der - die - das ... the 'gender' of German ships, ultimately explained.

[HentaiSquirrel]

Preliminary remarks:

- Re. 'teh gender discourse'... I don't give a [intercourse, drastically] about whatever gender of whoever.  Hell, I don't even care what species you are, as long as you don't treat someone as something.

- Since all sorts of nouns are -if at all- gendered differently in different languages imo it would be ridiculous to expect anybody to get it all right in any language that's not their native.

 

Now that that's out of the way...

_____________________________________________________________________________

 

 

There seems to be some confusion regarding the gender of ships in the German language.

And since I've heard far more smartasses giving wrong 'explanations' than anyone getting it right... here's my 2 ct.*

 

In English all ships 'are female'. That's easy. (Afaik while 'ship' is actually a neuter noun a particular ship is always referred to as 'she'/'her' by convention. Plz correct me if I'm wrong here).

Example: "I just landed a 40k dev strike on a Duke of York - she was giving me full broadside and and deserved a paddlin' "

 

And  in German it is... ta-daaa: - exactly the same : )

 

No really, it's actually that easy. Regardless of the name of the ship. Even if she carries a male name.

Example: "Die Admiral Graf Spee wurde im Dezember 1939 versenkt." [The ... Spee was scuttled in December 1939].

 

Where it does get confusing though... and why some probably claim all ships 'are male' in German:

When talking about e.g. the Admiral Graf Spee the male ('der'/'er'/'sein' = he/his)  as well as the neutral pronoun ('das'/'es'/'sein' = it/its) can also be used correctly. And yes - that can be a bit confusing.

 

So here's the ultimate explanation:

 

- As just stated: when talking about a particular ship (e.g. by her name) a ship's basically and generally referred to as if female (she/her = 'sie'/'ihr') -> "die Graf Spee", "die Emden", "die V-25", "die Bismarck", "die Großer Kurfürst" (sic!), ...

  So re. the Graf Spee one could say "sie wurde versenkt" (she's been scuttled).

 

- When referring to a ship as a 'thing-in-itself' (i.e. a ship) and 'das Schiff' being a neuter noun the neutral form can also be used.

   E.g. after scuttling the Graf Spee: "es wurde versenkt",  i.e. "das Schiff wurde versenkt". (It/the ship has been been scuttled).

 

- When referring to a ship by it's class the pronoun of the class can also be used.

   E.g. after scuttling the Graf Spee: "er wurde versenkt", i.e. "der Panzerkreuzer wurde versenkt" (He/the armored cruiser has been scuttled).

 

The good news + the (really) easy solution: 

- Regarding this seemingly arbitrary mess of a gender bender of a grammar: you can hardly make a mistake whatever pronoun you use when referring to a ship in German. Except for very, very rare, special exceptions - of course... *sigh* ^^

- So here's the easy solution:  "sie" (she) is always correct - since every ship at sea has a name, even if it's "IXC-40/U-1221"   ; )

 

...so in the end: whatever!

Next time some wisecrack has a totally plausible theory or feels like acting out their inner grammar-nazi: you now know The Truth™. 

 

And next time on this channel: The extended self reflected in the waifu concept and how to remain sane while identifying as a torpedo boat   ;;D

 

Fair seas + good hunting!

: )

 

*[Why I believe I'm getting it right? It's one of my native languages and, i.a., whatever I wrote in German was passed by the editorial office, so... you can totally trust me   );->   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ]

[Centurion_1711]

This is a really good summary, thank you for putting it together! Now I feel a bit better when, by reflex, I call Bismarck a "she" 

[Aetius85]

In Italy the official naming is male for military ships and female for merchant ships.

 

So this is "Il" Doria

 

 

And this "La"  Doria

 

 

But unfortunately in the media there is still lot of confusion because like in german you have to use the correct pronoun when the name is preceeded by the class so, for battleship Roma,  as the word "corazzata/battleship" is female becomes  "La corazzata Roma" ( instead the Fiume, as "incrociatore/cruiser" is male is always "Il Fiume") : omitting the class, a lot of times people wrongly says "La Roma" instead of "Il Roma".

 

[Estaca_de_Bares]

1 hour ago, Aetius85 said:

In Italy the official naming is male for military ships and female for merchant ships.

 

So this is "Il" Doria

 

 

And this "La"  Doria

 

 

But unfortunately in the media there is still lot of confusion because like in german you have to use the correct pronoun when the name is preceeded by the class so, for battleship Roma,  as the word "corazzata/battleship" is female becomes  "La corazzata Roma" ( instead the Fiume, as "incrociatore/cruiser" is male is always "Il Fiume") : omitting the class, a lot of times people wrongly says "La Roma" instead of "Il Roma".

 

Interesting. That mistake in gendering by omitting the class reminds me of the fact that many Spanish names for females are actually masculine words: Rocío ("el rocío", the dew), Dolores ("los dolores", the pains/sorrows), Ángeles ("los ángeles", the angels), Pilar ("el pilar", the pillar)... Someone told me it was due to being specific invocations of the Virgin ("la Virgen", so it's feminine) and it makes sense.

 

7 hours ago, HentaiSquirrel said:

In English all ships 'are female'. That's easy. (Afaik while 'ship' is actually a neuter noun a particular ship is always referred to as 'she'/'her' by convention. Plz correct me if I'm wrong here).

 

Example: "I just landed a 40k dev strike on a Duke of York - she was giving me full broadside and and deserved a paddlin' "

AFAIK, the convention tends to be calling your ship "she" (the precious one after all) while someone else's can be a "he", but I might be the one in the wrong.

 

Salute.

[quickr]

2 hours ago, Aetius85 said:

still lot of confusion

I've started learning Italian a month ago. It is definitively confusing

Specially  formal/informal part.

 

7 hours ago, HentaiSquirrel said:

...so in the end: whatever! 

good guide, thank you

 

 

 

[Aetius85]

18 minutes ago, quickr said:

I've started learning Italian a month ago. It is definitively confusing

Specially  formal/informal part.

 

Formal/Informal? AFAIK generally people complains more about grammar exceptions :D

 

[quickr]

4 minutes ago, Aetius85 said:

Formal/Informal? AFAIK generally people complains more about grammar exceptions :D

We are not that far off. Still learning the basics

But it is hard learning a new language at this age. I regret not picking another language alongside english while i was in school

[DaMaGGo]

Vor 9 Stunden, HentaiSquirrel sagte:

The extended self reflected in the waifu concept and how to remain sane while identifying as a torpedo boat   ;;D

Although i don´t identify as a torpedoboat i would love to read your elaboration on that. Sign me up^^

[Aetius85]

1 hour ago, quickr said:

We are not that far off. Still learning the basics

But it is hard learning a new language at this age. I regret not picking another language alongside english while i was in school

I understand your point, I wanted to learn German at 33..but I don't have time to study grammar and follow real lessons, so I do 10 mins every day on Duolingo..if you haven't urgencies it's an alternative you can follow 

[quickr]

31 minutes ago, Aetius85 said:

I understand your point, I wanted to learn German at 33..but I don't have time to study grammar and follow real lessons, so I do 10 mins every day on Duolingo..if you haven't urgencies it's an alternative you can follow

Yes, dualingo is great. I'm using it as well plus the lessons in italian i have two times a week.

[Estaca_de_Bares]

21 hours ago, quickr said:

We are not that far off. Still learning the basics

But it is hard learning a new language at this age. I regret not picking another language alongside english while i was in school

19 hours ago, Aetius85 said:

I understand your point, I wanted to learn German at 33..but I don't have time to study grammar and follow real lessons, so I do 10 mins every day on Duolingo..if you haven't urgencies it's an alternative you can follow 

It's useful to think about languages as if they were Meccano or Lego kits, or at least I find it useful. When I worked as a home tutor I reasoned that all languages I knew or could understand when read (western Indo-European ones basically, so Spanish, English, German, French...) have this general structure for simple phrases:

• Subject + Auxiliary Verb + Main Verb + Objects (direct and indirect) + Other Complements (time, place, mode...)

and that they all tended to flip the auxiliary verb and the subject when questioning. Once you have ingrained such structure in your mind, you're able to build coherent phrases with the vocabulary you learn (although they'll lack the specific twists and nuances, thus giving away you're a foreigner) and a native speaker can get the general meaning in spite of them being riddled with other mistakes.

 

Salute.

[Aetius85]

1 hour ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

It's useful to think about languages as if they were Meccano or Lego kits, or at least I find it useful. When I worked as a home tutor I reasoned that all languages I knew or could understand when read (western Indo-European ones basically, so Spanish, English, German, French...) have this general structure for simple phrases:

• Subject + Auxiliary Verb + Main Verb + Objects (direct and indirect) + Other Complements (time, place, mode...)

and that they all tended to flip the auxiliary verb and the subject when questioning. Once you have ingrained such structure in your mind, you're able to build coherent phrases with the vocabulary you learn (although they'll lack the specific twists and nuances, thus giving away you're a foreigner) and a native speaker can get the general meaning in spite of them being riddled with other mistakes.

 

Salute.

I agree with you, personally I am finding a lot of "help" from english words which are similar in German, or my rembrances of Latin and Greek studied at high school for declensions. I think lot of people think German is difficult only because they see so many "long words", without understanding that most of times these are compositions of smaller words.

[NabooN1]

 

 

 

 

2

On 11/19/2019 at 6:45 AM, HentaiSquirrel said:

In English all ships 'are female'. That's easy. (Afaik while 'ship' is actually a neuter noun a particular ship is always referred to as 'she'/'her' by convention. Plz correct me if I'm wrong here).

Example: "I just landed a 40k dev strike on a Duke of York - she was giving me full broadside and and deserved a paddlin' "

 

And  in German it is... ta-daaa: - exactly the same : )

Theoretical you are right. Practical your'e don't right.

Some ships in german was ordered to be male. For example the passenger ship Imperator (Order by Kaiser Willhelm) or the Bismarck (Order by Captain Ernst Lindemann). So it's not wrong to call them a "he" . But especially by the Bismarck the order was forgotten by the history and everyone today calls her a she (exclude Sabaton)

[B4tman_13]

as a german, i don‘t get the point of calling all ships a „she“. don‘t worry. our language is not that easy. 

for me i almost fckd up every time in english with grammar until i started guessing. it has worked for me and it will for you in german as well. 

it‘s all about first language so who cares. ;)