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Rolle_

Tired of all the firestarters

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First off, there's probably a tread like this on the forum, but nothing showed up quickly on a search, so if there's another post, feel free to link it.

 

I'm interested in knowing if anyone else is starting to feel like the amount of ships capable of completely burning you to death is becoming excessive.

I don't mind the HE gameplay too much, but it feels like most games for the last couple of months is mostly about ships hiding in some way and raining down shells on the enemy. Or the few speedy gunboats that just runs circles around enemies and pumps HE shells until the other ship looks like a failed attempt at a Well done steak (which is not the way to eat steak btw!). :Smile_izmena:

 

I have noticed from my friends that are fairly new to this game that the fire starter ships are the ones that are causing most of the issues and grief. And yes there are counters to these ships, like all ships, but these types of ships seems to cause a fairly negative attitude for the victim, and I'm wondering if this is really a healthy way that the game is moving to? I have also checked quite a few of my battle reports, and a large majority of them is showing a really high HE / Fire damage compared to AP damage, not counting the occasional instant deletion from a well placed volley.

 

I personally think that HE and the fire chance/damage as it's right now, is far too high, and the risk/reward seems off. I think that HE does fulfill a purpose, and it's a great counter against certain ships, but the overall damage and possibility of fires should be toned down. It's not very skill intensive to to lobb 40 shells into another ship that couldn't fight back and start 4 fires. Yes exaggeration but it's for the sake of the argument. '

There's of course other skills involved in getting into position/dodging, but I'm focusing on the fire chance/ damage part.

I'm not guilt free and I do play with ships that are very capable fire starters, and from my experience, it's fairly easy to get to the top of the score board without really putting yourself in harms way.

 

So after some rambling, What do you think?

Do you think the fire starter ships are really bringing something positive to the game nd has a place in the meta? Or would you like to see changes being made to reduce the amount of bonfire ships?

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Yes, there are other people who do not know how to handle fire. They just need to learn.

 

When you think you have problems with fire, setup your ship for endurance. If you did not do that, then you do not really have a problem with fire and are just annoyed by it.

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Dealing with HE spam is something a player needs to learn to do. It is 100% repairable, after all. 

 

If you play enough games at Tier III and IV - where HE spam is not so prevalent, and where BBs do have time to learn about the fact they don't have to put the first fire out, and how not to overextend, then you'll be better off later on. If you don't, and you jump up to higher tiers and get toasted by an Atlanta, Smolensk, Nelson or any of the world-class firestarters out there, then there's no-one else to blame but yourself. 

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While I was against CVs cuz I enjoyed surface ships more, I switched these past weeks to them and the games are much more calm now. Occasionally a team will probe my inner demon but I'm finding I don't mind HE ships at all. I try to remove them from game as fast as possible if it is possible. It doesn't work in all games but usually I manage to make their life difficult. Most of them are very squishy when exposed.

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14 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Yes, there are other people who do not know how to handle fire. They just need to learn.

 

When you think you have problems with fire, setup your ship for endurance. If you did not do that, then you do not really have a problem with fire and are just annoyed by it.

 

2 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Dealing with HE spam is something a player needs to learn to do. It is 100% repairable, after all. 

 

If you play enough games at Tier III and IV - where HE spam is not so prevalent, and where BBs do have time to learn about the fact they don't have to put the first fire out, and how not to overextend, then you'll be better off later on. If you don't, and you jump up to higher tiers and get toasted by an Atlanta, Smolensk, Nelson or any of the world-class firestarters out there, then there's no-one else to blame but yourself. 

Well a start at least. First is regarding a counter by modules and captain skills, and the other is pretty much a "GIT GUD" statement. Neither really answered the question I was asking, more of statements regarding counters and player skills.

 

Both of you have a fair bit of experience in this game, and do keep in mind that your reality is perhaps not the reality for most people that are currently playing.

I'm fully aware that there are full builds to counter these ships by tanking the damage giving you time to get away, and also to perhaps not rush that suspicious looking smokescreen if you know you'll get burnt to a crisp before you ever reach it.

Counters will exist to most things, and it's a "get some give up some" situation, and this is most certainly not a counter, it will at most reduce the damage somewhat. 15% reduced time if I remember correctly, but will not to anything to negate the barrage of general HE damage hitting you.

"GIT GUD" statements are perhaps a bit of a cliché I'd say, as that will only happen if the game is enjoyable enough for a person to actually commit to reach 5000, 10.000 or more battles. And this statement is pretty much saying "don't be stupid and don't get shot" which perhaps is a bit of a stretch to request from players of a game which is very much designed around the fact that shells are raining down around you.

 

I will elaborate a bit more in case it was unclear what I'm asking.
My question is focused on the playstyle of firestarter ships and the risk/reward factor for being able to staying out of harms way from your intended target while being able to cause a very high amount of damage.

And I simply want to know the opinion of the firestarter ships, as they are at least from my experience causing negative feelings (I see this in the general chats, and I get asked about these ships by friends on other platforms), and this is a bit concerning as these could potentially be people prepared to invest money in the game if they think it's fun enough. And therefor would help keeping this game online for a foreseeable future.

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As I said, there are other people who do not know how to handle them. These people can develop negative feelings. Failure does that.

Contrary to other ships, HE spammers have a hard time taking out an enemy with one salvo. The typical victims of these hits are usually HE spammers. In other words, they get easily deleted, unless playing carefully (using islands, smokes, smart positioning).

 

One easy way to learn about HE spammers is to play them.

Either you get a deeper insight how to handle them or you find them so easy to play and stick to them (unlikely, there is a reason why BB are the most popular class).

 

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1 hour ago, Rolle_ said:

 

I will elaborate a bit more in case it was unclear what I'm asking.
My question is focused on the playstyle of firestarter ships and the risk/reward factor for being able to staying out of harms way from your intended target while being able to cause a very high amount of damage.

 

I'm not sure what you sail but these firestarter ships usually take for ever to 'do a very high amount of damage', and fire damage is fully repairable. So learn how to mitigate that type of damage though ship and captain builds and tactics. Because if you are unwilling to learn that and only want to encounter ships you sail yourself your out of luck: this game and player base isn't going to accommodate you.

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Honestly starting to agree with the Ops sentiment if what he really means is the powercreep arms race of glass-cannon vs armor thickness (Kremlin says hi).

 

The result of increased lethality is stale campy gameplay, which I for one have gotten tired of.

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Cruiser deal in average less damage compared to battleships at every tier if I’m not mistaken; if you tone down HE fire chance and fire damage how can, let’s say, my Atago or my Charles Martel kill a North Carolina, whose 38mm bridge shatters 203mm HE shells? 

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26 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Honestly starting to agree with the Ops sentiment if what he really means is the powercreep arms race of glass-cannon vs armor thickness (Kremlin says hi).

 

The result of increased lethality is stale campy gameplay, which I for one have gotten tired of.

Tier X has always been a campy snooze fest even before the influx of high tier low Calibre high fire chance guns. It didn't get more campy, the campers now get burned down. Fire damage can be healed and builds can be build to tank it. I don't see an issue, just burning campers that always camped already before.

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Okey I see that this topic went in a different direction, and not really getting an answer to the initial questions, which in hindsight was perhaps expected.
 

To answer this:

10 hours ago, Europizza said:

I'm not sure what you sail

I sail mostly tier VII - X German BBs and US, UK and German Cruisers, and I have some experience in several destroyer lines, but not something to brag about.

As I said before, this isn't really an issue for me personally, and I'm very much an average level player.
I mostly manage to avoid being burnt to a crisp, and the few times it happens I or my team was outplayed or made a mistake and it's just to adopt, improve and overcome.

 

To clarify why I'm asking the question about these ships, is because I have noticed negative feelings about these ships from newer players, and I find it a bit concerning. As yes there's always an argument to be made that people should simply learn the game, and I do agree with that, don't get me wrong.

But a negative experience is still a negative experience and if the game isn't fun for new players, there could be issues in the long run.

So don't take this as a rant, this is more of a question about the current way that it seems the game is moving towards, and if it's a meta that people are enjoying or would perhaps like to move away from?

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Rolle_ said:

So don't take this as a rant, this is more of a question about the current way that it seems the game is moving towards, and if it's a meta that people are enjoying or would perhaps like to move away from?

Players are complaining for over four years.

The number of BB in battle got even bigger since then.

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52 minuti fa, ColonelPete ha scritto:

Players are complaining for over four years.

The number of BB in battle got even bigger since then.

 

I hope so, otherwise my Smolensk wouldn’t be so fun :cap_haloween:

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1 hour ago, Rolle_ said:

 

But a negative experience is still a negative experience and if the game isn't fun for new players, there could be issues in the long run.

So don't take this as a rant, this is more of a question about the current way that it seems the game is moving towards, and if it's a meta that people are enjoying or would perhaps like to move away from?

 

 

Question: if HE spam is an issue, why not play something that doesn't suffer from it?

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If you'd ask advice how to deal with HE spam I might be saying something useful. Regarding your question: no I don't like being shot at. Be it with HE, AP, torps. But it's part of the game. So no, HE spam has not been a deterring factor for me in wows. I learned to adapt and how not to affect my matches too much in most of the times.

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The way that HE shells work in game is totally unrealistic, but are generally in place so that the smaller ships can deal with BB's who would otherwise totally dominate (*cough*) the game. WG take this balancing concept and play around with it, at times to ridiculous,levels, the 'spike's' of HE effectiveness are, in theory, balanced out by emphasising other vulnerabilities. eg. Atlanta is extremely fragile and not very sneaky, fast or manoeverable, but has very capable HE. The Khabaovsk initially was OP, it has been nerfed, Smolensk however is unlikely to be nerfed given that it is not a silver ship so will probably be withdrawn at some stage, then sold at inflated prices, it is not OP, it is currently in 'nightmare'  mode, it's not invulnerable by any means, just painful.

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26 minutes ago, philjd said:

The way that HE shells work in game is totally unrealistic, but are generally in place so that the smaller ships can deal with BB's who would otherwise totally dominate (*cough*) the game. ...

 This is the main point ...

What do you want to do in a Cruiser, if you were not able to burn a BB down ?

A DD migt be able to rely more on torpedoes

A BB works with the big guns

A CV has its flying cancer

But what would a cruiser do, if he could not spam HE ?

The problems of the recent italian cruisers give a hint to that problem. SAP is a nice idea, but you have to work a lot harder than in standard cruisers with HE

 

So yes, HE spam might have gotten out of hand a little bit, but i dont see a reasonable alternative right now

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I have no problems with fires most of the time.... I can manage them, retreat, heal and come back to fight.

Plus I like collecting Fireproof and Dreadnought.

 

But I agree that WG should not pump out high ROF HE spamming cruisers with good fire chance like Smolensk.

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3 hours ago, Rolle_ said:

Okey I see that this topic went in a different direction, and not really getting an answer to the initial questions, which in hindsight was perhaps expected.
 

To answer this:

I sail mostly tier VII - X German BBs and US, UK and German Cruisers, and I have some experience in several destroyer lines, but not something to brag about.

As I said before, this isn't really an issue for me personally, and I'm very much an average level player.
I mostly manage to avoid being burnt to a crisp, and the few times it happens I or my team was outplayed or made a mistake and it's just to adopt, improve and overcome.

 

To clarify why I'm asking the question about these ships, is because I have noticed negative feelings about these ships from newer players, and I find it a bit concerning. As yes there's always an argument to be made that people should simply learn the game, and I do agree with that, don't get me wrong.

But a negative experience is still a negative experience and if the game isn't fun for new players, there could be issues in the long run.

So don't take this as a rant, this is more of a question about the current way that it seems the game is moving towards, and if it's a meta that people are enjoying or would perhaps like to move away from?

 

 

Well in that case the HE spam actually suits new players because there is no knowledge involved other then how to hit stuff with floaty shells and how not to get blapped. The latter might be a bit hard to learn initially because it invloves awareness and other :etc_swear:. There have been negative feelings against DD's, CV's and BB's. So we might want to move the meta away from any of these being too much to handle. And we do. It's about time there are cruisers in game that are actually an annoyance to everyone else for a change, and the only toys they have to do that is AA and HE. SAP is failing at it pretty hard. ;-)

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Yesterday I was playing my Kaga, and someone wrote at the start of the game: "Great, just wait for the cancer to begin."

 

When I figured out that he didn't mean me, but our Smolensk, I got all warm and fuzzy inside.

CV are finally not the most hated ships in the game anymore - truly a day to remember. ;)

 

I think this answers your question about how satisfied the general playerbase is with the current HE meta.

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I think people over react to this - much like with CV's, the issue is partly psychological. If a BB blaps you from the map in a single salvo, you might not be happy, but it's not as annoying as being repeatedly hit by hundreds of shells over a period of time from a target you might not even be able to see or hit, while being constantly set on fire. This results in people being triggered and raging about it in chat and on the forum. However, both situations can be avoided with proper awareness and positioning. I'd be interested to know how many of those people vocal about the evils of Smolensk actually check team lineups at battle start, use an enlarged mini map with last known positions on, and generally spend any time in thinking what could possibly happen on each cap and how to position to deal with these eventualities. A Smolensk is extremely effective against people with bad awareness - it becomes very limited in it's abilities against people who think ahead and position accordingly.

 

Now, are there too many fire spammers being released? Sure. I can agree with this. Is this problem as bad as people say it is, for example, is it causing the bb's to hang back? It's an easy conclusion to make, but here's an issue with this. Back when I started playing, ships like Aki-Kita-Haru, Worcester, Smolensk, Friesland, etc. simply didn't exist. The most dangerous fire spammer was considered to be the Zao. And guess what, the most complained about thing in the game was still the camping bb's that snipe from max range and score last. Walk away from that with whatever conclusions you wish. Too many fire spammers? Sure. Smolensk needing a nerf? Perhaps. All of this causing the sky to fall? I'll respectfully disagree on that one.

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HE spamming seems out of proportion, IMO in part because WG has completely messed up the combat roles of their ships. One factor that makes HE spamming more annoying is you really don't have any effective counter measures, especially when they combine either smoke or island cover with it.

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8 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

you really don't have any effective counter measures,

 

Spoiler

DXG4KFgM0Vg3Oxb9rID28MMw926yvldaQnl09psf

 

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8 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

HE spamming seems out of proportion, IMO in part because WG has completely messed up the combat roles of their ships. One factor that makes HE spamming more annoying is you really don't have any effective counter measures, especially when they combine either smoke or island cover with it.

We have multiple threads were counter measures were discussed. There are a lot.

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1 minute ago, Lebedjev said:

 

  Hide contents

DXG4KFgM0Vg3Oxb9rID28MMw926yvldaQnl09psf

 

 

1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

We have multiple threads were counter measures were discussed. There are a lot.

 

Which is why I said 'effective'.

 

Furthermore, I did not just mean damage control or captain points, I meant being able to actually engage those HE spammers and drive them off. In all situations, superior fire power should be the one that forces the enemy to retreat, whether we are talking about just two opposing ships or two opposing forces.

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