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"Spotting have killed the game" 

Many players, to the more famous gamers/streamers have been saying the above line about the new CV rework.  Ever since the major RTS was shelved, with many seesawing of micro updates, to major patches along the way.  The look and feel of the new "mode".  Effectively, World of Warships have changed forever...

 

I feel I need to include the following.  Instead of starting another thread in the forum, nor restarting what is already been said many times since.  

Yes, Wargaming (WG) have essentially "succeeded" in raising the players to try the CV lines.  That's a fact, to which I will not challenge. After all, the numbers do reflect the rise in CV usage according to their data.  As well as in game.  

That was their intention (they proved many times during their public statements in many 'summits'), but was that the only intention? Doubt it.  

With any introduction of anything "new", (this case being CV changes) WG have placed many Premium CVs on their shops.  Many were sold.  

Only to have the players who bought them the feeling of buyers remorse. Subsequent updates/patches later.

This is not only a rumour mill (From NA players to EU players), it's a fact.  I've spoken to many players directly on both sides of the pond.  None of them were glad to have bought them. 

What WG have consequently done.  Their drop in the ocean, is now being felt on the shores of all the playerbases around the regions.

 

A message to players.  Could we please keep any and all arguments of why there is a CV / or the need for CV in this game out of this thread.  This is not about that.

It's about working with what we have now, to make it hopefully better for all.  No, I'm not a pro-CV or against-CV.  I just play with what the WG have given access me.

 

 

 

Back on topic.

Let's face it. Going back is not an option for WG.  After many, many months of work and money poured into it.  We know that it isn't going to happen.  We get it.  

Instead of pressing for the hard reset.  Let's find a way to maintain the changes, and tweak what could be better for all player base/game itself.

So the following is what I will suggest for the WG team to maybe bring to their next internal meeting, hopefully.

 

Currently, the spotting mechanic allows for X amount of distance from plane to ship to be 'hard spotted'.  Much like surface ships to surface ships spotting mechanic.  The distance varies from ship to ship, and their individual configurations that users chose to use their particular ships.

I do not think that the players are unhappy with such mechanic.  The fact that a plane can spot a ship at a certain fixed distance is nothing new.  This was also true from the RTS days.  So I can't say that this could be the issue.

What is questionable, and begs the question of "spotting have killed the game".  Is something else from the aforementioned hard spot mechanics.

 

What it does now?  It allows for CV planes to spot ships anywhere on the map.  The detection ranges of the ships plus the range of the planes spotting distance to the ships overlaps too closely.  What does that mean?  Let's say ship has air detection of 5km, the plane have hard potting distance of 6km.  That leaves 1km buffer in favour of the the planes.  If anything, this gap should be addressed. If it hasn't already.

 

I feel I might get lost in my own words here, so let me just jump right into it.

 

Suggestions:

 

Dropped Fighters (Close air patrol - CAP):

A:  Their spotting ability is active as long as they are patrolling in their dropped areas. With an active "aircraft fuel" timer.

I feel I need to write this, just in case the current mechanic will be drastically changed for something else. This mechanic is fine as is.

As a DD player, I think this wouldn't impact me as much.  Or any other ship types.

 

B:  Their spotting ability is only active for a limited period, while retaining the ability to fight other enemy fighters. 

For example: Spotting time for full strength fighter squadron = 45 seconds, CAP time = 60secs. So upon 45 second mark, the spotting will stop. But the air to air will remain until the timer runs out.  Or until the Combat Air Patrol (air to air) area is still active until the planes are shot down.  Then the area goes dark.

 

C:  Their spotting radius is decided upon how many fighters are patrolling the area.

i.e. 6 planes maximum (insert arbitrary number here) spotting distance, 1 plane minimum (inset arbitrary number here) spotting distance from centre of axis/flight pattern.

 

D:  The fighters can be replaced by being reinforced by another set of fighters from the CV; Automated flight.

This will need to be done by addition of a CV consumable.  Players choice, selectable for Premium consumable or non-premium.

This will free up the CV player to assist one side of of map, while not having to fly from across the map to drop fighters. 

(I fear this as the most vulnerable idea, that the public may not agree with)

 

 

CV vs CV gameplay:

What is a missed opportunity.  Not having the ability to directly PvP against a CV, as a CV player in game.  Currently the CV is in battle with themselves to get as much damage, not versus enemy CV player.  No matter how much we dissect this mechanic.  That is what it results to.  In the older system, there were.  Skill level was player input controlled, versus the RNG automated as it is now.  

Now it's drop the fighters, let the automated RNG figure it out.  This is nothing close to what the surface ship players do.  They position, they aim, they time, etc.  To achieve a particular result of their choices and actions. Why should it be any different for the CV?

Imagine, if destroyers, cruisers, battleships with a press of a consumable.  Allowing the shells to land on target depending totally on the automated RNG without any other input form the player.  I'm quite sure that the player would disagree with this, why can't the CV players actions reflect this too? Why make the CV gameplay automated when fighting versus another CV player? 

This is something that should be addressed, if CV is to be more than just a damage collector.

 

Introduce a consumable for player controlled Air to Air dogfighting:

When a player is flying their squadron, and sees/wants to engage with the enemy squadron.  Allow the player to press a consumable or a key, to change the reticule to Air-to-Air mode to engage in their dog fighting.  Once either side have been shot down, the remaining planes will switch to the current "flying" mode.

 

Or please find another way for Air-to-air dogfighting to be player input related, and not automated.  I just find that the exclusion of player controlled input with Air-to-Air is a huge missed opportunity during the current rework.

 

 

Flying player controlled planes (Rockets, torpedoes, bombs):

When a player is actively controlling the squadron.  The fog of war will be lifted off the minimal.  In conjunction with the main battle screen.  As the flying squadron is moving from grid to grid/area to area.  Think of the planes directly (Line of sight) spotting the ships while it is on coarse.  The planes can turn around to keep the target spotted, provided it is still airborne.

 

Also the squadrons spotting is limited to X amount of distance from the centre point of axis/formation.  So the squadrons will have to actively seek to find a target, loiter the target area to receive spotting damage (this should be boosted & reflected to CV players, not just relying on damage alone when calculating the credit earning formula).

If the squadron all gets shot down, effectively fog of war reactivating instantly.  Or until another squadron flies into the unmasked zone.

 

I'm quite sure I've missed more ideas at the time of this writing.

 

Summary

The battle space is no longer open "spotted" for the whole duration. 

It would give all the ships the option to maneuver freely (provided they are not being actively spotted).  

It would also limit the CV's purpose to farm just for their own needs (opposite of team play).

Re-introduce the manual controls of player selected inputs for Air-to-Air dogfights.

 

 

 

Wargaming, can we test this idea at least?

 

@Sub_Octavian,

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It's not spotting ruining the matches. 

It's players who know wtf they are doing who are ruining your games if you are on the enemy team

Screenshot_20191117_191309_com.android.chrome.jpg

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33 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

It's not spotting ruining the matches. 

I don't think you've thought this through.  If as you say "It's not spotting", then why do we bother with all the detection related upgrades, and Captain skills, island hugging, firing from cover & not being detected, etc in game?

 

Whether you like it or not (realise it or not).  Spotting is one of the fundamentals that directly results in player actions.

 

33 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

It's players who know wtf they are doing who are ruining your games if you are on the enemy team

This applies to anything, here in WOWS to other games, to life in general.  What is your point?

Have I in any part of my original post complain about "ruining my games"? I do not believe so.

 

Also are you drawing on examples using ships that were played twice, and twelve times? Do you realise the fault with that example?

Sorry, but I'm not going to argue about anything based off of someones stats alone.  This is more than that.

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

It's not spotting ruining the matches. 

 

Actually it is because you see, noobs still spot you even if they suck at everything else. Unicums raping everything is a given, luckily there is only 1 in every 1k players or so....

So even a noob in a CV is annoying to deal with

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WG did such a bad job with the rework it's not even worth talking about to be brutally honest.

 

Better to forget the whole thing.   Unicums have become even more powerful in CV's but with it, they are also detested.

 

Not by me, I couldn't care less.  But the majority detest them and I for one, couldn't be doing with that.

 

They are renowned for being played by people that wanna cause misery and simply farm damage and it is such a shame how they have become.. A massive shame, honestly.

 

Out of 50 players in our clan, not one of them, NOT ONE play CV's in a div.  They too can't be doing with the negative tag attached to rework CV's.

 

Again, such a shame.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Redcap375 said:

WG did such a bad job with the rework it's not even worth talking about to be brutally honest.

 

Better to forget the whole thing.   Unicums have become even more powerful in CV's but with it, they are also detested.

 

Not by me, I couldn't care less.  But the majority detest them and I for one, couldn't be doing with that.

 

They are renowned for being played by people that wanna cause misery and simply farm damage and it is such a shame how they have become.. A massive shame, honestly.

 

Out of 50 players in our clan, not one of them, NOT ONE play CV's in a div.  They too can't be doing with the negative tag attached to rework CV's.

 

Again, such a shame. 

 

Just came out of a T4 game. Used to be a Tier I really liked to play. Sealclub CV-Divis with matchmaking monitor (how obvious that they searched the map and once saw me did NOTHING else but focus me the ENTIRE game). Every other player with brain has left this tier range, its obvious as daylight. Totaly stupid DDs are left - taking TORPS from CVs like candy and suiciding into the enemy. So its basically a farm area for wannabe good players in CVs and the poor souls that have no other option then to play T4 aka new players. Well done WG, REALLY REALLY [edited]WELL DONE.

 

And btw @ OP - ill give you credits for trying but you really thing SubbO will come here and discuss with you? ha. But hey - he can always prove me wrong instead of right. I really love it how everything, that SubbO says or does, is 180° against what I would like the game to be. Ofc they cant always do what I want - im not delusional. But during 2019, WG manages to kill everything I loved about the game: Scenarios, T4, T7. Nice things like the Campaingns wont be continued. Yea, cant have something that gives depth and long time content - also for new players that join years after the campaign was originally introduced!! Nah, we need heavy grinds, force you to play 8 hours per day to grab shitty ships so we can stay competetive on high tiers with all the moronic ships that have been introduced hugly in 2019 aswell.

 

And here goes another sunday evening btw, where im pissed after 2 randoms games. And I only went to play randoms games because our clan of 45 people once again couldnt field 8 guys for clanwars - because everyone is fed up with the game. Close World of Warships - open Steam - thats how my sunday evening continues. And this is for you WG

 

Spoiler

t

 

Oh yea, I turned totaly off-topic. But at this point - do I look like I care?

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14 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

WG did such a bad job with the rework it's not even worth talking about to be brutally honest.

 

Just took out Hosho for 2 games, remember: HoShO iS fIxEd!!!

 

image.png.8d6c6571f2c8981a04ee8f129204cbda.png

image.thumb.png.753057614e1574358c1875e23d3042e5.png

 

Its just dumb as crap. Btw, the Isokaze kills were Drop -> Kill -> start next drop -> next kill within like 15 seconds.

 

One lie following the next, what else is new?

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17 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

WG did such a bad job with the rework it's not even worth talking about to be brutally honest.

 

Better to forget the whole thing.   Unicums have become even more powerful in CV's but with it, they are also detested.

 

Not by me, I couldn't care less.  But the majority detest them and I for one, couldn't be doing with that.

 

They are renowned for being played by people that wanna cause misery and simply farm damage and it is such a shame how they have become.. A massive shame, honestly.

 

Out of 50 players in our clan, not one of them, NOT ONE play CV's in a div.  They too can't be doing with the negative tag attached to rework CV's.

 

Again, such a shame.

 

 

Maybe your clan needs to grow thick skin then. Coz I’ve kept myself at a good level of CV play, knowing that when WG implement them into all forms of competitive mode (which they will) then my clan can rely on me being able to perform a role in CV’s. As well as my normal DD role.

 

I don’t care if people get pissy at me playing CV. I do care about being useful for my clan and div mates. Not “CoZ i WaNnA fArM dAmAgE” or “MisErY”. 

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Vor 1 Stunde, LowSpeedHighDrag sagte:

I don't think you've thought this through.  If as you say "It's not spotting", then why do we bother with all the detection related upgrades, and Captain skills, island hugging, firing from cover & not being detected, etc in game?

 

Whether you like it or not (realise it or not).  Spotting is one of the fundamentals that directly results in player actions.

 

This applies to anything, here in WOWS to other games, to life in general.  What is your point?

Have I in any part of my original post complain about "ruining my games"? I do not believe so.

 

Also are you drawing on examples using ships that were played twice, and twelve times? Do you realise the fault with that example?

Sorry, but I'm not going to argue about anything based off of someones stats alone.  This is more than that.

 

 

 

The thing is simple. A CV player who just spots missing everything is worthless. It's in the teams hands to decide what is done with the spotting. 

 

I however simply crush you. Spotting is just a side effect of all this. A team? What is so important about it? It either loses or wins. As a CV I can control this outcome to be favorable no matter what. 

12 games were played today. Many others were played before. All of these point to absolute domination. I'm a single player most times with a more than capable division mate. You believe anything would change if we made spotting a non factor in this? 

I will still crush you. My div mate will crush you. There is nothing you can possibly advise on to deal with this unbalanced state but to remove CV's all together. Get used to it. 

Be glad that most times you are blessed with a useless CV on the enemy team. However find me and certain other individuals on the opposing side and no matter what you do and what happens to spotting you will more likely end up losing. 

 

That's just how it is and it's going to get worse. I'm growing each day with my knowledge about CV play. If you don't remove the CV nothing will change. It will get worse every single day im allowed to play that class. 

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12 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

The thing is simple. A CV player who just spots missing everything is worthless. It's in the teams hands to decide what is done with the spotting. 

 

I however simply crush you. Spotting is just a side effect of all this. A team? What is so important about it? It either loses or wins. As a CV I can control this outcome to be favorable no matter what. 

Okay buddy. You "simply crushed" 53% of the games you played  solo  in your beloved Shokaku:
image.thumb.png.e7eb87d18c75935c0b0252fed215794b.png

Don't get me wrong. Your stats are impressive - especially the recent ones. There's no doubt that you are a great player.
But you really believe spotting doesn't matter, and you win all the games single handedly? Get real.

P.S.: It's not hard to win in a unicum division, no matter the class.

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Vor 1 Minute, Blixies sagte:

Okay buddy. You "simply crushed" 53% of the games you played  solo  in your beloved Shokaku:
image.thumb.png.e7eb87d18c75935c0b0252fed215794b.png

Don't get me wrong. Your stats are impressive - especially the recent ones. There's no doubt that you are a great player.
But you really believe spotting doesn't matter, and you win all the games single handedly? Get real.
 

Oh. But I do. 

I can prove it if necessary. But when I have a buddy come online I like playing with him. 

My clan wants to play with me. Time is limited but fine. Shokaku like the other CVs will come past 70% soon enough. And if you don't want to look at me doing the messy work. Look at @El2aZeR or are you going to suggest that he doesn't count?

He got 90% solo in Shokaku in his recent games. All luck huh? 

No. Certainly not. 

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Vor 14 Minuten, Yoshanai sagte:

much yapping

Dude, you were a 51% CV in Ranked 12 when it mattered and people played seriously. You were less ridiculous when you mostly posted wingdings.

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Just now, Yoshanai said:

Oh. But I do. 

I can prove it if necessary. But when I have a buddy come online I like playing with him. 

My clan wants to play with me. Time is limited but fine. Shokaku like the other CVs will come past 70% soon enough. And if you don't want to look at me doing the messy work. Look at @El2aZeR or are you going to suggest that he doesn't count?

He got 90% solo in Shokaku in his recent games. All luck huh? 

No. Certainly not. 

Even @El2aZeR can’t win them all even with 7 kills to his name and a base exp of 3000 on the losing team. We know, he shows us. Hell. I’ve bagged many games whereby I’ve racked up a bigger score than the top winning player and 6 kills etc but you CAN’T win them all even with a perfect game. 

 

But this line of talk is taking this thread of topic now.

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Gerade eben, thisismalacoda sagte:

Dude, you were a 51% CV in Ranked 12 when it mattered and people played seriously. You were less ridiculous when you mostly posted wingdings.

Ranked was dominated by Hakuryo. I played Midway and learned how hard it is to influence a match if every Cruiser and their BBs flies fighter planes and DFAA blobbed up. But you can dismiss the recent achievements of you want of course that are far past that ranked season if it makes you feel better. 

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I played 8 games today. 2 as cv. 6 times as ship against cv. Have 7 wins out of 8. 

 

CV as any class is only good how captain is good. 

 

Basically having CV in game did not hurt my gameplay or result. 

 

90% of CVs are mostly ussles. And more annoying than strong 

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32 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

He got 90% solo in Shokaku in his recent games. All luck huh? 

No. Certainly not. 

Where did I say anything about luck. Calm down please. Nobody says you're bad, or lucky.
That doesn't mean the spotting you do, doesn't contribute to the victory, does it?
Just a reminder that this was the point of this thread, before you came with your "me cruch all games with my damage and my kills"

Oe maybe you know something I don't?
These are my solo Shokaku games since rework:
image.thumb.png.60ebb799b53786bbf16e1897b1beede9.png
I sure as hell do not crush my enemies every single game. I am very glad for every win I can scrap up with the help of my allies, especially, since I can not count on a division mate (obviously).
Can you tell me what's the difference here mate?

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Vor 1 Minute, Blixies sagte:

Where did I say anything about luck. Calm down please. Nobody says you're bad, or lucky.
That doesn't mean the spotting you do, doesn't contribute to the victory, does it?
Just a reminder that this was the point of this thread, before you came with your "me cruch all games with my damage and my kills"

Oe maybe you know something I don't?
These are my solo Shokaku games since rework:
image.thumb.png.60ebb799b53786bbf16e1897b1beede9.png
I sure as hell do not crush my enemies every single game. I am very glad for every win I can scrap up with the help of my allies, especially, since I can not count on a division mate (obviously).
Can you tell me what's the difference here mate?

Simple. 

You just don't get it. 

The spotting you do isn't winning you the games. Because you go in, attack and go out. 

Your damage and your kills, target selection and execution of moves is what wins you the game. 

 

That's it. 

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5 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Simple. 

You just don't get it. 

The spotting you do isn't winning you the games. Because you go in, attack and go out. 

Your damage and your kills, target selection and execution of moves is what wins you the game. 

 

That's it. 

I know what I see when I play. A spotted DD behaves differently than an unseen one, believe it or not.
But hey, don't let me disturb you, or your giant head, from your wet dreams of damages ans solo kills.

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Vor 2 Minuten, Blixies sagte:

I know what I see when I play. A spotted DD behaves differently than an unseen one, believe it or not.
But hey, don't let me disturb you, or your giant head, from your wet dreams of damages ans solo kills.

You aren't. Not at all, disturbing me. I'm enjoying this.

Because you didn't want to bring up my Enty solo stats to make me think. And i played Enty like an ape misusing those AP bombs.

You think that the DDs i kill being spotted matters if I'm the one killing them on mostly the first rocket pass? Explain to me what does spotting matter to a dead DD killed by me? I think you lose this argument.

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15 minutes ago, Blixies said:

That doesn't mean the spotting you do, doesn't contribute to the victory, does it?

 

Spotting does indeed barely contribute because unless you miss horribly you will deal most of the damage to a spotted target yourself. Compared to RTS my spotting damage is pretty laughable (~40-50k less), yet the higher and more flexible damage potential of reworked CVs is more than enough to compensate giving me pretty much the same performance.

 

This doesn't mean spotting is completely useless to CVs, but nerfing it will be of little hindrance.

In fact all you'd be doing is make potato CVs even more worthless than they already are.

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2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

In fact all you'd be doing is make potato CVs even more worthless than they already are.

 

Sounds fine to me:cap_popcorn:

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Gerade eben, DFens_666 sagte:

 

Sounds fine to me:cap_popcorn:

Well yes of course. All this ruckus about spotting is just because people who make these threads aren't in constant pain of having El2a on the enemy team. If they had they wouldn't even think of spotting being the issue. This is the point I'm making in the most narcissistic way possible.

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2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Sounds fine to me:cap_popcorn:

 

Something something rework goals.

Something something skill gap.

:Smile_hiding:

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5 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Well yes of course. All this ruckus about spotting is just because people who make these threads aren't in constant pain of having El2a on the enemy team. If they had they wouldn't even think of spotting being the issue. This is the point I'm making in the most narcissistic way possible.

 

Ofc i know that, thats why i wrote that in my first post here. If everyone would be able to perform like him, the game would be dead, you couldnt play anymore.

As long as even the biggest noob CV will spot you however, as long everyone will hate CVs. Noob CVs that cant hit me dont bother me. But they are still spotting me for their team, which ruins my entire game, as they keep comming... and comming... and comming :cap_fainting:

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Something something rework goals.

Something something skill gap.

:Smile_hiding:

Well, its not like they have been lying anyway, so meh? :cap_yes:

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1 minute ago, Yoshanai said:

Well yes of course. All this ruckus about spotting is just because people who make these threads aren't in constant pain of having El2a on the enemy team. If they had they wouldn't even think of spotting being the issue. This is the point I'm making in the most narcissistic way possible.

 

It goes much further then this. IF 75% of the CV playerbase would only be close to his skill level (which is not easy, granted, but not impossible either!) then the game would be dead. Because CVs would dominate every tier even more then Hosho does T4 right now. As simple as dead. There would literally be a bonfire in front of the WG headquarter and ppl would demand to burn Kislyi and SubbO on it.

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