CL, using islands for cover as much as possible. The other ships in the line are more forgiving when shooting from smoke in the open.


I got through the Edinburgh mainly by playing it a bit like a Cleveland and throwing radar on it.  It was a tolerable grind (I'm 3 wins short of an even W/L ratio - and that includes games trying to get CO specced for the ship and unlocking modules, IIRC), but not the most enjoyable.  I'd quite like to have run Neptune in a radar build, but its large detection precludes radar-trapping and it's just so insanely squishy that evicting DDs from smoke is needlessly high-risk.

There's so many ways I could find the boat workable - radar and concealment ranges being equalized one way or the other; putting the radar into the heal or hydro slots; increasing the radar duration so it's more punishing; improving the deceleration; giving the smoke some extra puffs; slightly improved gun angles or traverse, etc.
But as it stands, it just seems to be a roadblock to getting the straight-upgrade into Mino.  Which is a really cynical attempt to squeeze microtransactions out of the playerbase and makes the game that little bit worse.

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3 minutes ago, Ace42X said:


I got through the Edinburgh mainly by playing it a bit like a Cleveland and throwing radar on it.  It was a tolerable grind, but not the most enjoyable.  I'd quite like to have run Neptune in a radar build, but its large detection precludes radar-trapping and it's just so insanely squishy that evicting DDs from smoke is needlessly high-risk.

There's so many ways I could find the boat workable - radar and concealment ranges being equalized one way or the other; putting the radar into the heal or hydro slots; increasing the radar duration so it's more punishing; improving the deceleration; giving the smoke some extra puffs; slightly improved gun angles or traverse, etc.
But as it stands, it just seems to be a roadblock to getting the straight-upgrade into Mino.  Which is a really cynical attempt to squeeze microtransactions out of the playerbase and makes the game that little bit worse.

I used the Neptune with radar (before I reset the line and slacked off regrinding them) and it's best if you treat it like a Cleveland or Seattle, who also cannot radar up quite to their detection range. Try to consider the target's mentality and what they will do. Already with Edinburgh, I'd try to set up around corners where it'd basically be an ambush so the enemy is a good bit in my radar range already before they light me up and I radar. Naturally, for Neptune this'd work still. Otherwise, pushing up to smoked up threats or just treating your radar still as an area denial tool from behind obstacles works too. Lastly, enough people don't pay enough attention about radar ranges and especially with Neptune noone expects a Neptune radar. Many DDs will push up, just hoping to get a good spot to torp your eventual smoke or to deprive you with your smoke firing penalty and while being caught out is painful, often enough radaring after a short while reveals the culprit.

 

Also, for buffing radar duration, with radar mod, the duration already is plenty long. I don't think the ship needs much more radar duration. I for my part didn't like the ship in the beginning, went through a harsh learning experience playing radar Nep in Arms Race ranked (as it was the only T9 radar ship I had) and restarted playing it just for fun when I got the AL Neptune captain to put on it and honestly, it is quite derpy, but it can be pretty fun, especially when you really start getting into the fine adjustments of maneuvering a ship as big and as gliding as this thing.

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Neptune used to be better imo. Too many people learned to shoot into smoke (also thanks to the marker on the minimap) and overall a more campier meta.

Ive been only playing Radar Mino, and it feels less vulnerable than Smoke Mino, if you manage to cover your angles. The biggest upside is, that people shoot your belt all the time. Ive bounced so many Kremlin shots aswell its kinda funny (Kremlins super dispersion works against it if they aim at the wrong section^^).

If you sit in your smoke, it gives you a wrong feeling of being "safe". Not to mention, a DD in range will throw torps your way because the smoke just says "Im sitting here". even if you dodge em, if you have to leave your smoke its kinda useless.

 

The problem however, as you rightfully noticed, is the horrible concealment from Neptune. It cant stealth radar the same was as Mino/Edin, alltho the window of being spotted compared to radar range is like couple of hundred meters right? I havent tried Radar Neptune ever, but i guess you need even better positioning compared to Minotaur. Sure you could try it tho, and learn how to bounce incoming shots and what islands work for you as cover.

On the plusside: Using your torps seems to work better if you dont sit still in a smoke all the time, since you will get your opportunites more often (alltho less for Neptune, because of the bad concealment. But definetely for Mino)

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16 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

I used the Neptune with radar (before I reset the line and slacked off regrinding them) and it's best if you treat it like a Cleveland or Seattle, who also cannot radar up quite to their detection range.  (...) went through a harsh learning experience playing radar Nep in Arms Race ranked (as it was the only T9 radar ship I had) and restarted playing it just for fun when I got the AL Neptune captain to put on it and honestly, it is quite derpy, but it can be pretty fun, especially when you really start getting into the fine adjustments of maneuvering a ship as big and as gliding as this thing.


The only reason I'm posting is because I want to keep my AL Neptune cap in it, otherwise I'd've just shrugged and FXPd past it ;)

I thought Cleveland (and AL Montpelier) could get equalised radar and concealement if they mount concealment mod + CE skill?  Pretty sure my win-rate's gone down (but my average damage and kills-per-game has gone up) since swapping CE for IFHE on both of them while trying to farm the next 4sp.

All of the "Neptune's a beast, look at this DPS!" vids I've seen have involved going smoke (which is where I'm going to go with Mino and Dunkirk captain), so that's where I've been building (especially given how many times I got blapped behind an island as soon as literally anyone gets even momentary vision on me).  It's nice to know at least someone thinks the alternative is even somewhat playable.
 

14 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

The problem however, as you rightfully noticed, is the horrible concealment from Neptune. It cant stealth radar the same was as Mino/Edin, alltho the window of being spotted compared to radar range is like couple of hundred meters right?

 

300 with full concealment, I think?  Which isn't a lot, but when getting spotted yourself means insta-deletion, and getting a DD to stay 300m closer to you than that for 30 full seconds might mean heading full-speed towards them to stop them from escaping, that is often a very binary perimeter between being alive and being dead.

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Especially when you are struggeling with Neptune - dont try a radar build. I play Radar on Edin & Mino but on Neptune I still pick smoke.

 

Play it like Fiji but beware of radar and torps. Id like to keep a DD between me and the enemy fleet.

 

That beeing said: Neptune IS powercreeped. Over the years, my influence on the games shrinked as did my WR. The Battlecruisers on T9 shift the balance. You bring a Neptune, that relies on beeing hidden, while the enemy push a Alaska or Kronshtadt in, that tanks and has radar on top. Also: if you dislike Neptune compared to Fiji/Edin, chances are, Mino is not going to be much better for you. Yes, concealment is better but Mino has again other problems. the huge dakka rate makes it much easier for ppl to blind fire you. Expect that to happen much more often then it do to you in Neptune. So dropping the line right there, as Bear suggested, might be an option... No use in forcing something, just play something that suits you more.

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I also had a love/hate relationship with Neptune and found it hard to play her consistently well. Sold her now and have Mino, which I find much easier to play, always with radar. You can really play Mino as a big DD with radar and lots of dakadaka :cap_rambo:

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1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

Firstly:  I'm scared to fire the guns on the damned thing.

Secondly:  I'm scared to fire the Torpedoes on the damned thing.

Thirdly:  I'm scared to drive the damned thing.

Fourthly:  I'm scared to sit still in the damned thing.

I think one can say a lot about WoWs, but that it scares players? :cap_yes:

  • Smoke is big enough to move around slowly and UK CL have good acceleration/deceleration
  • do not launch torps when a friendly is in front of you, just look at your screen/minimap
  • she is not a kiting ship, unless you kite with torps, use your DD as spotters, do not sail where there are no friendly DD
  • do not sit still, move in smoke, or stay behind an island

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According to something i've read or watched a while back....its there to make you suffer and handicap you so you learn how to survive before you get rewarded with a Minotaur.

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49 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

UK CL have good deceleration

image.png.a3a14500d765af8068ccce035ee1e7e9.png

No they do not, they glide like theyre on rails or something. I think anyone here glided out of his fresh smoke atleast once in this thing.

2 hours ago, Ace42X said:

This is how I survive games, but with a crappy 90k damage output at best

90k in a tier 9 is top 100 players' average damage, just saying. It is far from bad.

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11 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

No they do not, they glide like theyre on rails or something. I think anyone here glided out of his fresh smoke atleast once in this thing.

 

Glad it's not just me who finds this:  Even at 1/4 speed to lay smoke I found myself glide at full ship's length out of the smoke by accident a few games back.

 

11 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

90k in a tier 9 is top 100 players' average damage, just saying. It is far from bad.


Eh, I wish that was my average.  My average is at 47k - which isn't too surprising given that my games are feast-or-famine between 90k "meh" games and getting zoned out of the match so heavily I struggle to deal 10k or else get nuked out of the water before I can do anything.

The weirdest thing is that I've somehow got a 57% win-rate (with a 1.14 destruction ratio), despite losing matches where I score highly and winning matches where I've done next to nothing and been carried - which I guess is a testament to how passively I've been forced to play with this ship:  I only get to contribute when everyone else is getting wrecked and I'm getting nuked when the enemy team is over-extending and thus getting punished by team-mates.  Not exactly satisfying though.

 

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Use smoke and islands. Be aware of potential hostile radar ships and shoot the superstructure of BBs. If BBs get too close use your 8 torps at them. 

 

This is my best advice

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1 hour ago, Ace42X said:


The only reason I'm posting is because I want to keep my AL Neptune cap in it, otherwise I'd've just shrugged and FXPd past it ;)

I thought Cleveland (and AL Montpelier) could get equalised radar and concealement if they mount concealment mod + CE skill?  Pretty sure my win-rate's gone down (but my average damage and kills-per-game has gone up) since swapping CE for IFHE on both of them while trying to farm the next 4sp.

All of the "Neptune's a beast, look at this DPS!" vids I've seen have involved going smoke (which is where I'm going to go with Mino and Dunkirk captain), so that's where I've been building (especially given how many times I got blapped behind an island as soon as literally anyone gets even momentary vision on me).  It's nice to know at least someone thinks the alternative is even somewhat playable.

Neptune dps is pretty good and no joke, just getting the best use out of it is hard. The main reason I went radar over smoke on most RN CLs that can do so was that I started to rely mostly on terrain anyway, because smoke seemed a decent tool, but you really need a good position for that where you have enemies that cannot simply angle, where the enemy is not falling back outside your gun range or pushing to the point you have to disengage and abandon the smoke before you get overrun. That was my impression and murdering a lolibote in a few seconds seemed to me more of a useful contribution than trying to get huge damage numbers on battleships.

 

With Neptune thus, I often don't use the dpm to get a shitton of damage in sustained engagements, but to make the life of those radared end faster. Because even if certain aspects of the ship are questionable, the dpm is certainly not and when you aren't getting shot at and can use all your guns, you can let it rain shells like few other cruisers can. And catching a DD or a smoked up cruiser offguard can let to them evaporating due to fast firing guns. Just unlike with Mino, you really need to have them trained on the enemy already, no swinging them around in mere seconds.

1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

Especially when you are struggeling with Neptune - dont try a radar build. I play Radar on Edin & Mino but on Neptune I still pick smoke.

This though. Radar Nep can work, but it might be quite hard.

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2 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said:

No they do not, they glide like theyre on rails or something. I think anyone here glided out of his fresh smoke atleast once in this thing.

 

This. And is it me or does it feel like some time ago Mino (and other RN CLs) had a better (but still not awesome) deaccelaration? I could swear they feel heavier these days...

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