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UncappingBadger

DD roles vs actual incentive todo those roles

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I've had crap games all night. Some games due to my own mistakes (i'm big enough to admit when I make them), but mostly because my team always seems to be the *EDIT* who sit at the back trying to get to the next map because they're trying to avoid the inevitable HE spam. Part of me understands why they're doing it but at the same time it's no less annoying. Well done WG - this is the culture and gameplay you have developed. *EDIT*

 

My last game of the night was in the Gearing. I spawned on a flank and decided going in I would not engage or get myself spotted unless the odds of me winning that engagement were stacked in my favor. I moved up the left flank, throwing my 16km torps as they came off cool down in likely directions for enemy ships to be at, further aided by RPF. Mostly I just provided vision for my team though. We won the game, and I got 2 kills. Whilst my damage was low, my spotting damage was much, much higher. Add to this I capped. Yet i'm not rewarded for this, or if I am its such a small reward its barely worth mentioning.

 

Now I suppose you could argue that i made the decision to stay out of the fight and sacrifice damage, and so the score is justified. I would disagree, this is supposed to be a team based game. I did something that directly benefited my team and in my opinion helped us score the win. Regardless if I personally damaged ships or not. The outcome of the match speaks for itself in this matter.

 

So what the actual F WG? In the absence of a CV (which at T10 is pretty much all the time *EDIT*) the DD is THE spotter for your team. If they're not completely *EDIT* and get killed rushing radar cruisers that is. So when a DD carries out his role correctly IE spots, & caps and doesn't get any tangible benefit from it at the end of the game what exactly is the incentive here?

 

Attached are the results from the game. For the record the hindi was not a kill steal, at least one I could have avoided. My team gave him a smacking but before they could hit him again he managed to get out of line of sight of them so I finished him with a good old fashioned case of surprise *EDIT*. The Yoshino was half health when I smacked him with torpedo's. I'm surprised they even hit cause he knew roughly where I was. As for the Amalfi and Sov Soyuz - me and the Yueyang decided we would double team them. A BB spoilt our fun with the Amalfi but the Soyuz was all ours and we had our fun with him before the Yueyang put a torp spread into his broadside. 

 

Please note the Yeuyang, Lightning and Z-52 - between us we got 3/4 of the enemy team yet we're at the bottom of the list and most likely benefited the least in terms of reward. How is that even representative in terms of our contribution during the game?

INCENTIVE.JPG

TEAMSCORE.JPG

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No need excusing “kill stealing”, I keep seing “9 kill turnaround amazing” videoes on youtube where a handfull of the kills are “steals”.

 

On the other hand, it looks like you got a decent team where most were pulling more or less equally?

 

I would personally like a better reward for capturing points, and even better, an 80% line going through the map on each side, if you stay on your side of that, your xp is reduced, and an 120% line at the middle, cross that and everything done beyond that is rewarded more.

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I have nothing against the team I was with. They all played very well and I would agree that in terms of participation we were all on an equal footing.

 

As for the suggestion - I like the idea although it's probably too much like hard work for WG to introduce. They can barely make the game stable, never mind add complex algorithms to determine if someone should get bonus XP or not based on map position.  

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Hmm I'm kind of curious, in World of tanks if you're the one spotting an enemy tank and they take damage, you get credited half that damage towards your own which means that you earn XP and credits just by being a good passive scout even if you don't fire you gun (and you get lucky). I thought it was the same deal here in WoWs but I'm guessing that it isn't (since otherwise carriers would rake in the credits from spotting I assume...maybe...I don't really know just a guess).

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- Lower tier ships gain more if they deal damage to higher tier ones. So the Balti/Cleve dont need that much damage to get that result, even less so if they managed to get their damage on the DDs (which is quite likely seeing that they are radar Cruisers)

- Spotting damage doesnt get rewarded much. And 86k is not THAT MUCH.

- I think getting a kill is roughly the equivalent of ~15% of the targets HP in XP.

- XP is awarded based on % of damage you deal to a target. 10k from a TX DD is basicly worth the same as 50k on a TX BB.

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What gives more XP is doing damage while spotting and capping (although the boosts from doing it are good) aren't as equally valued. Fortunately the damage-to-XP conversion is relative and not absolute, which means that you get more from crippling a DD than from doing twice or three times that much to a BB. As an example, in this battle I dealt less damage than you in yours (18k vs 20k) and way less spotting damage (but received a lot more potential one) with the same number of kills yet got more base XP, and that's because it was done to other destroyers:

LcYVyrFh.jpg

VZ8rqIch.jpg

 

34 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

Hmm I'm kind of curious, in World of tanks if you're the one spotting an enemy tank and they take damage, you get credited half that damage towards your own which means that you earn XP and credits just by being a good passive scout even if you don't fire you gun (and you get lucky). I thought it was the same deal here in WoWs but I'm guessing that it isn't (since otherwise carriers would rake in the credits from spotting I assume...maybe...I don't really know just a guess).

Spotting damage works theoretically in a similar fashion, but it's way less rewarded for the very reason you yourself pointed out. Even worse, let's say you're in a radar cruiser and light up a DD hiding in smoke, if there's a friendly ship closer to him with direct LoS after the radaring (even if he didn't do the actual spotting and doesn't have "real" LoS -i.e., without the radar he wouldn't see the DD-) he receives the spotting damage instead of you.

 

Salute.

Edited by Estaca_de_Bares
Slight corrections for proper syntax and grammar.
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14 minutes ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

What gives more XP is doing damage while spotting and capping (although the boosts from doing it are good) aren't as equally valued. Fortunately the damage-to-XP conversion is relative and not absolute, which means that you get more from crippling a DD than from doing twice or three times that much to a BB. As an example, in this battle I dealt less damage than you in yours (18k vs 20k) and way less spotting damage (but received a lot more potential one) with the same number of kills yet got more base XP, and that's because it was done to other destroyers:

LcYVyrFh.jpg

VZ8rqIch.jpg

 

Spotting damage works theoretically in a similar fashion, but it's way less rewarded for the very reason you yourself pointed out. Even worse, let's say you're in a radar cruiser and light up a DD hiding in smoke, if there's a friendly ship closer to him with direct LoS after the radaring (even if he didn't do the actual spotting and doesn't have "real" LoS -i.e., without the radar he wouldn't see the DD-) he receives the spotting damage instead of you.

 

Salute.

 

Interesting. So you're telling me that the game is penalising me for not shooting other DD's? I mean, I would have giving the right circumstances (IE 100% certainty of me winning as per my OP) but they died so quickly, that gearing being the exception. He was literally on the opposite flank to me though so I had no chance of getting into a fight with him.

 

It seems backwards. I mean it might just be me but when you're open water gunboating a T9 BB that with the right RNG can delete you from existence, it should be worth a lot more than a gun fight with a DD. Just the difference on gun calibre alone,  even if it is only 4k or 5k worth of damage, it should be worth a lot more and especially if it was in the open. If what you say is true, and to be clear here without evidence to the contrary and based on the evidence you've giving i assume it is; i'm better off leaving the cruisers and BB's alone and hunting the enemy DD's all game. I might not get 150k damage (which is my average in 70% of my games) but i'll get more from it in terms of  XP and credit rewards. 

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I'd agree that spotting damage could be rewarded a lot more. I suspect the reason it isn't is because it's not so easy to determine what is good or bad spotting.

For example, a DD that yolo's in can get an extraordinary amount of spotting damage before he dies.

The WoT WN8 rating system caps spotting damage to a certain amount above expected damage (about 20% cap if I remember correctly), presumably to weed out the yolo spotting. Similarly, kill frags are capped to expected damage to weed out the kill stealers.

WoWS PR metric does not have the kill frag cap, so a high kill frag count can inflate PR much greater than it's percentage weighting in the formula. There is also no spotting in PR as it wasn't historically available, and the %damage stats aren't available via the API. That's why PR can be artificially farmed beyond win rate, by farming damage against BB's, and going out of your way to get a kill shot on a ship that's going to be dead anyway.

So basically the only reward for good spotting will be your win rate over time.

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1 hour ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

Spotting damage works theoretically in a similar fashion, but it's way less rewarded for the very reason you yourself pointed out. Even worse, let's say you're in a radar cruiser and light up a DD hiding in smoke, if there's a friendly ship closer to him with direct LoS after the radaring (even if he didn't do the actual spotting and doesn't have "real" LoS -i.e., without the radar he wouldn't see the DD-) he receives the spotting damage instead of you.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute, wait a minute.  What?!

 

Edit:

The poor radar cruiser used this consumable at the expense of 25k credits (if premium) and gets robbed of the spotting damage too? Is this by design or just an oversight that no one really highlighted over the years?

 

 

 

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Yes, not dealing with the small boats is penalised in many ways, not only in XP earned. After all, they're supposedly the hardest to detect, the ones that provide consistent spotting for long periods of time, and the ones that can wreak havoc if left unchecked. OTOH, being a DD and going after your counterparts on purpose isn't a wise decision unless the flow of the battle dictates so: I had a match on the last days of the previous patch where a Daring came chasing my Shimakaze, and in spite of him having support (his team pushed en masse into the cap I went to and I lost my only accompanying ship, a Gearing), his superior RoF, more base HP (I can't remember if he ran SE, but I certainly did and do, so it compensates a bit) and heal he went down first after receiving 28k damage by gun and fires. I was finished off by his friendly Hindenburg:

smNZRzB.png

 

10 minutes ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute, wait a minute.  What?!

It happens the moment the red ship becomes visible to others after the rendering penalty. I'm not sure if it's related in any way to the "spotting after sunk" bug that comes and goes from time to time, but I would bet on it. I've experienced it as both the radar ship (Minotaur) and the unintended spotter (Shimakaze). It's funny seeing you only got 3k spotting damage from a sunk TX DD (so 18-21k HP not counting SE) that you lit, was 9km away with a smoke in between, running away and not shooting.

 

Salute.

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Spotting damage rewards are practically nonexistent indeed.

There was actually an official post somewhere that gave us the formula quite some time ago. Can't find it anymore for the life of me but it showed us pretty clearly that spotting damage is worthless.

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4 hours ago, UncappingBadger said:

I've had crap games all night. Some games due to my own mistakes (i'm big enough to admit when I make them), but mostly because my team always seems to be the morons who sit at the back trying to get to the next map because they're trying to avoid the inevitable HE spam. Part of me understands why they're doing it but at the same time it's no less annoying. Well done WG - this is the culture and gameplay you have developed. I've already made the snowflake moderators cry by voicing my frustration on this point ( I know you're watching, so imagine me waving my hairy backside at you - that's how little I care) so i'll move on to the meat and potatoes of my post.

 

My last game of the night was in the Gearing. I spawned on a flank and decided going in I would not engage or get myself spotted unless the odds of me winning that engagement were stacked in my favor. I moved up the left flank, throwing my 16km torps as they came off cool down in likely directions for enemy ships to be at, further aided by RPF. Mostly I just provided vision for my team though. We won the game, and I got 2 kills. Whilst my damage was low, my spotting damage was much, much higher. Add to this I capped. Yet i'm not rewarded for this, or if I am its such a small reward its barely worth mentioning.

 

Now I suppose you could argue that i made the decision to stay out of the fight and sacrifice damage, and so the score is justified. I would disagree, this is supposed to be a team based game. I did something that directly benefited my team and in my opinion helped us score the win. Regardless if I personally damaged ships or not. The outcome of the match speaks for itself in this matter.

 

So what the actual F WG? In the absence of a CV (which at T10 is pretty much all the time thanks to how incompetent you are) the DD is THE spotter for your team. If they're not completely retarded and get killed rushing radar cruisers that is. So when a DD carries out his role correctly IE spots, & caps and doesn't get any tangible benefit from it at the end of the game what exactly is the incentive here?

 

Attached are the results from the game. For the record the hindi was not a kill steal, at least one I could have avoided. My team gave him a smacking but before they could hit him again he managed to get out of line of sight of them so I finished him with a good old fashioned case of surprise butt sex. The Yoshino was half health when I smacked him with torpedo's. I'm surprised they even hit cause he knew roughly where I was. As for the Amalfi and Sov Soyuz - me and the Yueyang decided we would double team them. A BB spoilt our fun with the Amalfi but the Soyuz was all ours and we had our fun with him before the Yueyang put a torp spread into his broadside. 

 

Please note the Yeuyang, Lightning and Z-52 - between us we got 3/4 of the enemy team yet we're at the bottom of the list and most likely benefited the least in terms of reward. How is that even representative in terms of our contribution during the game?

  • Trolling gets you moderated
  • Ships hang back since open beta, BB even do that in battles consisting mostly of BB, some BB players will use ANY excuse to hang back
  • You got 1000 base XP in a match where you did 20k damage, that is a good reward, you did not fight off DD and it is doubtful you spotted them for long, if any, losing would have gotten you 1/3 less base XP and lost you any other win based modifier
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6 hours ago, UncappingBadger said:

I've had crap games all night. Some games due to my own mistakes (i'm big enough to admit when I make them), but mostly because my team always seems to be the morons who sit at the back trying to get to the next map because they're trying to avoid the inevitable HE spam. Part of me understands why they're doing it but at the same time it's no less annoying. Well done WG - this is the culture and gameplay you have developed. I've already made the snowflake moderators cry by voicing my frustration on this point ( I know you're watching, so imagine me waving my hairy backside at you - that's how little I care) so i'll move on to the meat and potatoes of my post.

 

My last game of the night was in the Gearing. I spawned on a flank and decided going in I would not engage or get myself spotted unless the odds of me winning that engagement were stacked in my favor. I moved up the left flank, throwing my 16km torps as they came off cool down in likely directions for enemy ships to be at, further aided by RPF. Mostly I just provided vision for my team though. We won the game, and I got 2 kills. Whilst my damage was low, my spotting damage was much, much higher. Add to this I capped. Yet i'm not rewarded for this, or if I am its such a small reward its barely worth mentioning.

 

Now I suppose you could argue that i made the decision to stay out of the fight and sacrifice damage, and so the score is justified. I would disagree, this is supposed to be a team based game. I did something that directly benefited my team and in my opinion helped us score the win. Regardless if I personally damaged ships or not. The outcome of the match speaks for itself in this matter.

 

So what the actual F WG? In the absence of a CV (which at T10 is pretty much all the time thanks to how incompetent you are) the DD is THE spotter for your team. If they're not completely retarded and get killed rushing radar cruisers that is. So when a DD carries out his role correctly IE spots, & caps and doesn't get any tangible benefit from it at the end of the game what exactly is the incentive here?

 

Attached are the results from the game. For the record the hindi was not a kill steal, at least one I could have avoided. My team gave him a smacking but before they could hit him again he managed to get out of line of sight of them so I finished him with a good old fashioned case of surprise butt sex. The Yoshino was half health when I smacked him with torpedo's. I'm surprised they even hit cause he knew roughly where I was. As for the Amalfi and Sov Soyuz - me and the Yueyang decided we would double team them. A BB spoilt our fun with the Amalfi but the Soyuz was all ours and we had our fun with him before the Yueyang put a torp spread into his broadside. 

 

Please note the Yeuyang, Lightning and Z-52 - between us we got 3/4 of the enemy team yet we're at the bottom of the list and most likely benefited the least in terms of reward. How is that even representative in terms of our contribution during the game?

INCENTIVE.JPG

TEAMSCORE.JPG

that's the reason why stealthfiring - for dd's - should not have been removed. it might have been/was frustrating at the recieving end...but that mostly applied to bb's. bb's that made a mistake by being alone and overextented and therefore deserved to get punished. 

 

torpedoes are so easy to dodge and just unreliable, low dps damage "thx" to all the nerfs, and since the last nerf nearly useless. fires are "ok" because you can stack them, but with the long reload on high tiers, stacking floods is pure luck.

 

so, dd's now got no reliable and terrorfying source of damage, except against other dd's. so they got almost reduced to passive spotters, because of endless whining of incomptetant bb players.

 

if a bb player got farmed by a stealthfiring dd, in most cases it was his own fault. either by overextending early on, or misspositioning, lack of mapawareness later in the game. but it was the only reliable threat to a bb. torpedoes get laughed at and their damage just shrugged off.

 

dd's are the unloved stepchild...they are expected to risk their hp, get close and spot, but according to many bb players, that's all what they should be allowed to do, because...hey...they are sneaky. when played well, back in the days, they could touch their "bb's" in bad spots and actually be a threat to them.

 

dd's arent a threat anymor except to themselves in knifefights for caps, and even there most often the dd that holds it's fire and just spots win's...that might net you a win, but as OP said, you dont get rewarded at all.

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2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Spotting damage rewards are practically nonexistent indeed.

There was actually an official post somewhere that gave us the formula quite some time ago. Can't find it anymore for the life of me but it showed us pretty clearly that spotting damage is worthless.

It's not much but 30-40% (CA/CL - DD) of dmg done isn't too bad..

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Base_Earnings#Detection

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Ehh, you got a win out of it. Thats all that matters tbh. I quite like being selfless and providing smoke for the team while spotting. Even thought i dont fire my guns much in a fletcher i still average 1.4k base almost every game.

 

You play a class because its meant to be fun, not because you are supposed to be rewarded at the end for playing it.

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4 minutes ago, rnat said:

It's not much but 30-40% (CA/CL - DD) of dmg done isn't too bad..

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Base_Earnings#Detection

 

This is pretty much the problem:

Quote

- The reward is divided by the number of spotters.
- Damage-over-time (fire, flood) is not rewarded to spotters.

 

A good chunk of damage in this game is usually done by DoT, so that flies straight out of the window.

And if a target is spotted it will usually open fire, everyone in range will then become a "spotter" which essentially cuts down your own rewards to nothing.

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16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

his is pretty much the problem:

Quote

- The reward is divided by the number of spotters.
- Damage-over-time (fire, flood) is not rewarded to spotters.

 

A good chunk of damage in this game is usually done by DoT, so that flies straight out of the window.

And if a target is spotted it will usually open fire, everyone in range will then become a "spotter" which essentially cuts down your own rewards to nothing.

Indeed. I didn't take those points into account.

Not so much the 1/N (which by itself would be relatively okay going by normal spotting range alone) but the fact that the target will usually open fire which makes N significant.

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As a DD doing your job (spotting, capping, attacking enemy DDs, torping) I find you are under awarded for your efforts. BaBBies hanging back, farming damage and generally doing nothing for the team get far better results. Great incentive structure :Smile_facepalm:

Typically for a good DD game where I cap 1 or 2 times, constantly spot and push the enemy, attack enemy DDs multiple times and sink one and put a few torps into BBs I get 35k damage and meh rewards. Of course I get all the enemy attention every time I open fire and get spotted and CVs give me flattering attention, so in a quarter of the games I get blapped before half time. 

I think DDs should get better rewards for good game play and the risks that entails :Smile_coin:

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22 minutes ago, kiteohatto said:

Ehh, you got a win out of it. Thats all that matters tbh. I quite like being selfless and providing smoke for the team while spotting. Even thought i dont fire my guns much in a fletcher i still average 1.4k base almost every game.

 

You play a class because its meant to be fun, not because you are supposed to be rewarded at the end for playing it.

Yep he got a win this time, but just as likely you have a noob team and you lose despite your best efforts.

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Double your spotting = 880 base xp for me. (586 + 50% win bonus)

XP works in mysterious ways and spotting is worth fecal matter.

 

Spoiler

shot-18_08.15_01_14.49-0492.thumb.jpg.8985f4376933e2a23d3dfd942cc03a1d.jpgshot-18_08.15_01_14.51-0676.thumb.jpg.883c94254c7800c93bedb13d9efa76e3.jpgshot-18_08.15_01_14.57-0705.thumb.jpg.bd53bb24aac04e6dde008656b5c19297.jpg

 

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Why play risky dd for little reward when I can sit back in base in my glorious bb firing he all over map and finish first, da? :Smile_teethhappy:

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15 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Why play risky dd for little reward when I can sit back in base in my glorious bb firing he all over map and finish first, da? :Smile_teethhappy:

Yeah being big, dumb and boring is a great way to play the game :Smile_sceptic:

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10 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

Yeah being big, dumb and boring is a great way to play the game :Smile_sceptic:

Hey bro why so negative, he could have suggested a CV and just unload on the entire red team without them beeing able to do much or anything about it, the BB you can at least see and shoot back at... :Smile_trollface:

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To get good XP in a DD, you need to take a good percentage (50% +) of one or more ships hit points. Preferably a higher tier ship. Hitting various ships for a small number of hit points each does not get you much. I am currently re-playing the Minsk. Here is a battle I had last night....

 

tempsnip.thumb.jpg.a41b27c172208f919eb977a06a1b5c17.jpg

 

I did around 16K damage. I jointly capped once. I got the XP because I played the role of a gun boat DD and hit the Udaloi and sank the Yugumo for more that half his HP basically. I then tried to spot the cruisers for the rest of the team to shoot. The team won because we got rid of their DD's, spotted the cruisers and held three out of four caps. GG. This game is not just about high damage numbers (although the Musashi probably had a good damage game).

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6 hours ago, UncappingBadger said:

Interesting. So you're telling me that the game is penalising me for not shooting other DD's?

Basically yes. From economy standpoint, what matters is %hp damage done. Now guess which is easier to do substantial %hp dmg in short time - landing torps on WSAD enlightened target, sprinkling BB with DD guns from smoke or short range brawl between destroyers?

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