The WoWS playerbase

[Mr_Sukebe]

Hi, as a noob to WoWS, hoping to kick of a discussion regarding the playerbase within WoWS and how to maintain it.

 

Only played 30 battles, but so far I’ve seen nothing but politeness and helpfulness both in game and in the forums, both of which are a breath of fresh air after playing WOT for nearly 5 years.

In addition, I’m very conscious that if anything, WoWS looks like it’ll require more teamworking for a team to be effective.  Losing say a T10 tank from a 15 man team due to say suicide by downing is clearly never good, but losing air-cover from a Carrier that has decided to go AFK is probably far more problematic.

 

Right now, if we do absolutely nothing, I see the following scenario:

• On full release, a big influx of noob players, some of whom will be the same “tomatoes” that have destroyed gameplay in WOT.  Initially, they’ll be outnumbered by the experienced, but that’ll change just as it has in WOT. 
• Unless stopped, random games will turn into a lottery of who has the fewest tomatoes, as you know they’ll be the people who’ve AFK’ed to T10 Battleships, and then will drop anchor in a corner of a map believing that their accuracy will be improved, and then shell things at max range
• Decent games will be the province of the equivalent of team battles

 

If you’re happy with the above, stop reading now.

 

If you’re not, then the question is what to do about it.  We’re at a really early stage of game development, and hopefully if we put out thoughts out NOW, maybe WG will consider taking some of them on board.

So, here’s a few ideas for consideration.  Let me know your thoughts and let’s discuss about some good options:

• Make the game pay to play, but maybe with a lower cost (e.g. $5/month).  The logic of this is simple.  WG themselves stated a little while ago that the worst players were those least willing to actually play.  So why not focus upon the ones that are not only more willing, but also more interested in genuinely playing
• Consider upfront what we’ll do about team damage from either direct fire or ramming.  Do we think that penalties are the right approach?  Is there a better option?  E.g. disabling ramming (whilst I like that idea in WOT, less convinced in WoWS as I think it’s probably a good thing)
• Have big platoons, e.g. 5-6 ship squadrons or possibly bigger.  Sure they’d have tactical advantage over a completely random team.  However, they might also encourage players do the same and thus improve teamworking?
• Consider what to do about AFKers.  In WOT, a player gets XPS for doing NOTHING.  Just by hitting the battle button, he’ll get XPs.  To me, that’s a massive no no.  If a player hasn’t moved or fired, give them NOTHING.  Not saying we should penalise them, as it’s possible it was down to something outside of their control.  For all that, why give them any benefit at all?
• How to handle mods?  Do we really want them.  The more I see of them, the more I wonder if their negatives outweigh their benefits.  Should we ask for them to be removed?
• If you’re going to let the hoards in, consider the use of leagues, to separate those who genuinely want to play, from those who just “play for fun”. 

 

Don’t get me wrong, the above are NOT a full list of what SHOULD be done, only some ideas on what could be done.

What I’m hoping that we can do here are to discuss these are any ideas you have such that we as the player base can hopefully HELP WG.  Just because they’re the developers, doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ve thought of everything or are smarter than us.

[dan_can]

 

• On full release, a big influx of noob players, some of whom will be the same “tomatoes” that have destroyed gameplay in WOT.  Initially, they’ll be outnumbered by the experienced, but that’ll change just as it has. 
• Unless stopped, random games will turn into a lottery of who has the fewest tomatoes, as you know they’ll be the people who’ve AFK’ed to T10 Battleships and then will drop anchor in a corner of a map believe that their accuracy will be improved and then shell things at max range
• Decent games will be the province of the equivalent of team battles

 

Hm tomato lottery you say ? What will be the difference between then and the weekend beta and CBT start ?

 

Influx of new players will always result in "gameplay deterioration" (I put it in quotes for a reason before you take up your pitchforks and torches and start the elitism chants). So we bettter lay down some guidelines (report toxic behaviour and TKs)  now so that we can limit the affects this kind of behaviours will have in the future.

 

 

• Make the game pay to play, but maybe with a lower cost (e.g. $5/month).  The logic of this is simple.  WG themselves stated a little while ago that the worst players were those least willing to actually play.  So why not focus upon the ones that are not only more willing, but also more interested in genuinely playing

 

Kinda counteracts the whole F2P model doesn't it ? And even if you only spend 5 bucks during you whole WoWS carrer, it is still 5 bucks more for WG that you did not spend on a competitor's product.

And I really don't see the connection between bad player = not spending money on the game,e.g. those ppl that buy a T8 Prem tank and suddenly think that there are the reincanation of Erwin Rommel.

 

 

• Have big platoons, e.g. 5-6 ship squadrons or possibly bigger.  Sure they’d have tactical advantage over a completely random team.  However, they might also encourage players do the same and thus improve teamworking?

 

 3 ppl/div is enough imho. And also remember, divs can also negatively affect the outcome of a game if they don't work together or are just yolo'ing.

 

 Consider upfront what we’ll do about team damage from either direct fire or ramming.

 

TK/TDmg system will be implemented in the next patch (or its first iteration, so that WG can hammer out the details). Friendly ram damage is already pretty low (1HP/second if I recall correctly), and I don't mind it staying in the game as a tactical option.

 

 

• Consider what to do about AFKers.  In WOT, a player gets XPS for doing NOTHING.  Just by hitting the battle button, he’ll get XPs.  To me, that’s a massive no no.  If a player hasn’t moved or fired, give them NOTHING.  Not saying we should penalise them, as it’s possible it was down to something outside of their control.  For all that, why give them any benefit at all?

 

Not so easy at is sounds. Game might have crashed, phone call, emergency. Not all AFK'ers do this on purpose (mind you that I'm not defending this kind of behaviour). Not sure if WG is already thinking about some kind of battle activity monitor, but we already have bots in WoT that drive around your tank and even turn the turret and fire if certain triggers are activated.

 

 

• How to handle mods?  Do we really want them.  The more I see of them, the more I wonder if their negatives outweigh their benefits.  Should we ask for them to be removed?

 

Mods are coming in different flavours, but the most important facet should be that a vanilla game user (=without any ingame mods) should not be in a disadvantage compared to a mod user.

 

 If you’re going to let the hoards in, consider the use of leagues, to separate those who genuinely want to play, from those who just “play for fun”. 

 

Patience young padawan, we are just in CBT. CWs took a while to be implemented in WoT, and WoWp is still waiting for an official CW mode (the current one is run by the community...).

[Ast3lan]

We all have to start somewhere OP and we could start by stop calling other people tomatoes. I bet you will get wrecked in the first couple battles the same as the the rest of us until you find your playstyle and ship.

 

Atm its all peachy because its closed beta. Theres some frustration sometimes but nothing out of the ordinary so enjoy the ride.

[Shirio]

Not the bad Players (you call it "Tomatoes") destroyed WoT..

 

There were players that aggressive, racist, flaming and rude towards the rest of the players were. And with the large number of players, can be found just too many of these types of players...

[fnord_disc]

You can argue the same underlying data in a different way.

 

A skill and gameplay gradient is necessary because it means the game contains new players which enlarge the player base. Nobody starts off by being good, and not having bad players in a game implies the game does not have newer players. This is more or less the problem with games like Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance. It's a fantastic game and one of the greatest and most complex RTS ever made, but the high difficulty of playing to even very modest standards is also its biggest problem - the playerbase is very small, and not growing. It takes weeks to be anything but utterly terrible.

 

I think the problems you describe are not entirely applicable to WoWs because the game penalizes a lack of skill quite harshly. There is no derping around in a heavy tank and somehow still contributing positively - battleships are not heavy tanks. Anyone who refuses to improve will quickly be ejected by the first two waves of torpedo bombers or destroyer strikes.

 

What you describe as "tomatoes" are not the players that are bad - they're the players that refuse to improve. I don't think WoWs will have very many of these if the current design direction is kept.

[Mr_Sukebe]

Dan,

 

Thanks for your comments.

I very much appreciate it's early days and that there will be a LOT to do.  However, I'm conscious that if the design can be thought out sooner rather than later, it usually a good thing.  Additionally, the earlier you "manage" customer expectations the better.

 

I guess this is partly that I absolutely LOVE WOT as a game, but am just so depressed at what's happened to it as a result of the playerbase.  I see WoWS as a new opportunity to avoid doing the same again.

 

Ast3lan, on 06 May 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

We all have to start somewhere OP and we could start by stop calling other people tomatoes. I bet you will get wrecked in the first couple battles the same as the the rest of us until you find your playstyle and ship.

Atm its all peachy because its closed beta. Theres some frustration sometimes but nothing out of the ordinary so enjoy the ride.

 

 

Agreed, everyone has to start somewhere and I'm VERY happy to admit that in my first few games, I didn't have a clue.  I'm just concerned that WOT allows that mentality to move up through the ranks such that players can still be clueless even in a T10 tank.

IMO, that's a primary reason for toxicity in WOT, i.e. because you have some of the playerbase who WANT to play well and some that have just turned up "for a bit of fun".  Again, that's also fine, it's free to play after all.  Well, that is until you mix the two together at a level when people start to care (e.g. T8 and above).

 

WoWS is nowhere near that yet, but we can sit here and do nothing, or at least consider it and how to avoid it.

Remember that that point about "learning from our mistakes".

 

[mtm78]

 3 ppl/div is enough imho. And also remember, divs can also negatively affect the outcome of a game if they don't work together or are just yolo'ing.

 

You are saying this in a way which makes it look like the MM tries to balance platoons on each side, why otherwise would a division be negatively effecting a team if they don't work together ( this only makes sense if you expect the enemy division to work together by default )?

 

I wouldn't mind larger division, but then also restricted in classes / tiers. This is already the case atm for cv's and I think it would be nice to have large division with preset compositions. 1-2 BB's 3-4 CA/CC 3-4 DD 1 CV division, also spawning as a battle group instead of scattered over the map like it is now. 

[Phantombeast]

We all have to start somewhere OP and we could start by stop calling other people tomatoes.

 

+1 my friend. This and not the "so called bad" players is what destroyed WoT in the first place.

 

Therefore I 'm a big fan of no statistics or only fun ones in game ^^ But that will always only be a wish...

[Mr_Sukebe]

 

+1 my friend. This and not the "so called bad" players is what destroyed WoT in the first place.

 

Therefore I 'm a big fan of no statistics or only fun ones in game ^^ But that will always only be a wish...

 

 

Please see my comment above.  I have no issues with players learning and believe that this is what the lower tiers are for.  My concerns are aimed at upper tier games, where personally I'd like to think that players actually try to win and will put the effort in to do so.

If you believe that it's OK for a player to still be completely ineffective at T10, then please say so now, such that we understand that.

[dan_can]

WoT has 'Team Battles' that allow more tactical minded players to fight together. Randoms are and will always be just that : random. Just compare it to RL .A bunch of strangers with different languages and mindsets are foced to work together to achieve a common goal. There is areason why team building plays such a huge part in sports & business.

 

 I'm just concerned that WOT allows that mentality to move up through the ranks such that players can still be clueless even in a T10 tank.

 

It will happen, not only because the grind-heavy nature of the game, meaning that even a some1 with zero intentions to actually learn about game mechanics will eventually unlock a T10 if he/she just plays enough battles. Another milestone will be the implementation of  WG's Unified Account.

Given what I saw in WoWp (ppl unlocking T9/10 planes that they thought were the strongest, without having a clue how to actually play the game and getting rofl'stomped) the chances are pretty high that history will repeat itself.

 

 You are saying this in a way which makes it look like the MM tries to balance platoons on each side, why otherwise would a division be negatively effecting a team if they don't work together ( this only makes sense if you expect the enemy division to work together by default )?

 

Well, more ppl/div means more influence for those players to affect the outcome of a battle, regardless of the outcome. If they work together and the enemy team has no divisons that they can possibly destroy the enemy team single handidly by just focus-firing one one enemy ship after another.

On the other hand, if they just believe in strength in numbers and have absolutly no clue what they are doing, than you already have cut down your teams fighting ability by 1/3.

 

 I wouldn't mind larger division, but then also restricted in classes / tiers. This is already the case atm for cv's and I think it would be nice to have large division with preset compositions. 1-2 BB's 3-4 CA/CC 3-4 DD 1 CV division, also spawning as a battle group instead of scattered over the map like it is now. 

 

Sounds good in theory, but I can already see the topics that would pop up as soon as ppl are getting floored by those kind of 5/6player divisions. It will not be like "division=win" situation, but good players working together (especially if they use voice comm) will act as a force multiplier. How will this be fair to a solo player ?

 

[mtm78]

Well maybe the solo player should division up then? The game might add some actual working voice coms ( not the one's in wot please lol ), thus removing the need for external application for randoms to communicate properly. Idk, maybe those kind of battles will be added someday as an additional game mode which would be fine with me

 

Edit: btw focus fire works in randoms with bobs like me if you bind a key to the command and he is in my range I will always focus fire to remove guns from the enemy 

[Mr_Sukebe]

Dan,

Good thoughts.

 

So I guess a question upfront about allowing "ineffective" (let me use that term instead of tomatoes as hopefully it won't be interpreted quite as badly), should we:

 - Just accept that we'll end up with ineffective players in T10 ships and say "hey, that's ok".

 - At least try to slow down the ability of AFK players to get to T10 by giving them zero XPs for doing absolutely nothing

 - Restrict say T9 and T10 games to players that are "effective"

 - Deliberately segregate say T8-10 games such that we let the inneffective go have fun together, whilst the players who do care can have a game and expect some teamwork

 

Ref the comment about team battles support "team work".  I understand that comment, however, that's not any use to someone grinding say a T9 vehicle.

 

Ref larger divisions, yes, they might not be fair on the solo player, but is that maybe a good thing?  Might encourage them to find a team.  Just a thought.

 

[Vanhal]

 

• Make the game pay to play, but maybe with a lower cost (e.g. $5/month).  The logic of this is simple.  WG themselves stated a little while ago that the worst players were those least willing to actually play.  So why not focus upon the ones that are not only more willing, but also more interested in genuinely playing
• Consider upfront what we’ll do about team damage from either direct fire or ramming.  Do we think that penalties are the right approach?  Is there a better option?  E.g. disabling ramming (whilst I like that idea in WOT, less convinced in WoWS as I think it’s probably a good thing)
• Have big platoons, e.g. 5-6 ship squadrons or possibly bigger.  Sure they’d have tactical advantage over a completely random team.  However, they might also encourage players do the same and thus improve teamworking?
• Consider what to do about AFKers.  In WOT, a player gets XPS for doing NOTHING.  Just by hitting the battle button, he’ll get XPs.  To me, that’s a massive no no.  If a player hasn’t moved or fired, give them NOTHING.  Not saying we should penalise them, as it’s possible it was down to something outside of their control.  For all that, why give them any benefit at all?
• How to handle mods?  Do we really want them.  The more I see of them, the more I wonder if their negatives outweigh their benefits.  Should we ask for them to be removed?
• If you’re going to let the hoards in, consider the use of leagues, to separate those who genuinely want to play, from those who just “play for fun”. 

 

My feedback about your ideas:

1. No comments. Or at least not ones that would not be edited by moderators.

2. Team damage is rare and almost only torpedoes. In next patch it will be adressed by penalties for teamkilling. Ramming is not a problem above tier 4 (and none at all when we consider damage)

3. Bigger DIVISIONS would make random unbalanced to the point of unplayability. It would not improve teamworking, it will make players go away as half-team divisions wil roflstomp everyone else.

4. Something changed? Last when i checked if someone was AFK entire battle they would get no xp (unless rammed by enemy thus dealing some damage). Same here.

5. Look at point 1.

6. Leagues... maybe good idea but would need A LOT of consideration. Oh, and a lot more of players.

 

Overall you post just reeks of contempt, i suggest you start your moral crusade against "tomatoes" or players "having fun" (seriously, just why that is bad, it's a game...) by improving your own attitude.

 

And i suggest you first play a little more, 6 battles of which only one is above tier 2. Yet you know all about this game...

 

 

 

[mtm78]

Dan,

Good thoughts.

 

So I guess a question upfront about allowing "ineffective" (let me use that term instead of tomatoes as hopefully it won't be interpreted quite as badly), should we:

 - Just accept that we'll end up with ineffective players in T10 ships and say "hey, that's ok".

 - At least try to slow down the ability of AFK players to get to T10 by giving them zero XPs for doing absolutely nothing

 - Restrict say T9 and T10 games to players that are "effective"

 - Deliberately segregate say T8-10 games such that we let the inneffective go have fun together, whilst the players who do care can have a game and expect some teamwork

 

Ref the comment about team battles support "team work".  I understand that comment, however, that's not any use to someone grinding say a T9 vehicle.

 

Ref larger divisions, yes, they might not be fair on the solo player, but is that maybe a good thing?  Might encourage them to find a team.  Just a thought.

 

 

If a player's ship does not move the entire match ( afk / ctd / disconnected ) he will get 0 xp already afaik. 

 

If you restrict access based on effectiveness you're costing WG money. so no that won't ever happen.

 

You can ask for added game modes though, and I hope they will add both clan based and 'large division' based competitive play. 

[Mr_Sukebe]

 

My feedback about your ideas:

1. No comments. Or at least not ones that would not be edited by moderators.

2. Team damage is rare and almost only torpedoes. In next patch it will be adressed by penalties for teamkilling. Ramming is not a problem above tier 4 (and none at all when we consider damage)

3. Bigger DIVISIONS would make random unbalanced to the point of unplayability. It would not improve teamworking, it will make players go away as half-team divisions wil roflstomp everyone else.

4. Something changed? Last when i checked if someone was AFK entire battle they would get no xp (unless rammed by enemy thus dealing some damage). Same here.

5. Look at point 1.

6. Leagues... maybe good idea but would need A LOT of consideration. Oh, and a lot more of players.

 

Overall you post just reeks of contempt, i suggest you start your moral crusade against "tomatoes" or players "having fun" (seriously, just why that is bad, it's a game...) by improving your own attitude.

 

And i suggest you first play a little more, 6 battles of which only one is above tier 2. Yet you know all about this game...

 

 

 

 

Van,

Apologies if my thread appears to be one of contempt.  NOT intended.

I'm very aware that I know virtually NOTHING about how WoWS plays at the moment.

My comments are purely based upon 5 years of seeing how WOT has turned from being an great game, to an ace game undermined by the quality and toxicity of it's playerbase.  Even now, I can see massive promise for WoWS.  Problem is that I just don't want to see it go the same way as WOT.

Please bear with me if if seems like I'm being a doom-monger, not trying to be.

 

 

 

[Kyono]

Polite community? Sure I've seen some really polite people in matches, but the level of toxicity is rapidly on the rise. Heck I see toxic comments most matches these days and have a few screenshots that would make you sick to your stomach.

 

 

[Vanhal]

 

Van,

Apologies if my thread appears to be one of contempt.  NOT intended.

I'm very aware that I know virtually NOTHING about how WoWS plays at the moment.

My comments are purely based upon 5 years of seeing how WOT has turned from being an great game, to an ace game undermined by the quality and toxicity of it's playerbase.  Even now, I can see massive promise for WoWS.  Problem is that I just don't want to see it go the same way as WOT.

Please bear with me if if seems like I'm being a doom-monger, not trying to be.

 

Well, understandable.

 

 have a few screenshots that would make you sick to your stomach.

 

Gimme 

[Zenith]

Smaller community = less instances of toxicity. As soon as OBT starts, get ready for a crap-storm of biblical proportions.

[mtm78]

Smaller community = less instances of toxicity. As soon as OBT starts, get ready for a crap-storm of biblical proportions.

 

Likely yes, predetermined definitely not. Well actually, no I can't deny it, there be a shitstorm a brewin fo sure. But it's up to both the community and support to determine how long it will last. People who join in and behave like they are used to in another WG title, well two things can happen.

 

Scenario 1: Step 1 -> community doesn't bother reporting excesses of toxicity and / or step 2 -> Support doesn't handle such complaints in a visible and thorough manner. Result:  the same community as we all know and love from WoT.

 

Scenario 2: Step 1 -> community is diligent and attempts to expel those who are working against them and step 2 -> Support handles such cases in a visible and thorough manner. Result: a lively, tolerable, open and long living community.

 

But hey that's just my 

 

 

[Zenith]

It's all but inevitable really, you just have to look at WoT to see what we'll get in the coming months. Does it suck? Yes. Can we do anything about it? Truthfully, no. 

[krautjaeger]

I have a feeling that when the novelty wears off a lot of people that has no or little patience will move on or return to WoT. This is not a fast paced action-game, you can easily go the whole match duration. I'm not sure we will have a lasting issue with some of the things we see in WoT.

[Vanhal]

Smaller community = less instances of toxicity. As soon as OBT starts, get ready for a crap-storm of biblical proportions.

 

Define "smaller". I would rather have infinite toxicity and turn off the chat than have deserted game. Besides, WG decided long ago that player number is their top priority.

[Spikey_The_Cat]

And so "it" begins....

 

LOL it's feckwits like the op that ruin the game with your continual bollocks and whining about "tomatoes" and obsession with win rate and "stats" that ruined WOT (for me at least). Go back to playing WOW or something where you can inspect somebody's gear before you accept them to go on "your" raid. 

 

Hint: Your willy won't grow any bigger if you "win"... at World of Warships, even if you think it will 

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

And so "it" begins....

 

LOL it's feckwits like the op that ruin the game with your continual bollocks and whining about "tomatoes" and obsession with win rate and "stats" that ruined WOT (for me at least). Go back to playing WOW or something where you can inspect somebody's gear before you accept them to go on "your" raid.

 

Hint: Your willy won't grow any bigger if you "win"... at World of Warships, even if you think it will 

 

 

Don't you think It's a bit ironic, that I temper my OP with a statement that I'll try to use "ineffective" instead, whilst you're happy to directly insult me.

Go on, please do tell who's bringing the least pleasant attitude to WoWS?

 

I wouldn't mind, but I don't remember making any mention of stats or WR in my OP.  What I talked about was teamwork and quality of gameplay.

[sam_]

It's all but inevitable really, you just have to look at WoT to see what we'll get in the coming months. Does it suck? Yes. Can we do anything about it? Truthfully, no. 

 

At least they could actively try to do something like Riot is doing with LoL. Algorithms to mark players who use excessive amounts of potentially abusive words and phrases. Automated short chat bans for minor offenses and long or permanent total bans for repeated toxic behavior.

 

I've never understood why WG (and many other F2P companies) are letting the few loud arseholes destroy the gaming experience.

 

E: And the stat and skill based discrimination could be reduced by 95% by not allowing XVM-like mods to exist.