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Sehales

ST - Peculiarities of Günther Lütjens

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German unique commander Günther Lütjens

Soon we will be testing a unique German commander, so today we are ready to reveal the current concept of his talents and improved skills:

  • Secondary Armament Expert: after receiving 100 "Secondary hits" ribbons, the reload time of secondary armament is reduced by 15%. Talent can be activated once per battle.
  • Iron Strike: after receiving 140 "Main battery hits" ribbons, the reload time of the main battery is reduced by 7.5%. Talent can be activated once per battle.

  • Exemplary Reconnaissance: after receiving 3 "Spotted " ribbons, the ship's hit points are partially restored. The talent restores 300 hit points per second. Its duration in seconds is equal to the ship's tier (e.g. Tier V = 5 seconds; Tier VI = 6 seconds; etc.). This talent can be activated repeatedly.

  • Air superiority: After receiving 30 "Rocket hits", "Bomb hits", or "Torpedo hits" ribbons, the aircraft restoration time is reduced by 10%. Talent can be activated once per fight.

 

While working on Günther Lütjens' talents, we wanted to create a commander who would bring something to the table for each class of ships. Therefore, each one of his four talents complements one of them:

  • "Secondary Armament Expert" will strengthen one of the main advantages of German battleships - a powerful secondary armament.
  • "Iron Strike" will most often be activated on cruisers, giving them a decent increase in rate of fire.
  • "Exemplary Reconnaissance" will prove especially useful to destroyer captains. The ability to recover hit points will increase their combat effectiveness. The scouting/flanking playstyle of destroyers also make it quite easy to earn "Spotted" ribbons in this type of ship.
  • "Air superiority" only works for aircraft carriers.

 

The new commander also has the following improved skills:

  • Preventive Maintenance: -45% to the risk of modules becoming incapacitated instead of the basic -30%.
  • Expert Marksman: +3 deg/sec to the traverse speed of turrets with a gun caliber up to 139 mm and +1 deg/sec to the traverse speed of turrets with a gun caliber above 139 mm instead of basic +2.5/0.7 deg/sec.
  • Improved Engine Boost: +12.5% to the aircraft engine boost time instead of the basic -10%.

 

Test ships

The publication with the characteristics of the American Tier X cruiser Puerto Rico contained a small inaccuracy: it was stated that the maximum dispersion of the ship's shells is 206 m, but in fact it is 248 m and the ship was tested with this value.

 

 

Please note that the information in the Development Blog is preliminary and subject to change.

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So it's only said for the "Air superiority" talent to be limited to one class of ship. Other talents aren't explicitly said to be limited to any class of ships so is it possible to activate other talents like secondary reload booster or exemplary reconnaissance in a Graf Zeppelin as well? Because GZ has fearsome secondaries as well....also it can spot, so recovering HP during fight in a carrier would be viable? :Smile_teethhappy:

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Ok, it's nice the "talents" have uses for almost all ships and I love they do not seem downright overpowered.

 

On the other hand, the captain still best fits Graf Zeppelin. You can obviously get the CV focused bonuses while also in theory get the secondary buff and you pretty much get the heal on demand.

No other class can get that much out of the captain.

 

German DDs would kinda use the enhanced skills (expert marksmen and preventive maintenance), and in theory they would really use the heal. But the problem is, you're far more likely to get a bunch of spotting ribbons at the beginning of battle, right before you start taking damage. So the heals are wasted. And when you would use the heal, you'll be hard pressed to accumulate another 3 spotted ribbons (which a CV can do quite well).

Oh, and you might also manage the 140 main battery hits on some of the DDs.

 

German BBs can obviously use the enhanced expert marksmen skill and the secondaries buff, but 140 main battery hits? That looks very sketchy. And while you might get some spotting ribbons if you survive till late game, the heal is so pitiful it shouldn't really matter.

 

German cruisers benefit mostly just from the main battery hits talent. Again they can get some spotting ribbons, but 3k heal at T10 isn't gonna do much. And expert marksmen isn't that useful for them either.

 

@Sehales Wouldn't it make more sense to tie the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" healing talent rather to spotting damage than spotting ribbons? Then a DD that spots throughout the game is rewarded with a heal that is far more useful. As I said, spotting ribbons are most likely to be gotten right at game start, when no damage has yet been taken instead.

At the same time, BBs and cruisers still won't benefit too much even if they happen to be closest to enemies and spot (though that I think should still be rewarded) because the heal is very small and only really matters for low hp ships like destroyers.

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8 hours ago, Toivia said:

@Sehales Wouldn't it make more sense to tie the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" healing talent rather to spotting damage than spotting ribbons? Then a DD that spots throughout the game is rewarded with a heal that is far more useful. As I said, spotting ribbons are most likely to be gotten right at game start, when no damage has yet been taken instead.

:Smile_great:

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18 hours ago, Sehales said:

"Exemplary Reconnaissance" will prove especially useful to destroyer captains. The ability to recover hit points will increase their combat effectiveness. The scouting/flanking playstyle of destroyers also make it quite easy to earn "Spotted" ribbons in this type of ship.

What? The german DDs with their bad concealment, limited torpedo range, low torpedo damage, bad AA and at best mediocre speed are now the "scouting/flanking" DDs? Maybe the guy coming up with these ideas should start playing the game. Did you ever try to get some spotting ribbons with a DD while a CV is attacking on the flank you are? Good luck with that...

 

Overall, after introducing more and more ships with gimmicks, starting to do the same with the commanders isn't a concept i would approve.

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I think it would have been far more interesting to have the secondaries reload skill reworked to increase the accuracy to the level of the manual fire control skill only without having to select a target to get that buff.

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3 hours ago, piet11111 said:

I think it would have been far more interesting to have the secondaries reload skill reworked to increase the accuracy to the level of the manual fire control skill only without having to select a target to get that buff.

But then you'd have to get 100 hits with the stock accuracy just to get manual accuracy. Doesn't seem like much of a bonus to me.

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7 hours ago, piet11111 said:

I think it would have been far more interesting to have the secondaries reload skill reworked to increase the accuracy to the level of the manual fire control skill only without having to select a target to get that buff.

So what would it do if you already have manual secondaries, cause with that skill they don't auto fire so you get no benefit from it.

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6 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

So what would it do if you already have manual secondaries, cause with that skill they don't auto fire so you get no benefit from it.

 

Well then WG could give it the auto fire and maybe the reload buff.

 

Just a flat reload buff is imo rather lazy and uninspired (sorry but its not like the secondary armaments are that spectacularly effective on the germans compared to massa and georgia) i think with my proposal it allows the player to be a bit more flexible with the point allocation where you can now either spend those points on something else or really go all in on the secondaries and get more out of them.

 

(or remove the selecting a target requirement for the manual fire control skill all together its not that good a skill anyway)

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On 11/15/2019 at 4:00 PM, Sehales said:

German unique commander Günther Lütjens

Soon we will be testing a unique German commander, so today we are ready to reveal the current concept of his talents and improved skills:

  • Secondary Armament Expert: after receiving 100 "Secondary hits" ribbons, the reload time of secondary armament is reduced by 15%. Talent can be activated once per battle.
  • Iron Strike: after receiving 140 "Main battery hits" ribbons, the reload time of the main battery is reduced by 7.5%. Talent can be activated once per battle.

  • Exemplary Reconnaissance: after receiving 3 "Spotted " ribbons, the ship's hit points are partially restored. The talent restores 300 hit points per second. Its duration in seconds is equal to the ship's tier (e.g. Tier V = 5 seconds; Tier VI = 6 seconds; etc.). This talent can be activated repeatedly.

  • Air superiority: After receiving 30 "Rocket hits", "Bomb hits", or "Torpedo hits" ribbons, the aircraft restoration time is reduced by 10%. Talent can be activated once per fight.

 

While working on Günther Lütjens' talents, we wanted to create a commander who would bring something to the table for each class of ships. Therefore, each one of his four talents complements one of them:

  • "Secondary Armament Expert" will strengthen one of the main advantages of German battleships - a powerful secondary armament.
  • "Iron Strike" will most often be activated on cruisers, giving them a decent increase in rate of fire.
  • "Exemplary Reconnaissance" will prove especially useful to destroyer captains. The ability to recover hit points will increase their combat effectiveness. The scouting/flanking playstyle of destroyers also make it quite easy to earn "Spotted" ribbons in this type of ship.
  • "Air superiority" only works for aircraft carriers.

 

The new commander also has the following improved skills:

  • Preventive Maintenance: -45% to the risk of modules becoming incapacitated instead of the basic -30%.
  • Expert Marksman: +3 deg/sec to the traverse speed of turrets with a gun caliber up to 139 mm and +1 deg/sec to the traverse speed of turrets with a gun caliber above 139 mm instead of basic +2.5/0.7 deg/sec.
  • Improved Engine Boost: +12.5% to the aircraft engine boost time instead of the basic -10%.

 

 

Please note that the information in the Development Blog is preliminary and subject to change.

 

I am well aware that whatever any player posts on this forum is totally ignored about 99% of the time by the WOWS decision makers.

 

Having said that, I post this remark concerning the upcoming German Commander "Günther Lütjens".

 

With the current state of game play the existing German Commanders "Franz von Jütland" and "Reinhart von Jütland" have two improved skills, "Handyman" and "Improved Vigilance" that were already practically hardly useful when these Commanders were introduced and nowadays they are practically useless. Sadly the premium German Commander "Friedrich Bonte" has no improved skills or talents whatsoever in WOWS.

 

Since these three German Commanders have not received a "rework" that makes the upcoming "Günther Lütjens" the only possible German Commander with useful improved skills and talents to be available in the foreseeable future.

 

Looking at the current setup of "Günther Lütjens" I propose to make some adjustments to improve the Commander and make him more useful to all classes and with talents that are more accessible to all players, meaning both the lesser skilled and the highly skilled players.

 

I propose these changes to Günther Lütjens:

 

  • Iron Strike: after receiving 100 (so 100 instead of the current 140) "Main battery hits" ribbons, the reload time of the main battery is reduced by 7.5%. Talent can be activated once per battle. This makes the talent more accessible for the German Cruisers armed with 20 cm guns (PRINZ EUGEN) and 15 cm gun armed German Destroyers (Z 39) that have a comparatively low rate of fire. The Italian Commander "Luigi Sansonetti" also has a 100 main battery hits requirement for his "Desperate Resistance" talent, so this would bring the "Iron Strike" talent of "Günther Lütjens" at the same requirement level.

 

  • Defiant Resilience: if his ship's HP drops below 10% , the ship's hit points are partially restored. The talent restores 300 hit points per second. Its duration in seconds is equal to the ship's tier (e.g. Tier V = 5 seconds; Tier VI = 6 seconds; etc.). This talent can be activated repeatedly. This talent replaces the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent that has the same bonus but has the requirement "after receiving 3 "Spotted " ribbons". The "Defiant Resilience" talent would be more accessible to German Destroyers in matches where Carriers are present than the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent and it would also encourage players to play more aggressively because of the hit point restoration that would be activated as a result of damage incurred in actual contact and battle with enemy ships, or in case of Destroyers when being heavily damaged by air attacks from an enemy Carrier when flanking. Additionally it would also be the ONLY talent that would be useful to ALL classes, something that "Günther Lütjens" currently does not have. The "if his ship's HP drops below 10%" requirement for "the Defiant Resilience" talent is the same as the requirement for the "Will to Victory" talent of the USSR Commander "Nikolay Kuznetsov", so this would bring the "Defiant Resilience" talent of "Günther Lütjens" at the same requirement level.

 

  • Air superiority: After receiving 30 "Rocket hits", "Bomb hits", or "Torpedo hits" ribbons, the aircraft restoration time is reduced by 20% (so 20% instead of the current 10%). Talent can be activated once per fight. The USA Commander "William Halsey" also has a 20% aircraft restoration time bonus  for his "Hit Hard!" talent, so this would bring the "Air Superiority" talent of "Günther Lütjens" at the same bonus level. For the GRAF ZEPPELIN, the only German Carrier in WOWS and among the three most expensive premium ships in the game, an aircraft restoration bonus of 10% is too insignificant. The USA Carriers generally have better aircraft restoration times already in WOWS compared to GRAF ZEPPELIN and if they can get a 20% aircraft restoration bonus via USA Commander "William Halsey" then it makes no sense to give only a 10% aircraft restoration bonus to "Günther Lütjens".

 

 

Furthermore I propose to replace this current improved skill of "Günther Lütjens":

 

  • Expert Maintenance replaces Preventative Maintenance, and reduces the the risk of incapacitation of modules by -45% (normally -30%).

 

With this improved skill:

 

  • Adrenaline Surge replaces Adrenaline Rush, and reduces the reload time of all types of armament by -0.25% for each 1% of HP lost. (normally -0.2%).

 

The Adrenaline Surge improved skill is the same improved skill that the French Commanders "Jean-Jacques Honore" and "Charles-Henri Honore" have. It encourages more aggressive play and it would also be the ONLY improved skill that is useful to ALL classes, something that "Günther Lütjens" currently does not have.

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3 hours ago, Widar_Thule said:

Iron Strike: after receiving 100 (so 100 instead of the current 140) "Main battery hits" ribbons, the reload time of the main battery is reduced by 7.5%. Talent can be activated once per battle. This makes the talent more accessible for the German Cruisers armed with 20 cm guns (PRINZ EUGEN) and 15 cm gun armed German Destroyers (Z 39) that have a comparatively low rate of fire. The Italian Commander "Luigi Sansonetti" also has a 100 main battery hits requirement for his "Desperate Resistance" talent, so this would bring the "Iron Strike" talent of "Günther Lütjens" at the same requirement level.

The desperate resistance talent only increases the duration of consumables by 10%, the 7.5% reload speed increase of Iron Strike is far more significant and the requirements should thus be higher.

 

3 hours ago, Widar_Thule said:

Defiant Resilience: if his ship's HP drops below 10% , the ship's hit points are partially restored. The talent restores 300 hit points per second. Its duration in seconds is equal to the ship's tier (e.g. Tier V = 5 seconds; Tier VI = 6 seconds; etc.). This talent can be activated repeatedly. This talent replaces the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent that has the same bonus but has the requirement "after receiving 3 "Spotted " ribbons". The "Defiant Resilience" talent would be more accessible to German Destroyers in matches where Carriers are present than the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent and it would also encourage players to play more aggressively because of the hit point restoration that would be activated as a result of damage incurred in actual contact and battle with enemy ships, or in case of Destroyers when being heavily damaged by air attacks from an enemy Carrier when flanking. Additionally it would also be the ONLY talent that would be useful to ALL classes, something that "Günther Lütjens" currently does not have. The "if his ship's HP drops below 10%" requirement for "the Defiant Resilience" talent is the same as the requirement for the "Will to Victory" talent of the USSR Commander "Nikolay Kuznetsov", so this would bring the "Defiant Resilience" talent of "Günther Lütjens" at the same requirement level.

I am not certain how you would expect someone to drop their HP below 10% repeatedly and I do not see how this requirement makes it more accessible to DDs than spotting, even with the spotting performed by friendly CVs. You must somehow survive a salvo, torpedo or airstrike with less than 10% hp but more than 0% to benefit from the talent, you are more likely to simply die outright. I prefer the existing design which allows a DD to potentially heal itself of a significant portion of its health by remaining hidden and performing a spotting role, a role many DDs are relegated to when their health is too low to risk any engagements. The design by WG allows a DD to heal itself beyond what would only be <10% + 3000 hp as you planned.

 

4 hours ago, Widar_Thule said:

Air superiority: After receiving 30 "Rocket hits", "Bomb hits", or "Torpedo hits" ribbons, the aircraft restoration time is reduced by 20% (so 20% instead of the current 10%). Talent can be activated once per fight. The USA Commander "William Halsey" also has a 20% aircraft restoration time bonus  for his "Hit Hard!" talent, so this would bring the "Air Superiority" talent of "Günther Lütjens" at the same bonus level. For the GRAF ZEPPELIN, the only German Carrier in WOWS and among the three most expensive premium ships in the game, an aircraft restoration bonus of 10% is too insignificant. The USA Carriers generally have better aircraft restoration times already in WOWS compared to GRAF ZEPPELIN and if they can get a 20% aircraft restoration bonus via USA Commander "William Halsey" then it makes no sense to give only a 10% aircraft restoration bonus to "Günther Lütjens".

Again, the requirements are different. The 20% increase is a reward for earning the Confederate achievement "Damage at least 6 enemy ships. Damage caused to each ship must exceed 20% of her normal HP. Can be obtained once per battle." which is significantly harder than dealing 30 aerial hits, especially with rockets. GZ can earn 32 rocket hits with a single squadron of fighters, this is no where near the difficulty of earning a confederate achievement. Not only this, but this is the only benefit that Halsey receives for CVs, in addition to his trait Lutjens also has the Improved Engine Boost skill.

 

4 hours ago, Widar_Thule said:

Furthermore I propose to replace this current improved skill of "Günther Lütjens":

  • Expert Maintenance replaces Preventative Maintenance, and reduces the the risk of incapacitation of modules by -45% (normally -30%).

With this improved skill:

  • Adrenaline Surge replaces Adrenaline Rush, and reduces the reload time of all types of armament by -0.25% for each 1% of HP lost. (normally -0.2%).

The Adrenaline Surge improved skill is the same improved skill that the French Commanders "Jean-Jacques Honore" and "Charles-Henri Honore" have. It encourages more aggressive play and it would also be the ONLY improved skill that is useful to ALL classes, something that "Günther Lütjens" currently does not have.

This is the third time you have used the argument that because another unique commander has something that Lutjens should have it too. JJ/CH Honore are not even legendary commanders. I am sure every commander would like an improved version of what is one of the most universally valuable commander skills, but the fact that these commanders have this enhanced skill is within the context of their nation and their other skills combined.

 

You cannot compare every commander trait to every other trait. Do you think Kuznetsovs traits are strong? The concealed reserves and will to victory? Of course, he only has two. Auboyneau by comparison does have have traits as powerful as these, because he has 3 traits. So does Sansonetti. Yamamoto has 2 traits, just like Halsey and Kuznetsov. Lutjens has received 4 traits, some of which will work on the same class of ship, they are not going to be individually comparable to Kuznetsov, Halsey or Yamamoto because they have 2 stronger, universal traits and their requirements are also very different. Lutjens doesn't need to earn a Kraken or a Confederate or be reduced to 10% hp to activate any of his traits. Furthermore, unlike Halsey or Yamamoto, who have 2 enhanced skills (EM+EL and EM+PM), or Auboyneau and Kuznetsov who have 1 enhanced skill (SE and JOAT), Lutjens has 3 enhanced skills, something useful regardless of what class you are playing. You can benefit from the bonuses that Lutjens brings in every single you game you play, that cannot be said for the other commanders.

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Remember that whatever we write here is totally ignored 99% of the time by the WOWS Decision Makers. So what you and I think on this matter is mostly relevant to us but to no one else.

 

Having said that...

 

15 hours ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

The desperate resistance talent only increases the duration of consumables by 10%, the 7.5% reload speed increase of Iron Strike is far more significant and the requirements should thus be higher.

 

Whether it is more significant is a matter of opinion. I disagree but in the grand scheme of things that is not relevant.

 

The main concept to take into account here is: Accessibility of a talent for players of ALL skill levels AND a talent that take the low accuracy and low rate of fire of German 20 cm Cruiser guns (PRINZ EUGEN) and 15 cm Destroyer Guns (Z 39) into account (in other words a "Günther Lütjens" talent must take the characteristics of German ships in WOWS into account). The "Iron Strike" talent is intended to be useful for German Cruisers and German Destroyers and some of their key ships have low accuracy and low rate of fire in WOWS.

 

For a German "Legendary Commander" you have to take into account the difference in rate of fire and accuracy too. With the German 20 cm guns of their Heavy Cruisers and 15 cm guns of their Destroyers it is too difficult for players that are lower skilled to get 140 main gun hits in a match. You can rest assured that the majority of players in WOWS cannot get 100 main battery gun hits with German Battleships in a match so they will not benefit from this talent anyway. We have more than enough ships and "Legendary Commanders" that have talents that are only useful to the most highly skilled players (look at the high player skill talent requirements of "Isoroku Yamamoto" and "William Halsey" for example). We do not need more "Legendary Commanders" that have talents that are only for the happy few highly skilled players to enjoy in WOWS. In other words there is no use for talents that remain more or less permanently locked away behind a skill wall for the majority of the player base in WOWS.

 

15 hours ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

I am not certain how you would expect someone to drop their HP below 10% repeatedly and I do not see how this requirement makes it more accessible to DDs than spotting, even with the spotting performed by friendly CVs. You must somehow survive a salvo, torpedo or airstrike with less than 10% hp but more than 0% to benefit from the talent, you are more likely to simply die outright. I prefer the existing design which allows a DD to potentially heal itself of a significant portion of its health by remaining hidden and performing a spotting role, a role many DDs are relegated to when their health is too low to risk any engagements. The design by WG allows a DD to heal itself beyond what would only be <10% + 3000 hp as you planned.

 

The main concept to take into account here is: Accessibility of a talent for players of ALL skill levels AND giving "Günther Lütjens" at least ONE talent that is useful to ALL classes (so Destroyers, Cruisers, Battleships and Carriers). Something that "Günther Lütjens" currently does not have.

 

The "repeatedly" part of the "Defiant Resilience" talent is the same as for the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent, I did not change that part nor invent it. It would be rare to have the talent activated more than once even with "Defiant Resilience". I simply left that part as it is now, there is no reason to change that part of the talent. With "Defiant Resilience" however there is a good chance that the talent will be activated at least once per match IF a German player plays aggressively with "Günther Lütjens" AND the "Defiant Resilience" talent would be useful to ALL ship classes in WOWS, something that "Günther Lütjens" currently does not have. Since Destroyers are usually the ships that are spotted and sunk first they would obliviously benefit most from the "Defiant Resilience" talent and be the ones to make use of it first and most. They might even be the ones to use it more than once if they can use smoke to break contact, repair and return to battle or if being attacked by enemy Carrier Aircraft, it would be rare but not impossible. Unlike with "Exemplary Reconnaissance".

 

When you look at the requirements for the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent it becomes clear that it will be next to impossible for a German Destroyer to activate that when a friendly Carrier is present, because the friendly Carrier will spot most if not all enemy ships first. Next to that "Exemplary Reconnaissance" requires a passive game play approach: spot and fall back. Passive game play is is not really beneficial to the game as a whole and also boring as hell for a player. Even when friendly Carriers are not present such a passive game play approach becomes even impossible to do considering the speed of German Destroyers when they are facing higher speed Destroyers such as the French have in WOWS for example. When taking radar at higher Tiers into account the passive "spot and fall back" approach becomes even more impossible to pull off even when friendly Carriers are not present. The "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent is only possible under a set of exceptional circumstances that are basically beyond direct control of a player through his own actions. So the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent will simply be locked away behind a "exceptional occurrence" wall (in other words: when the stars align favourably) instead of it being a talent that can be activated by players of all skill levels through their own actions. We do not need (more) talents like that in WOWS.

 

As to German Destroyers and Carriers I can only look at my own experience in Carriers. I normally hunt them down with a vengeance and they cannot repair any of the damage I inflict on them with my Carrier Aircraft. With "Defiant Resilience" German Destroyers will have at least one talent to assist them after being badly damaged by Carrier Aircraft. With "Exemplary Reconnaissance" the German Destroyer will normally never get a chance to activate the talent due to the friendly Carrier doing most of the spotting and that means the German Destroyer will still be spotted and hit by the enemy Carrier without having the benefit of that repair that "Exemplary Reconnaissance" offers.

 

So "Defiant Resilience" is not only a talent for all classes but especially helps the generally mediocre German Destroyers in WOWS versus enemy Carriers and fast enemy ships like French Destroyers AND there is a good chance that "Defiant Resilience" will be activated at least ONCE per match when "Günther Lütjens" is used for aggressive game play. And aggressive game play is beneficial for game play as a whole.

 

15 hours ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

Again, the requirements are different. The 20% increase is a reward for earning the Confederate achievement "Damage at least 6 enemy ships. Damage caused to each ship must exceed 20% of her normal HP. Can be obtained once per battle." which is significantly harder than dealing 30 aerial hits, especially with rockets. GZ can earn 32 rocket hits with a single squadron of fighters, this is no where near the difficulty of earning a confederate achievement. Not only this, but this is the only benefit that Halsey receives for CVs, in addition to his trait Lutjens also has the Improved Engine Boost skill.

 

You have to look forward and not backward. "William Halsey" and "Isoroku Yamamoto" have requirements for their talents that are pre-2019 level. Their talent requirements are simply beyond the skill level of most players in WOWS and they can regularly only be enjoyed by the happy few highly skilled players. That is bad game design. As such these two "Legendary Commanders" were badly designed because due to their talent REQUIREMENTS their talents are a constant bonus for the highly skilled players and offer nothing (but punishment) to the lower skilled players.

 

The main concept to take into account here is: Accessibility of a talent for players of ALL skill levels by not adding more talents in WOWS that are only useful to the most highly skilled players (such as the the high player skill talent requirements of "Isoroku Yamamoto" and "William Halsey") AND a talent that take the low restoration time of the German Aircraft Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN) into account (in other words a "Günther Lütjens" talent must take the characteristics of German ships in WOWS into account).

 

An aircraft restoration time bonus of 10% is simply too low for a German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN). It makes no difference at all, in other words it is useless.

 

Take a look at this topic by someone that used "Günther Lütjens" on the Public Test Server:

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/205294-the-complete-uselessness-of-günther-lütjenss-air-superiority-skill/

 

The USA Carriers generally have better aircraft restoration times by default in WOWS compared to a German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN) and if they can get a 20% aircraft restoration bonus via USA Commander "William Halsey" then it makes no sense to give only a 10% aircraft restoration bonus to "Günther Lütjens". A 10% bonus will have NO IMPACT AT ALL for a German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN) in a match. The USA Carriers are already much more effective in terms of aircraft restoration than a German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN) due to the generally better default aircraft restoration times that the USA Carriers already have. So a 10% aircraft restoration time bonus by "Günther Lütjens" would still make a German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN) quite inferior compared to Japanese and USA Carriers in WOWS. That is ridiculous, especially considering that the "Günther Lütjens" Commander will cost about 70 Euros (if you want to buy the "Günther Lütjens" Commander with event containers during the event for him like was done with "Nikolay Kuznetsov" Commander) or a considerable investment in time (either during the event for him or in terms of 175,000 coal like for "Nikolay Kuznetsov").

 

You have to compare apples to apples.

 

USA and Japanese Carriers can easily inflict more damage on the enemy fleet than a German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN) because:

 

- Their aircraft weapons do more damage;

- Their aircraft weapon chance to hit rate is higher;

- Their aircraft restoration times are better;

- Their aircraft have more hit points (aircraft suvivability);

- They have more aircraft on the flight deck and/or more aircraft per squadron.

 

For a comparison of values take a look at this topic:

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/127478-graf-zeppelin-an-analysis/

 

The "Legendary Commander" "Isoroku Yamamoto" has a 16% aircraft restoration time bonus and "Legendary Commander" "William Halsey" has a 20% aircraft restoration time bonus. So those percentages already are a benchmark for Japanese and USA Carriers in WOWS that seriously outperform a German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN) in terms of effectiveness.

 

A "Kraken" achievement with pre-2019 "Isoroku Yamamoto" or a "Confederate" achievement with pre-2019 "William Halsey" is locked away more or less permanently behind a skill wall for the majority of the player base in a Carrier in WOWS. The newer 2019 "Legendary Commanders" like "Nikolay Kuznetsov" and "Luigi Sansonetti" have been designed differently with talents that are more or less accessible to players of all skill levels. It is clear that WOWS is introducing new "Legendary Commanders" with talents that are useful to players of all skill levels. "Legendary Commander" "Günther Lütjents" also is setup to be more friendly for players of all skill levels. As such one cannot keep looking at how "Isoroku Yamamoto" and "William Halsey" were setup in terms of requirements for a talent but instead look to the requirements that are used for talents by 2019 "Legendary Commanders" like "Nikolay Kuznetsov" and "Luigi Sansonetti".

 

It is not that difficult for a highly skilled player to get a "Kraken" achievement with a Tier 8+ Japanese Carrier or a "Confederate" achievement with a Tier 8+ USA Carrier. And when a highly skilled player is given that 16% Japanese or 20% USA aircraft restoration bonus in their already better aircraft restoration time Carriers, the average player in a German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN)  facing them will be even less able to help his fleet even with a "Günther Lütjens" and his current 10% aircraft restoration bonus. A 10% aircraft time restoration bonus for a  German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN) with a 70 Euro "Legendary Commander" is simply too low and too insignificant to have any impact due to already default superior performance setup of the Japanese and USA Carriers in WOWS. Even with a 20% aircraft time restoration bonus for a German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN) that Carrier would still remain inferior to a Japanese or USA Carrier in terms of effectiveness but at least the 20% would be a noticable improvement for the German Carrier player.

 

As to the Engine Boost improved skill bonus, you can only use an Engine Boost a limited amount of times and for a short duration of time so it is nice but not a game changer that significantly increases damage potential. Having an improved skill bonus to German Carrier Aircraft Hit Points would be a better alternative than an Engine Boost bonus because that bonus would be constant and increase aircraft survability and thus damage potential. The 20% and 16% aircraft restoration time bonus for "William Halsey" and "Isoroku Yamamoto" when combined with the advantages already built into Japanese and USA Carriers is however a game changer that significantly increases damage potential. So a minor Engine Boost and minor Aircraft Restoration Time bonus for a German Carrier (GRAF ZEPPELIN) via "Günther Lütjens" cannot be compared to the major Aircraft Restoration Time bonus that the USA and Japanese Carriers enjoy via  "William Halsey" and "Isoroku Yamamoto".

 

15 hours ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

This is the third time you have used the argument that because another unique commander has something that Lutjens should have it too. JJ/CH Honore are not even legendary commanders. I am sure every commander would like an improved version of what is one of the most universally valuable commander skills, but the fact that these commanders have this enhanced skill is within the context of their nation and their other skills combined.

 

You cannot compare every commander trait to every other trait. Do you think Kuznetsovs traits are strong? The concealed reserves and will to victory? Of course, he only has two. Auboyneau by comparison does have have traits as powerful as these, because he has 3 traits. So does Sansonetti. Yamamoto has 2 traits, just like Halsey and Kuznetsov. Lutjens has received 4 traits, some of which will work on the same class of ship, they are not going to be individually comparable to Kuznetsov, Halsey or Yamamoto because they have 2 stronger, universal traits and their requirements are also very different. Lutjens doesn't need to earn a Kraken or a Confederate or be reduced to 10% hp to activate any of his traits. Furthermore, unlike Halsey or Yamamoto, who have 2 enhanced skills (EM+EL and EM+PM), or Auboyneau and Kuznetsov who have 1 enhanced skill (SE and JOAT), Lutjens has 3 enhanced skills, something useful regardless of what class you are playing. You can benefit from the bonuses that Lutjens brings in every single you game you play, that cannot be said for the other commanders.

 

You are mixing up talents and improved skills. They are something different with different requirements.

 

Yes, I propose adjustments that remain within that which already exists. They are more likely to be met than proposing something new because WOWS Decision Makers suffer from the "Not Invented Here syndrome" (NIH syndrome). And when a talent or improved skill is proposed for "Günther Lutjens" I look to those that are useful to the German line and to ALL classes.

 

All existing "Legendary Commanders" in WOWS have one or more improved skills that are also used by one or more "Unique Commanders". And none of the improved skills are listed as "national" skills that are limited to one nation, indeed many improved skills are used by both "Unique Commanders" and "Legendary Commanders" of several nations.

 

The "Adrenaline Surge" improved skill fits in with the role of German ships in WOWS of close range fighters that can take a lot of damage. The "Expert Maintenance" improved skill in the current state of the game is fairly useless for the German ships of all classes. We do not need a "Günther Lütjens" that has useless improved skills like the "Unique Commanders" "Franz von Jütland" and "Reinhart von Jütland" already have.

 

Forget about the pre-2019 talent requirements for the "Legendary Commanders " "Isoroku Yamamoto" and "William Halsey". They were a failure because they are locked away more or less permanently behind a skill wall for the majority of the player base in WOWS and their talents can regularly only be enjoyed by the happy few highly skilled players. The newer 2019 "Legendary Commanders" like "Nikolay Kuznetsov" and "Luigi Sansonetti" have been designed differently with talents that are more or less accessible to players of all skill levels. It is clear that WOWS is introducing new "Legendary Commanders" with talents that are useful to players of all skill levels. "Legendary Commander" "Günther Lütjents" also is clearly setup to be more friendly for players of all skill levels.

 

"Günther Lütjens" will cost 70 Euro in terms of events containers or a considerable investment in time in terms of the event for him or 175,000 Coal a few months after the event for him (like with "Nikolay Kuznetsov"). For such an investment we the players should ask for "all round" "Legendary Commanders" that are tailored to all classes of that nation and to the characteristics of the nation he is added to AND with talents and improved skills that can be used by players of all skill levels and not just the happy few highly skilled players. Look forward and not backward.

 

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This is such a huge wall of text I will not begin to respond to individual comments, but there is error in your reasoning.

 

Firstly, percentile bonuses are entirely relative. A 10% bonus provides a 10% bonus, this is obviously half as impactful as a 20% bonus. It makes absolutely no difference whether you are talking about a 3 second gun reload, 30 second gun reload, 60 second plane restoration or 40 second consumable duration. 10% is 10%, both fast and slow guns can fire 10% faster and their dpm is increased by 10%, the number of fires they can start per minute increases by 10%, it is a 10% bonus. If German ships have relatively slower reload speeds (which is not true, their DDs have 4s reload at almost every tier which is faster than every nation except the US and tier 8-10 PAN DDs and Daring, the Cruisers have almost the best reload speeds among CAs at every tier with only American CAs being faster and the BBs also have the fastest reload speeds at every tier except for tier 10) then that would be totally irrelevant anyway since the gain of a % bonus is always relative. Most German ships can obtain 140 hits in 2 minutes of firing.

 

Also, you used Sansonetti as a comparison before, because his inferior duration extension talent only takes 100 hits to obtain. Yet, Italian CAs have the lowest rounds per minute at every tier so it would infact be more difficult for Italians, and thus the lowered requirement is more justified.

 

Secondly, you are not looking at the bigger picture of what exactly this commander would be like if he received all of the changes you proposed. He would be monstrously overpowered. You argue that the talents are not accessible enough to the average player but A) that metric is not for you to determine and B) if you think adding a bunch of easy to access but excessively powerful talents to a commander makes it balanced it does not. And we should be avoiding powercreep where possible, legendary commanders should not exist to have a decisive beneficial impact on a ship, this is why the legendary commanders have perks that are locked behind achievements. A lot of them (because it is not just the older ones like Halsey and Yamamoto; Sansonetti also has a Confederate Achievement perk) will only trigger towards the end of a particularly good game. Lutjens already gets a number of good bonuses; reload speed, aircraft restoration time, secondary reload time and ambient healing and none of these perks are locked behind achievements. Earning 140 main battery hits or 3 spotting ribbons is trivial, getting 30 aerial hits is pathetically easy, the benefits for doing so do not need to be made any stronger. You want to give him improved AR, one of the best skills in the game, do you think it is even balanced to simply replace an improved 1pt skill with an improved 2pt skill and do nothing to reduce his power elsewhere to compensate for this buff?

 

The reason why I use Halsey and Yamamoto as comparisons more so than Kuznetsov, Auboyneau and Sansonetti are that Halsey and Yamamoto can be used on all 4 clases of ship and thus should have perks that benefit all 4 classes of ship, there are no Soviet, French or Italian CVs nor any Italian DDs yet, have you looked at Kuznetsov and considered him for use as a CV commander? He does not have a single useful perk. Halsey and Yamamoto have a single big talent which can benefit any class of ship if you can meet the requirements (Confederate and Kraken) and smaller talents that benefit most ships also locked behind achievements (Double Strike and First Blood). They do not have universally useful enhanced skills, neither of them have skills that are useful for CVs and neither of Halseys skills are valuable for US DDs. Lutjens has talents that benefit multiple classes of ship with both universal talents and talents specific to classes as well as a wider range of enhanced skills to offer a skill to every class as well;

 

DD - Iron Strike (Easily obtained with German DDs if they are playing with a gunnery focus, 4 guns can obtain this in less than 2 minutes), Exemplary Recon (Z-52 healing for 3000 every time it gets 3 spotting ribbons is an incredible boost to survivability) and Preventative Maintenance is a popular commander skill on DDs, much of the community is split between either PT or PM as the first skill on the majority of ships.

CA - Iron Strike again, Exemplary Recon may not be as easily achieved as a CA until later in a game and the heal is relatively less effective but if you're one of the last remaining ships then getting a small heal for every 3rd spotting ribbon could make a difference, especially for the lower tiers that cannot heal, Preventative Maintenance again and Expert Marksman is useful on lots of German CAs so the almost +50%

BB - Iron Stike again, Exemplary Recon again relatively less effective but still working, PM and EM are both useful skills but in addition to the already 4 perks available the BBs can benefit from Secondary Armament Expert for a massive 15% increase to secondary RoF is both easy to achieve when secondary specced and extremely useful.

CV - Exemplary Recon is less useful for CVs not because they struggle to meet the requirements but because they do not tend to survive after taking damage in the first place, for GZ this may be less true as she can engage a smaller ship in close quarters and possible survive. The continuous healing from repeatedly spotting enemy ships could help her recover from an earlier engagement, but this is highly situational and so note hugeful valuable. Secondary Armament Expert is also beneficial, but similarly situational. Air Superiority is the 3rd talent that GZ can benefit from and it is a 10% increase to aircraft restoration time that you can earn in the first 2 minutes of every single game. PM and EM are useful to GZ but Lutjens also gets enhanced EB which should already be taken by 100% of CV commanders and since GZ gets +40knt boost on her torpedo and dive bombers instead of the standard +35 as well as a fighter Engine Cooling consumable that lasts for 10 seconds instead of 5 it makes sense that the german CV commander provides further bonuses to her engine boosting.

 

No matter what class you play he has relevant perks that are already straightforward to obtain, if you play with secondarys your secondarys are improved, if you play with aircraft your aircraft are improved, if you play as a spotting DD you are rewarded, if you play as a gunboat DD you are rewarded, if you are aggressive early and get a good number of primary and secondary hits you are rewarded. He does not need the massive improvements you are suggesting.

 

And some final points.

  • The balancing of GZ is an entirely different subject, you cannot decide that Lutjens needs more buffs because GZ is underperforming. That means that GZ needs buffs, not Lutjens. (GZ does needs buffs, also give her back her Stukas).
  • If things are difficult for unskilled players to obtain that is just too bad, you can only make things easier for everyone which means the better players will get even more of an upperhand. Not only that but also potential for sealclubbing should be avoided as some players will inevitably bring such a commander into low tier. The requirements already detailed seem perfectly reasonable and I see no problem why the average player could not benefit from most skills in the majority of games as they currently are.
  • The monetary cost of Lutjens (the 70 eur price you have quoted is speculative as far as I am aware) should also not be a factor into how well he performs. You should not expect to obtain overpowered content just because of the cost, although that appears to be what you want.
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On 12/7/2019 at 9:59 PM, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

-- snip --

 

... final points.

  • The balancing of GZ is an entirely different subject, you cannot decide that Lutjens needs more buffs because GZ is underperforming. That means that GZ needs buffs, not Lutjens. (GZ does needs buffs, also give her back her Stukas).
  • If things are difficult for unskilled players to obtain that is just too bad, you can only make things easier for everyone which means the better players will get even more of an upperhand. Not only that but also potential for sealclubbing should be avoided as some players will inevitably bring such a commander into low tier. The requirements already detailed seem perfectly reasonable and I see no problem why the average player could not benefit from most skills in the majority of games as they currently are.
  • The monetary cost of Lutjens (the 70 eur price you have quoted is speculative as far as I am aware) should also not be a factor into how well he performs. You should not expect to obtain overpowered content just because of the cost, although that appears to be what you want.

 

First of all I thank you for taking the time to respond to my posts and for sharing your thoughts on the subject. From your posts I can conclude that you are very happy with "Günther Lütjens" in his current setup. That is your opinion and all good and well for you from your point of view. I for reasons explained in detail above am of a different opinion and have a proposal that would make the 70 Euro "Legendary Commander" "Günther Lütjens" better suited for players of all skill levels and for all ship classes of the German ship line in WOWS. Like I said earlier whatever we write here will be ignored by WOWS decision makers anyway.

 

 

From your post I can conclude that you have either not fully read what I wrote and/or fully understood what I wrote. It would be useless for me to repeat what I wrote in other words. Instead I refer you to my previous post, to read that again because judging by some of your remarks it becomes clear that you have either not fully read what I wrote and/or fully understood what I wrote.

 

 

So instead of me repeating what I wrote and you then repeating your opinion in more and/or other words I will respond to your last three points of your post to bring this discussion to an end.

 

 

1.) The WOWS Staff member SubOctavian said a few months back that a German Carrier line would be introduced. Judging from the relatively large number of players playing the GRAF ZEPPELIN compared to Carriers like ENTERPRISE, SAIPAN and KAGA it is safe to assume that there is more money to be made by introducing more German Carriers in WOWS than by introducing Carriers from other nations. The GRAF ZEPPELIN has sold well, it has again sold well recently with the Black Friday sales. The sales numbers and the prospect of a German Carrier line has significance for "Legendary Commander" "Günther Lütjens". Following the usual "logic" of WOWS ship line development any new German Carriers will likely have the same characteristics as the GRAF ZEPPELIN (a Carrier that is the "ice breaker" for a new German Carrier line in the same manner as TIRPITZ was the "ice breaker" for the German Battleship line when she was introduced), and those characteristics are: fast aircraft, low hit point aircraft, low aircraft restoration times, few aircraft on the flight deck, few aircraft per attack flight, few aircraft per squadron, low number of ordnance carried, low damage per ordnance hit, low chance to hit per attack. My proposal also takes that into account. I am not just thinking of the current GRAF ZEPPELIN but also all German ship lines, including a future German Carrier line.

 

 

2.) A rework of the GRAF ZEPPELIN is a subject onto itself which I will not go into in this topic. My "Günther Lütjens" proposal does not take such a GRAF ZEPPELIN rework into account.

 

 

3.) You may not care about lower skilled players, but I do and so do the WOWS decision makers because they are the MAJORITY of the player base. Money and success in a game is in player base quantity not in player base quality. I have eight 19 skill point Commanders (and just under 2 million unspent elite Commander XP) and practically all "Unique" and "Legendary" Commanders except for "Nikolay Kuznetsov" and "Luigi Sansonetti" (I did not get these two because I was not interested in investing either the time or the money to get them). Many players on my friends list however have only one 19 skill point commander after years of playing and still not even acquired "Isoroku Yamamoto" and/or "William Halsey". And those that do will probably never be able to use the talents of these two "Legendary Commanders" in a match due to the skill wall their talents are locked behind. And that is bad for player base retention and bad for game play because it gives all the Commander advantages to the happy few highly skilled players. "Günther Lutjens" should be setup in such a way that players of all skill levels of all German ship classes have a decent chance to make use of the talents of that Commander in a "normal" match, not just the happy few highly skilled players that do not need these talents to win a match anyway. And currently "Günther Lütjens" is not setup in that way, especially concerning the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" and "Iron Strike" talents.

 

 

4.) The talents of "Günther Lütjents" should be "accessible" to players of all skill levels, no proposal is made to introduce new "overpowered" talents or improved skills. For 70 Euro a company should offer a product that brings something special, fun and accessible for all to the table, and that is not the same as overpowered. The 70 Euro cost can be determined by looking at "Nikolay Kuznetsov" for example. Looking at the tokens you needed for "Nikolay Kuznetsov" and how many event tokens you would get per premium event container you would have to buy premium event containers for just under 70 Euro during the event where "Nikolay Kuznetsov" was introduced as a "Legendary Commander". There is no reason to assume that the "Legendary Commander" "Günther Lütjens" will cost less in terms of event tokens via premium event containers than "Nikolay Kuznetsov" did. Especially so because anything "German" sells well in WOWS no matter how ridiculous the cost and how inferior the performance. Remember there are only two ways to unlock the 2019 "Legendary Commanders" like "Nikolay Kuznetsov", "Luigi Sansonetti" and "Günther Lütjens": either by spending real world money or by spending real world time. Not everybody has the time so they will have to pay the real world money. "So "Günther Lütjens" will cost 70 Euro in terms of event containers or a considerable investment in time in terms of the event for him or 175,000 Coal (= also investment in time) a few months after the event for him (like with "Nikolay Kuznetsov"). For such an investment we the players should ask for "all round" "Legendary Commanders" that are tailored to all classes of the nation they belong to and to the characteristics of the nation they are added to AND with talents and improved skills that can be used by players of all skill levels and not just the happy few highly skilled players. EDIT: In version 0.8.11 "Günther Lütjens" will be available in the armory for 175,000 coal, the same amount of coal as for "Nikolay Kuznetsov". Now all we need to wait for are "coal" containers that can be bought for Euros...

 

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Oh well, apparently no change for spotting damage for the heal...

 

So pretty useless for DDs still, sad.

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43 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Oh well, apparently no change for spotting damage for the heal...

 

So pretty useless for DDs still, sad.

 

Of course no change... The WOWS decision makers do not even listen to any advice given by a CC like "Flamu" (he remarked the same in one of his videos as you did in your post about the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent)...

 

Whatever any CC or any NA, Asia or Europe forum member remarks, the golden rule for LESTA is: we are going to ignore it because it is "NOT INVENTED HERE" (at LESTA in mother Russia) so we do not care...

 

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25 minutes ago, Widar_Thule said:

 

Of course no change... The WOWS decision makers do not even listen to any advice given by a CC like "Flamu" (he remarked the same in one of his videos as you did in your post about the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent)...

 

Whatever any CC or any NA, Asia or Europe forum member remarks, the golden rule for LESTA is: we are going to ignore it because it is "NOT INVENTED HERE" (at LESTA in mother Russia) so we do not care...

 

It was funny when after typing that proposal I switched to his stream maybe a day or so later and he was talking about the same thing...

 

I cannot help but think only Graf Zeppelin can get use of that small heal reliably. And that's still pointless if he takes no damage. So as dumb as it is, Gunther Lutjens kinda sorta works best on a secondary specced suicidal GZ.

 

And then they decide to only offer Lutjens for exorbitant amounts of coal in the armory. You must never underestimate their ability to [edited]stuff up.

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23 hours ago, Toivia said:

It was funny when after typing that proposal I switched to his stream maybe a day or so later and he was talking about the same thing...

 

I cannot help but think only Graf Zeppelin can get use of that small heal reliably. And that's still pointless if he takes no damage. So as dumb as it is, Gunther Lutjens kinda sorta works best on a secondary specced suicidal GZ.

 

And then they decide to only offer Lutjens for exorbitant amounts of coal in the armory. You must never underestimate their ability to [edited]stuff up.

 

The majority of responses on the NA forum, this forum, the German forum etc. more or less all are of the same opinion as you and I are on this subject. And as to be expected WOWS/LESTA decision makers totally ignore the consensus of their player base.

 

The heal ability on the GZ is not going to be of much use for GZ either unless she takes damage, breaks contact and then manages to spot 3x times. It is possible but it will be a rare occurrence at best and utterly useless most of the time.

 

Now what I am waiting for is a repeat of what WOWS offered for sale in December 2018.

 

In December 2018 players could buy Steel for Euros. Following that logic players can probably buy Coal for Euros in December 2019 so all those that do not have time to "grind" to get "Nikolay Kuznetsov", "Luigi Sansonetti" and "Günther Lütjens" for 175,000 coal each, can instead buy each "Legendary Commander" for something around 60-70 Euros.

 

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